Elves at Helm's deep

[Orc]

Peter Jackson has apparently done a great deal more with Helm's Deep than is in the books. Rather than the non-combatants running off one direction and the soldiers headding to the Hornburg, everyone goest to Helm's Deep. This makes sense from a movie perspective as the audience has fewer locations / threads to keep track of.

However, PJ has also added elves into the fray....

The battle of Helm's Deep is rumored to last about 45 min long. Part of this will be the elves performing a delaying action at the dike - an outter defense before reaching the walls of Helm's Deep. In the books this action was performed by men of Rohon rather than elves.

What do you think of the elves being added to the battle of Helm's Deep?

[Tar-Ancalimë]

he shouldn't have fooled with them--why add them anyway?-- but l'm sure it will look great. my take on all his changes is, it's not right, but it's not wrong because it still manages to make one heck of a good movie.

I don't mind it, I don't think it's going to be bad, I just think he shouldn't have fooled with the whole changing the book thing.


(come on orc... vote... you don't have to be afraid to give us your opinion!)

[Lady Ashley]

We need not Elves at HD....who'll protect Lorien??? Especially if they get slaughtered??

Well, I suppose that's what they get if they go there.

Besides, has Peter Jackson ever heard the phrase "The Last Alliance of Men and Elves"? Note the word "last" The Men of Rohan an take care of themselves, they're big boys. I love Elves, but gosh!! War marches on their own lands! (Or will it movie-wise? Hmm.)

And why don't they just bring the Dwarves while they're at it? After all, they're bringing Leggy's peeps so why not Gimli's?

Yet...let's see what's going down first. THEN we can roast PJ. Over an open flame. or...:fanboy:

(Note: I was being sarcastic about the Dwarves.)

[Orc]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
(come on orc... vote... you don't have to be afraid to give us your opinion!)

You've been here long enought to know better than that... I almost always give my opinions....pfbbt

:grin:

Anyway....

My initial response to the the idea of elves at Helm's Deep was: "What the bloody heck are you doing PJ!?!" It's wrong on several levels. First off, it is a major deviation from the story. Tolkien didn't put elves at Helm's Deep for a reason, don't mess with it. The WotR is predominantly a story of men, and their 'coming of age' in the world, a world that had previously been dominated by the likes of the dwarves and elves. The reader gets glimpses into the lives of both dwarves and elves through Gimli and Legolas, but neither of their respective races have a great role in the story line as it is portrayed "on screen". Both races are mentioned of fighting the dark powers"off screen" - i.e. we dont' see it happen, the dwarves at Lonely Mtn. and the elves at Lothlorien.

I think that having the elves hold the dike cheepens the sacrifices and struggle of the men of Rohon at the Fords of Isen and the Battle of Helm's Deep.

On the otherhand, it will undoutably make good footage for the film. Not to mention apease all the elf lovers out there. At least they get slaughered by the Uruk-hai wholesale!!! (Can't wait to see that one!) And at least they aren't coming to the rescue at the end of the battle to save Rohon. That would really cheepen the role of men in the WotR.

All in all, I'm against it. Let the elves flee to the west as they did in the books.

:Orc:

[Pil]

:o wow :Orc: !!!

I agree completely! The elves being at helm's deep goes against an ongoing theme that tolkein SPECIFICALLY included in many parts of lotr...the waning of the elves and the waxing of mankind...but NO! PJ OBVIOUSLY didn't REALISE that! :rolleyes: :angry:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I think he knows that as well as we... it'll just "make good footage for the film" and "apease all the elf lovers out there."
Originally posted by Orc
You've been here long enought to know better than that... I almost always give my opinions....pfbbt
I was teasing you... pfbbt

:grin: thx :Orc:

[Pil]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
it'll just "make good footage for the film"

It's sad that it has to be that way... :(

[Lady of Rohan]

:huh:

I like elves. They rock. Maybe it isn't true to the book but I think it will make a great movie! :thumbs:

Go elves!

[Bonos-Girl]

i like elves too but they should be protecting their own lands not other peoples IMO PJ should've left it like the book...there is absolutely no sense in cvhanging the battle to encorporate elves as well/

[Hans_Schuder]

Hmmm... well they're all very good reasons (except the one about leaving Lorien undefended - it's one company) just not anything to grind your teeth over or at least I won't have any reason to clench my fist at the screen. I'm not one to obsess over all the changes I guess, but that's just me. ;) One of those.

Texans don't huzah though - that's a yankee habit! :p YEEEEHAW

[Bonos-Girl]

i'm not really that upset about it but i would've preferred it to have been truer to the book. Whatever reasons tolkien had for the elves not taking part would still be there in the film!?! :huh:

[Belaqua]

i'm note sure either way really. It depends on how things go in the film, and how PJ does it. But still, i am a bit annoyed about the fact that he's deviating from the book in a major way like that

[Ephel Duath]

he shudda stuck to the book. elves r great n all but if tolkien didnt want elves then we shudnt have elves:dragon:

[Hans_Schuder]

Probably, but I'm not sure he would have even been comfortable with the idea of these films in the first place, so it's not always good to stick with what the Professor would have wanted as the bottom line. Sort of like the crumbling stairs at Moria if it works great in the film I'm sure it won't be much of a distraction. Not that deviating too much from the Professor is a good thing mind you, but I wouldn't necessarily make it my mantra.

Anyhow, I'm not all that convinced one company constitutes a rapprochement and is a situation not more akin to South and Central American peoples sending regiments of volunteers to fight for France in WW I to stress their moral support as opposed to a political/military alliance. Then again, in mythic stories and legends even small actions can be given larger importance more often than they would under more realistic circumstances.

( I admit I will like seeing those Elven nagamaki-naoshi polearms in action again :whoohoo: For those that are bothered though... hopefully, it won't prove more than a nuisance :blush: )

[Tar-Palantir]

Well.. the elves were supposed to be fading, and leaving Middle-Earth, and also if you know that a major battle is going to take place somewhere, why send both your army and you civilians?
And why does Theoden say "Lead the people to Helm's Deep" to EOWYN? He is for crying out loud going there himself! HE can lead them, isn't he King? And in Dunharrow the others would have held out for longer if Helm's Deep fell.

[Orc]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir

And why does Theoden say "Lead the people to Helm's Deep" to EOWYN? He is for crying out loud going there himself! HE can lead them, isn't he King? And in Dunharrow the others would have held out for longer if Helm's Deep fell.

That's a good point - I think we'll have to see how it's portrayed in the movie to see if it works or not.

I think the reason behind Eowyn and the civilians going to Helm's Deep are as follows:

1) They want to play up the tension between Eowyn, Arwen and Aragorn to add more to the role of the female characters in the moive.

2) Movie practicality. There are numerous story lines in the book that are follwed from Sam & Frodo to Aragorn and co., to the adventures of Gandalf and co. which go off on their own for a bit, as well as Eowyn and co and Theoden's army. To have all of thing going on on the screen would require lots of switching back and fourth between plot lines and probably make for a disjointed movie. By putting everyone in Helm's Deep together you join several of these stroy lines making for a better flowing film.

I'm not thrilled about the elves being at Helm's Deep as that's a pretty major deviation from the books and diminishes the idea of the elves fading while men are taking over the world and now bearing the burden of fending off the foces of evil. OK, so the wholescale slaughter of the elves by the Uruk-hai is going to be cool! (Go Uruk-hai!!! :Orc: )

Throwing everyone together at Helm's deep makes cinematic sense to me, especially for those out there who haven't read the books

[Aratorë]

I don't like the fact that PJ's putting them there, but, like a few people have said, it'll make one heck of battle scene.:thumbs:

I say go elves!! At this point I really don't care about things like this that PJ is screwing with; after all he is trying to make it be a popular movie too. I look at the movie being a really cool tribute to Tolkien's books rather than a word for word book to film rendition.

But I do hope he doesn't deviate too much more by the time we hit RotK....

[Tar-Palantir]

Yes Orc, cinematic sense, but not logical sense! :grin:

[Lady Melody]

The elves are supposed to fade from the face of Middle Earth...

I, however have no disregard about the elves being in the movie, but they better be damn good at fighting.

[Finrod Felagund]

One of the few changes I am looking forward to seeing. Silmarillion is my favorite work (History of the Elves basically) so the more Elf envolvement the better. Of all the changes this one may be the easiest to swallow for Tolkien fans. Its a story addition rather than combining several facets of the story (Arwen's role).
People are fascinated by the Elves for some reason and giving them more of a part is a way of PJ servicing this. Maybe he too is fascinated.

[Narsil's weilder]

It was a fair idea although I'm sick of Elves saving the day. How is the legend that Helm's Deep is never conqured when men defend it true when half the soldiers are elves?

[Tar-Palantir]

Righty! The War of the Ring was supposed to make an end of the rule of the Elves and the beginning of the dominion of men.

[Greybeard]

When I first heard about the Elves coming to Helm's Deep it seemed like a bad idea, but after having watched the film several times must admit it works. Though I don't care for the actor playing Haldir, his dying glance at the bodies of his comrades evokes the passing of Elvish power better than any speech might.

[Daughter of Gondor]

Originally posted by Bonos-Girl
i like elves too but they should be protecting their own lands not other peoples IMO PJ should've left it like the book...there is absolutely no sense in cvhanging the battle to encorporate elves as well/

The elves were running away from their lands. Why bother protecting it?

[Tar-Palantir]

So that they can run away.

[Daughter of Gondor]

Sure... I'll pretend that makes sense. entdraught

[Tar-Palantir]

It does make sense. They did not make it in time to run away before the war began. Therefore they had to defend their people when they ran away.

[Glarawen]

It was alright i didnt REALLY REALLY hate it but i didnt think it was really fiting for me it just didnt belong other than that i loved the parts bout helm's deep

[Fairawen]

I really, REALLY hate it when Petr Jackson puts things in the movie that never happened, it's almost like you can point out the things that he put in there, even if you didn't read the books! (Ok, not a whole bunch!)
I mean, in the Felowship they show Frodo like he's a nebie at everything in life, they show that Arwen saved him from turning into a Wraith when really he saved himself (which, by the way, would have showed that he wasn't a weak little hobbit), he made it look like Aragorn knew that Frodo was leaving way before he left, and now they put elves in Helm's Deep?!?!? What'll he think up next, Gandalf going to the next level of "Hot Pink"????
I'm sorry if I upset anyone, I just really feel strongly about this! I say, "Leave things they way they were supposed to be, they're better that way!"

[Narisunell]

i liked it with elves. IMO, they were simply helping out. after all, they are as strong when they are united as they are weak when divided. personally i don't mind changes that much, plus it enhanced the movie a bit, i think. but Tar should undoubtedly have sumthin to say to me... :rolleyes: lol

[Melian]

I think that PJ felt that in the book, the elves were deserting a sinking ship. He did not want to show the elves as leaving just when they were needed most. I think he felt that they would not have left Middle Earth completely without aid, thus the elves at Helm's Deep.

[Narisunell]

well spoken, Melian.

Hurrah for Elves! lol :p

[Ceri Bloom]

yer i totally agree guys, i meen the elves wern't that heartless were they? besides the vitctory would never have come about if the men didn't get back up from the elves

elves rock :rock: :rock:

[Orc]

Except that in the book there were two thousand Rohan troops rather than the 200 claimed in the movie.

[Ceri Bloom]

yer well everything sounds bad when u say it in that tone of voice!! besides, everything gets changed in movies dont it?

[Amithrellas]

I agree with Orc...The Elves at Helm's Deep just don't make sense. It was the Huorns that pulled everyone's bacon from the fire. I think that would have been better dramatically – with the dawn and Gandalf's return. Besides, a moving mass of shadowy Huorns, driving the Uruk-hai mental could have been quite a treat visually. (thinking of the moving topiaries from The Shining)
I don't even care for the fighting style of PJs Elves – they all move with one movement, like tinker toys attached at the hip lol

[Alatar]

i think that the changes in the movie will confuse people who are inspired by them to read the books, i have had heaps of freinds come up to me and ask "oi they left the elves going to helms deep out in the book, what's the go with that??"
so i think it would of been easier to just keep as close to the storyline of the books as possible

[Aranel of Mirkwood]

Why, one thing that confused me. Haldir said he brought word from Elrond of Rivendell. He comes from Lothlorien????

Oh and they shouldn't have added the elves. Though it was sad when Haldir died

[Ereinion]

I think that Haldir did came from Lorien,as it's his home, but he brought word from Elrond because he and Galadriel spoke to one another telepaticaly, and Galadriel told Haldir what Elrond said.

[Ceri Bloom]

yer but the elves were much appreciated in the movie. beside the movie was adapted from the book, so things are gonna be different arnt they?

[Narisunell]

i think you all have great points in this.

there were supposed to be 2000 Rohan troops, but i think the 200 made more sense, seeing as it (Rohan) wasn't very big, ya know? i don't think more than 8 hundred ppl could have lived in the town/city/thing anyway. feel free to correct me on this, as i haven't read the books in ages.

the Elves would have sent some ppl, cuz they aren't totally selfish, but they wouldn't have sent their entire army because, as is said in The Silm, they were rather jealous of the Men. only Elrond might have sent them, because he raised aragorn. but Galadriel and Celeborn might have sent a few, also, because he was like their grandson-in-law-to-be or whatever.

[Ceri Bloom]

yer rite on nari, u managed 2 confuzzle me again!! but wot ur saying kinda makes sense, in a twisted round-abouts sort of way

[Saruman]

There are many reasons why I didn't like the elves at Helm's Deep:

It made the men of Rohan seem incapable of defending themselves, and therefore would never survive once the elves had left ME and 'weren't there to help them out'.
It made the movie seem more about elves than men; characters like Haldir and Arwen were never meant to be in TTT. I don't mind Galadriel, who is a divine being and would naturally be surveying the story, but the rest of them (except Legolas of course) were unnecesssary.
It seemed a little unfair that the elves were being given much more screen time, and Gimli, the only dwarf who we actually see in the movies (apart from Gloin, whom we see very briefly at Rivendell) and thus the representative of his race, was reduced to comic relief. In fact, it would have been more logical that one of the ELVES had been the comic relief, as there were others to show that they weren't all comical.

I'm sorry Ceri, but I didn't like it!verymad

[Ceri Bloom]

thats ok Saruman, i just luv the elves, thats all. besides every1 is entitled 2 their own opinion rite? besides i liked Gimli being funny, cos it seemed rite in the movie..and Galadriel is not the Divine being Legolas is lol

[Lady Ashley]

Ooh...this a thread about one of my pet peeves...I totally do not like Elves being at HD.

Orc is right: they had enough Rohirrim at HD. Elves don't always run around saving everyone's rear. They have their own problems. The Men of Rohan, with Gandalf and the Huorns' help, wiped out every last Orc.

Yes, movies are a diff form of media, but that does not excuse messing with the storyline. Good grief, Theoden would not have only about 300 soldiers in his following, while Eomer had 2000. Well, considering that PJ banished him from the movie just to keep it "simple", he would have indeed a good number of men fed up with how Grima was running things.

And if one thought about it, logically, Eomer had left Meduseld with little guard when he went after the Orcs. That would explain the 300 soldiers. And why muster 1000 men to guard the city's inhabitants? There prolly were a certain number of soldiers left to go with Eowyn and the ppl to Dunharrow (book).

Wreckage! All that PJ did was wreckage with these changes! It's like a pond. A tiny ripple in the water will cause bigger ripples.

And When you change something, you have to invent something to have it where it is, making it further changed and more complicated----the exact opposite way PJ seems to want! The ripples become a tidal wave.

Yes, this all has to do with the Elves...poor Elves, now there numbers have been made fewer. Now they can't go protect their homeland!

As for the telepathy of Elrond and Galadriel...I believe there's a scene from the Ext where Galadriel and Elrond are actually in Lorien and yap about the war. It's quite clearly seen in the TT trailer on the Fellowship Ext DVD. It would seem Elrond had become pro-Men by the way he talked about they coudln't let them die or something...Quite a change! And he wasn't anti-Men either...he's half-Man in blood. Why call yourself weak? (Choise of what race you're counted with does not magically change your genes!)


So, all this to say it was stupid of PJ to send the poor Elves to HD just so they can be slaughtered for a division of Men they had no obligation to. (And don't we remember the phrase "The LAST Alliance of Men and Elves"?)

[Ceri Bloom]

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :elfeek: u sure have a lot 2 say Lady A rite on :thumbs: not that im agreeing with u or anything, but i thinks ts great we have ppl like u 2 uphold the honour in these threads :shhh: so that ppl like me :hyper: dont ruin them :grin:

[Saruman]

I'm sorry, the elves annoy me for some reason. Always poking their pointy ears where they aren't wanted - I ask you! lol

[Ceri Bloom]

well since their pinty ears are 1 of the cutest things about them...ill make u EAT sum!! but they were needed in the war in the movie so there pfbbt

[Saruman]

Actually, JRRT never mentioned pointy ears...
So you fancy the movie elves rather than his elves, which simply proves my point that the Elves at Helm's Deep deviated from the book too much.:batty:

[Ceri Bloom]

huh th only reason i watched the movie 2 start with is cos of the grace and beauty of the elves, i wanted 2 no how they would be portrayed in sceen...then i fell inlove with them!! but u cant help deviating if its unavoidable can u?? ill bet Pj could see no other way around this situation

[Narisunell]

i stick by what i said earlier.

another thing: the Last Alliance could mean the last alliance, as in the only one since then, instead of the LAST alliance as in the very last of all.

[Ceri Bloom]

or it could meen as in the last alliance of that age, but then a new age was begun, so more alliances!

[Ereinion]

There's a funny thing about Elves being at Helm's Deep - that was exactly Legolas' wish, he said so to Gimli, in the book, that he wishes there were a hundred archers from Mirkwood with them!

[Witch King of Angmar]

I think it detracted from the Men of Rohan. It was their sacrifice and bravery that smashed the armies of Saruman, not 300 elves or whatever. But filmwise it looked pretty good with the flights of arrows etc.

[Ereinion]

Originally posted by Witch King of Angmar
But filmwise it looked pretty good with the flights of arrows etc.

Especially when the poor blind Elves tryed to kill the poor Olympic torch-bearer.....lol
Besides, Haldir made it very clear that he doesn't want to be there. It was obvious by the grimace he made when Aragorn embrased him, like he destroyed his 1,000$ Armani suit or something...

[Eyeris]

Originally posted by Witch King of Angmar
I think it detracted from the Men of Rohan. It was their sacrifice and bravery that smashed the armies of Saruman, not 300 elves or whatever. But filmwise it looked pretty good with the flights of arrows etc.

By having King Theoden fleeing to Helm's Deep instead of taking the fight to Saruman, the movie already took away too much from the Men of Rohan.

And even though I was kinda dismayed to see the elves marching in at first, I have to say that after the second time I watched it, it wasn't so bad after all.

[Radagast]

I think is was a bit wierd that all of a sudden there was some elves... but it helped in the sence that the battle was more fair...

[Alcarohtar]

I liked to see some action from the elves, but I think PJ deviated too much for the book...the elves were not necessary there.

[Caro1984]

Personally, I'm happy that the Elves were in the battle. One of my favorite scene is when the Elves arrive at Helm's Deep. That scene is so beautiful and the music is awesome!