Sindarin Practice

[Wilwarin]

This thread is a place where those who are learning Sindarin can come and practice writing and phrasing.

General questions or comments about Sindarin should be posted in "The Sindarin Thread".

Please remember that this is not a place to receive Sindarin "lessons". There is no way I can teach you all you need to know in this thread. This is simply a place to receive instruction in your own studies. Learning Sindarin is up to you.

So post away! :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

Hmm... I guess there's no one out there who is learning Sindarin. :(

[HobbitFriend]

lol no one who has TIME! i'm gonna try this summer... but right now i've got so much to do with school and all! :read: i barely have time to post on other threads! i can't believe how big War of the Ring has gotten! but then again i'm not surprised cuz it IS a really great site!... my fav ;)

[Chalili]

I was trying, but I've been home sick lately and running fever and been busy with school and band and... Well, basically, I've been trying but am busy with the things I have to do. I'm still trying, though, and have actually penetrated my mom's thick non-linguistic skull with about two words!

[Wilwarin]

You mean there is actually someone out there besides me who is studying Sindarin?

If you need any help or have any questions I'll be happy to try and tackle them!

[Chalili]

Ok, as soon as I run into something troubling I'll let you know!

[Wilwarin]

:wiggle: :loveyou:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

dude wil are you still offering to send us a word list? i remember reading sth like that a looong time ago... didnt want to get it at the time, but now i do...

oh yeah, and, just as soon, as you get that pronunciation guide done... youll tell us right?

oh yeah, and, about the new elvish in the movie... that too would go a long way towards making me a better sindarin speaker!

lol if ive given you enough to do for me now ill just go away :grin:

[Wilwarin]

Yeah, I know you guys are waiting for them! I have just been so busy in real life that I haven't had the time to work on them. But I WILL send them to you when I do get them finished. Don't worry! I won't forget you! I have all your names on a waiting list.

[Elven Daughter]

I study it too, but in a cultural sense, lol. (I study where it came from and what it is used for, basically) but my next step is to learn the language, and I'm starting with Sindarin.

[Wilwarin]

Well good! Finally! Someone is starting with Sindarin!

[Chalili]

Hey! I started with Sindarin! I'm doing both now, but I'm focusing more on Sindarin still...

[Wilwarin]

Go Chalili!! :thumbs:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Suilad, mellyn, a mae govannen!
I, too, am studying Sindarin, and I regularily post on Tolkienonline on thier language forums, and there i am teaching some ppl. I don't really have time to teach anyone else, but if any of you have any questions about Sindarin or andthing else that has to do with Tolkien, I'd be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
Boe anim baded, cuio mae.

[Wilwarin]

Hey you and me both, Celebriel! It seems though that no one here has any questons. At least not so far. Glad to see a fellow Sindarin fan though!

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Suilad, Wilwarin!
How far are you in your SIndarin studies? Just curious.
cuio mae

[Wilwarin]

You can read about me in the Sticky: "About Elvish and this forum". If you still have any questions after that you can PM me. Why don't you PM me anyway? I would love to hear about your Sindarin studdies too!

[Elemmìrë]

Hey guys. i just now joined the site and in a BAD way wanna learn Sindarin.........i know a little but not much......Can all ya'll or some or one of ya'll help me or give me recommendations on where to go to learnhow to speak Sindarin? I'd love ya forever!

[Wilwarin]

Suilad, Elemmírë! Mae govannen! Take a look at some of the links in the Sticky called "For those who want to learn Elvish". You might find something there that can help you. Also I would be glad to answer any questions you might have here in this thread.

Again, welcome to WotR! And good luck!

[Herenyë]

I have no idea if this is the right place to ask you this but does

inyë melimë mean i love......just wondering......so confused lol

[Wilwarin]

Hmm......that would be Quenya. You'll have to ask Isiltári in "The Quenya Thread".

[Wilwarin]

Ok, to give this thread a little bit of the life it was ment to live I have decided to post a few phrases for people to to try and translate. Some will be in Sindarin and some will be in English. You can post your translations here and I will help you if you can't figure them out, or you can PM me if you want. If others have already tried translating them and you don't want to know what they mean before you try yourself, then don't read any further posts unless it says New Phrases in red at the top. OK? Here are the first phrases then:


1)
Translate into Sindarin:

"The man [general term for all races] is under the tree"


2)
Translate into English:

"I chên gara hin luin"

3)
Translate into Sindarin:

"She has long hair"

4)
Translate into English:

"Roch thalion nîn"


OK? is that too many all at once? Only four. You don't have to do them all if you don't want to. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have........so have at it guys! :thumbs:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

let me start out demanding your dictionary ;) heehee

ok well... um... the in sindarin is 'i'... 'men' plural is 'edain' sing. might be edan?? thats as far as i can get with that one

'i' is the... 'chen' might be child but im not sure on that one... i havent studied verbs at all ... 'luin' is 'blue' though...

wont even try the next yet...

uh roch is horse, ... theres a name in this Sil 'Hurin Thalion' which might mean , uh, he who desires action? The encyclopedia of arda calls it vigorous-wise, coming from 'thalion', 'thoughtfulness, desire'... and ardalambion tries to tell me 'thalion' is 'hero'... and nin means, er, my, or me, or sth like that... so 'roch thalion nin' is 'my wise/thoughtful horse' ??? except no, adj come before the modifiers.... heehee my elvish is terrible

ok well have fun wading through my post, i dont even know myself what i am saying...lol

[Wilwarin]

lol Well that's a pretty good try Tar! :thumbs:

(By the way, I have been working on my Sindarin dictionary again, finally! I still don't know when I'll have it done but I am wokring on it a little every day.)


Do you want me to give you the translations, Tar? Or would you like to try some more? I could PM them to you if you want.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

no, just tell me what was right and what was wrong about my last post :)

but dont give me the complete translations, im still working on it :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

OK! :thumbs:


"edain" is plural for the race of men, "adan" is the singular. But I ment just "man" in general, sorry, I should have specified, I fixed my above post.

"chên" is the lenited form of "child", and "luin" is blue. :)

"roch" is "horse", "nin" is "my"

"thalion" is not all those that you guessed, but you are close!

I think your Elvish is pretty good! :thumbs:

[Herenyë]

is it better to learn Sindarin then Quenya or just to learn both at the same time?......

[Wilwarin]

Do what ever you want, though Sindarin is easier, I think, plus it is the language that they speak in the movies. It's up to you, which ever you like best I guess.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

well i started out wanting to learn Quenya. I'm ending up learning Sindarin though :huh:

I think your Elvish is pretty good! :thumbs:aww thank you Wil.. ok i will root around and try to come up with some of that other stuff. heh

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ok...

The man is under the tree

'I benn na no i galadh'..... i have no idea about the verb because i found the rest of this on ardalambion but i couldnt find 'to be'... so there we are *shrugs* lol

'I chên gara hin luin'

'the child ... children blue'.......gack that makes no sense lol

ok thats all thats coming from my poor little brain tonight... i really should go to bed

[Herenyë]

thanks ill learn Sindarin......cuz its easier and they speak it in the movies......lol

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

_thalion_ is "mighty, strong" as in _Beleg Cuthalion (minus some accents)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Ardalambion though tells me it is 'hero'..... and i tend to trust Ardalambion :)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

yes, i have it as "hero", too, although I've seen it used more often as "mighty, strong". I also have _callon_ as "hero".

[Wilwarin]

Hey that's very good Tar! That is just how I would have done it if I was treating Sindarin grammar the same as English. Which most people do simply because they don't know any better! :p

This is how that phrase should look:

"The man is under the tree"

"I venn na nuin 'aladh"

The word for man "benn" is lenited to "venn" after an article like "the".
The same goes for "galadh". the "g" is droped when following an article.
When the words "no" and "i" follow eachother like that they come together and form one word: nuin = "under the".

As for the word "Thalion", I have always used it to mean "Strong". I have only ever seen it used as "hero" on the Ardalambion site. Celebriel is right, I would trust the Sill. Cúthalion is "strong bow". Not "hero bow". :grin:


Keep it up Tar! You're doing real good! :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

lol thank you Wil :thumbs: :)

[Wilwarin]

Anyone else want to have a go at translating?

[Little Devil]

I would but I really don't know any Sindarin. I'm learning though! ;)

[Wilwarin]

Well good! Read this (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm) and it will get you going on a pretty good start :thumbs: I know it's long, but you won't learn Sindairn otherwise!

[Tar-Ancalimë]

been there, done that, didnt remember much...time to reread it you think? lol

[Wilwarin]

Yes reread it! It's one of the most complete studies on Sindarin that I have found and you can learn a lot from it! Read it, and then try to translate the rest of those phrases. Come on, it's fun!

[Little Devil]

Thanks Wil.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

yeah that document by H.K.F. on Sindarin is really good....he covers a lot of it in detail. that's where i started :)

[Wilwarin]

Oh good, Celebriel, you read/are reading it! Why don't you try to translate one of the phrases I posted on page two?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

which phrases?

[Wilwarin]

Go to page 2. It's the 7th post down. There's 4 phrases and they're numbered.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

ummmm......page two? this thread? there is only two pages.....ahhhhh i'm so confuzzled...

[Wilwarin]

You must not have it set on view default. OK, never mind about which page it's on. Look for the post by me in this thread that has red words in it that say "new phrases", or something to that effect. Below that are four numbered phrases, some in Sindarin and some in English.

If you can't find it now then they must not be there anymore! lol

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Originally posted by Wilwarin
1)
Translate into Sindarin:

"The man [general term for all races] is under the tree"


2)
Translate into English:

"I chên gara hin luin"

3)
Translate into Sindarin:

"She has long hair"

4)
Translate into English:

"Roch thalion nîn"
;)

[Wilwarin]

Yeah........I never thought of doing that! Thanks Tar!

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hmmm...let's see, i only have a minute, sooo....

i benn/adar uin i 'aladh

my strong horse


i gtg now, i'll do the next two some other time, mom's gettin all mad about me being online right now....arghhh!

[Wilwarin]

Hey good job, Celebriel! :thumbs:

You got one of them completely right: "My strong horse"

You got the sentence structure right on the other one, but you forgot lenition of one of the consonants after the article. You did good with leniting "g" to zero in "galadh" though. I'll let you figure out where the other one should be. Also, for "under the" I would use "nuin" instead of "uin i".

But you are doing really good! :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

hey you already said earlier in this thread that 'benn' should be 'venn'... nothing to figure out there lol

[Wilwarin]

Yeah, well, I'm assuming that she, not wanting to spoil the translations, hasn't read those other posts.

Are you still trying to translate them, Tar? Or would you like some new ones?

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ah... either that or she didnt have time :p

nay.... i have a question, though, you told me once that adjs come before the nouns? then why... 'horse strong my'??

[Wilwarin]

Did I? I must have been confused by the way you phrased your question, either that or I was really tired right then, because adjectives usually come after the noun, though that isn't a definate rule. So you could say "horse strong" or "strong horse", it really doesn't matter. Though adjictives are only lenited if the follow the noun.

P.S. "nay" meaning you don't want any new phrases? or "nay" meaning you're not translating the others?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hey everybody.
sorry i haven't been here for a while...my grandpa died last wednesday of a heartattack, and i had to travel for 2 days to go to his funeral. :( i just got back today.
ouch...again, i have like no time, i'm not even supposed to be on right now, but i figured i better tell you guys where i was....
oh, well, i better go now....
hey, wil, i'd be happy to try some more translations, and later i'll look back on those other ones, but like i said, i gtg.
buh-bye
-Dimwen

[Wilwarin]

I'm so sorry to hear about your grandpa, Celebriel!

I was wondering where you went.

I will post a couple more phrases in a little while.

[Mirkwoodelf]

Hello!

I have been searching these boards for about a week now and I finally decided to register. Great site! Anyways, I really want to learn Sindarin but I can't find a dictionary with enough words in it. I am still a little uncertain about grammar but I have been learning as I go.

I got roch thalion nin. My hero horse. Is that right or am I off?

[Wilwarin]

Well I have translated it "My strong horse". "thalion" I have discovered can mean either "strong" or "hero", it's used interchangedly (is that a word?)



Ok, here are the New Phrases:


Translate into Sindarin:

"Darkness was over the land"


Translate into Sindarin:

"The women made bread"


That's all I can think up for now, but I'm sure it wil give you guys somethng new to do for a while! :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

Or did I mean to say interchangably? :duh:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Morn ornant i dhur

i vess _____ bast/i mast (i can't remember "to make", and i'm too lazy to look in my dic right now! lol)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

i would use _callon_ rather than _thalion_ for "hero", because i like to use _thalion_ as "strong, mighty"

[Stone Drake]

Mae Govannen
I just registered on this forum, and I have decided that I will learn Sindarin only (maybe Quenya later) because it's the grey elven speech and I prefer dark elves, wherever. (Sindar, Dai-talahn, Dunmer,...)
I have started to read that article and I'm happy to finally have found something detailed about Sindarin. There are countless sites about these languages, but none of them are very accurate or detailed.
All grammar I know is what I just read from that article and vocabulairy...
roch = horse
nîn = my, as it is placed behind the subject: of mine
loth = flower
friend = mellon (friends: mellyn)
thalion = strong, mighty
callon = hero
luin = blue
And that's about it, everything I read (and remembered) until now in the article and this post. :p
If I wish to learn a bit Sindarin, I've got a lot to do! Too bad I don't have much time for it, but I'll try.
Did anyone ever think about a full tutorial that starts with the basics and builds further on that? (like other languages are thought)
I also want to learn to write Sindarin with Tengwar. I don't know all symbols, but I wrote them down and I'm continually thinking of new things to write in Tengwar (they have to be Sindarin, that's the hard part about it). As I simply take these symbols to school and practise them during (another) boring lesson, I've got quite a lot of time to write. :naughty:
I just don't really know when to use what symbols (like the difference between rómen and órë or silme and silme nuquerna and many others...)

[Stone Drake]

I started to read the grammar and such, but now I've scrolled down, I see that reading such an article is not really the way to learn a language. As some have said, they don't remember a thing about it. To memorize the grammar of a language, you need a clear view on it, not a long text. Maybe I should find some time and rework the grammar mentioned in the article... This way I wóuld be learning much more...

[Lemnas]

>>If I wish to learn a bit Sindarin, I've got a lot to do! Too bad I don't have much time for it, but I'll try.
Did anyone ever think about a full tutorial that starts with the basics and builds further on that? (like other languages are thought)
I also want to learn to write Sindarin with Tengwar>>

Try my website at www.councilofelrond.com

we have a full course that covers everything you need to know :)

[Wilwarin]

Hi StoneDrake! Welcome to the site! I'm glad you are having fun learning Sindarin, I would love to hear more about it, and talk more about it with you, but I would ask that you please keep all general Sindarin discussions to "The Sindarin Thread" and keep this thread open for practice phrasing, thanks!

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hey, wil! how do you like my signature (-I roch a i ngaraf nin mellyn aen. -Avon awartha le. (sindarin) ?
-Dimwen

[Wilwarin]

Does it roughly translate "The horse and the wolf they are my friends. I will not abandon you."? If it is then there are few mistakes. If not, then maybe you could tell me what you meant to say?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

"The horse and the wolf are my friends" "I won't abandon you"

[Wilwarin]

The correct way to say "I won't abandon" is "ú-awarthathon"

Also, "nin" is "me", I think you want "nîn" with a long "î" for "my"

Also it is not necessary to put "i" after "a". "i roch a garaf" would be just fine. In that case you would also want to unmutate "ngaraf" back to "garaf" as it no longer follows an article.

Good job though, I like it!

[Elemmìrë]

Hey Wil,
In the "phrases" thread, i wrote a phrase i often tell people but said it was loosly translated......i so guessed based on dialogue that "euri govannen nauthannen i ned ôl reniannen" meant "when we first met i thought i hadstrayed into a dream"....so A) does that make any sense? and B) was i correct on my guessed translation?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

wil - i would have put the accent on _nin_, but i don't know how....

[Wilwarin]

Go to this (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthreadid.php?s=&threadid=1116) thread, Celebriel. A while back we were talking about how to make the accent marks with the keyboard, but the thread has since been lost to time. You shuold be able to figure it out, whether you have a Mac or a PC. :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

As for your question, Elemmîrë.........yes, it makes sense, and you roughly translated it correctly. Here is the exact, literal translation: "first we met I thought that in dream I strayed". But you would never say it like that in English! "When we first met I thought that I had strayed into a dream" would be good enough.

[Lady of Mirkwood]

Hey!Hello!
Im new here and i dont know very much about Sindarin or Quenya i was just asking if the phrase "Amin mela lle":grin:
or "Ro sane amin corm" are correct???? :huh:

[Wilwarin]

Hmm.....I'm pretty sure those are Quenya. Go to the Quenya thread, I'm sure Isiltári can help you out.

Welcome to the site by the way!

[Lady of Mirkwood]

Well Thank You
bbye.

[Wilwarin]

Originally posted by Wilwarin

Ok, here are the New Phrases:


Translate into Sindarin:

"Darkness was over the land"


Translate into Sindarin:

"The women made bread"




I thought I would post these onse again since no one has translated them yet, and they were already a couple pages back.

Are these ones too hard? Should I do easier ones?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Hey, wil.....i answered them. Oh well, i guess you missed 'em. Here it is again...

Morn ornant i dhor.

I vess ___ i mast. (i can't think of "to make" right now, and i'm too lazy to look in my dic! hehe lol)

[Wilwarin]

I'm sorry! I didn't see that!

Well, the first one is right, but my dictionary says that "morn" is just "dark", for "darkness" you would want "fuin". As in "Taur-nu-fuin", "Forest under Darkness"

The second one should be plural "women", thus I think the bread would also be plural, since each woman would be making her own bread.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

oops. i thought your thing said "the womAn made bread". my mistake
hmmm....yes, _fuin_ makes sense, but i've also seen _morn_ used as "darkness"

[Wilwarin]

So do you want to try and make the phrase plural? Or would you like me to post it how it should be?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

"the women" would be _in vess_

[Wilwarin]

Actually, this phrase requires Nasal Mutation rather than Soft Mutaion. So the whole phrase would look like this:

"i miss 'arant bais'

"biss" is the plural for "bess". It becomes "i miss" after Nasal Mutaion.

"Bais" is the plural for "bas" which is "bread"

[Lessien Elensar]

does 'ava vanta i salquesse' mean 'keep off the grass' like i read?! or something totally different, coz i was looking up this dictionary and the word meanings were totally different.........:(

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hmmm....that looks like Quenya, not Sindarin

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

oh wil....this is a little off-topic, but is _Wilwarin_Elerrina_ at Tolkienonline you? just wondering

[Wilwarin]

I'm not sure, Lessien, like Celebriel said, that phrase is Quenya.

And no, that isn't me, Celebriel. I don't even visit Tolkienonline.

[Lessien Elensar]

okay kool, thanks, i'll go ask over there :)

[Herenyë]

Melich Legolas?

Mae Govannen!

Suilad!

I forgot what the second one mean heehee............

So the first one is Do you love Legolas? right? heehee

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

_mae govannen_ is "Well met"

[Herenyë]

thanks!

is thanks hanned? heehee.....got that from somewhere and i forgot heehee :grin:

[Lemnas]

thanks!

is thanks hanned?

Hannad means "thanking" hennaid means "thankings" it can be used as a means of expressing thanks, although seem to be an English idiom to me.

[Herenyë]

OH!

so how do you say......thank you? so confusing! lol heehee thanks!

[Elemmìrë]

Thank You is "hanned le" i believe

[Elleth]

mae govannen
i learned a lot of sindarin at
http://www.jrrvf.com/%7Ehisweloke/sindar/
:rolleyes:

[Herenyë]

thanks! heehee.....i see i see

hanned le (well if it is Thank you lol)

[Lemnas]

>>Thank You is "hanned le" i believe<<

Yes that could work. Although I am not sure I agree with Mr. Salo's use of Le here. First - it is only used in our attested texts to address the Valar or higher, and second, we only see it come before the verb..... (not to mention only being used as a dative pronoun..)

[Elleth]

In the movie script Thank you is Hannon le. In TTT Aragorn says "thank you" to Legolas after Legolas says "you are late". :rolleyes:

[Wilwarin]

Yes that's right he does, except he says "hannad le". What would you use, Lemnas? I've always used "le", is there a different word?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Elleth - where did you find the movie script for TTT?

[Lemnas]

>>Yes that's right he does, except he says "hannad le". <<

Really? I thought he said _hannon_ literally "I thank". I could be very very wrong though. It certainly would not be the first time!

>>What would you use, Lemnas? I've always used "le", is there a different word?<<

Unfortunately there is not an attested word that is not reverential in nature. (or Nominative, accusative etc). I have tried my own attempt at reconstructing a possible pronominal system that can be found here:

http://shivan.multiservers.com/pronominalsystem.html

Some other scholars like Derdzinski use _ech_ derived from primitive _ekke_ which I think would be an acceptable use as well. These are, however, just my oppinions :)

[Wilwarin]

Hey thanks!

[Elleth]

Celebriel_Esgaledhel, I found the movie script at
http://www.elvsh.org/gwaith/movie_elvish.htm
This website only has the movie quotes in sindarin.

[Elceleb]

Celebriel, mae govannen! :) I didn't know that you posted here, too.

I'm just starting a few Sindarin lessons. My main language focus is learning German. It feels like I'll never be fluent even though I'm in a fourth year university course :rolleyes:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Mae govannen, Elceleb! Yeah, I've been here for a while.

[Elceleb]

So I see. Speaking of Sindarin, though, I'd probably ought to go do that second lesson :rolleyes: Helka's wanting me to put together a word list, too. My fingers hurt at the thought of the coding ;)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

:) lol Elceleb. I know what you mean. i was trying some html coding last night, but i got way too frustrated with how long it took. Oh well, I better get backk to my movie - I'm watching Black Hawk Down right now.....my fav movie ever!! (almost tying with LotR!) I LOOOOVE it. I've also just about memorized the whole movie.
Boe anim baded, Elceleb, a mellyn ni^n. Navaer, a cuio mae!

[Elceleb]

Yes, I'm terrible with this. I got my name and "my friend" out of all of that :rolleyes: Enjoy your movie, though :)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

lol El - i siad "I must go, Elceleb, and my friends. Farewell, and live well."

[Elceleb]

Thanks Celebriel :)

[Lemnas]

Wilwarin-

I just updated my pronominal reconstruction if you would like to take a look at it :)

http://shivan.multiservers.com/pronominal.htm

[Wilwarin]

Hey thanks Lemnas! Looks interesting.

And guys? can you please keep the chatter out of this thread? This thread if for Sindarin phrasing practice. If you want to chat go to Cardh-e-Bathath, thanks!

[Elceleb]

Sorry, Wilwarin. :blush:

(If I knew how to say that in Sindarin I would, but all I know are some random words, so I'm shutting up and leaving now.)

[Elemmìrë]

Ok wil, i asked you about the year numbers in another forum but i did some ressearch of my own and i just wanted to see what you (or somebody who can give me feedback) thought....
April 16th, 1988=Lothron Caer-eneg, Caer-neder herain neder-toloth toloth...
What do ya think?

[Wilwarin]

Hmm......I guess you could do it that way, I'm not sure. If so, wouldn't it be "Lothron Caer-eneg, caer-neder toloth-toloth"? I don't get the "herain neder-toloth" part.

[Elemmìrë]

I did the herain-neder part to show that the 9 was in the 10's place, like nintey..... but this was just all guessing

[Wilwarin]

Yeah, I'm just guessing too. I really don't know. I don't think I've ever thought about how I would count above 12 in Sindarin because I have never needed to do it before! Maybe some one else here has a better idea. Or you can just go with what you have.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hmmm... at home I have a thingy with all the numbers in Sindarin til like 1000, i could check it out when i get home, if you'd like:)

[Elemmìrë]

Oh Celebriel that would be awesome!! please do!!

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

ok. I'll look for it when I get home today. don't know if I'll be able to post it for a couplde o' days, though. My internet is way overtime on my own comp:)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

okay, here it is. i tried posting it earlier, but when i went to post it, the comp timed out on me:(
1 - mi^n
2 - ta^d
3 - ne^l
4 - canad
5 - leben
6 - eneg
7 - odog
8 - tolodh
9 - neder
10 - pae
11 - minig
12 - uiug
13 - pae-a-ne^l
14 - pae-a canad
15 - pae-a-leben
16 - pae-ar-eneg (and so forth til 20)
20 - talphae
30 - nelphae
40 - canaphae
50 - lephae
60 - enephae
70 - odophae
80 - tolophae
90 - nederphae
100 - haran
200 - tacharan
300 - nelcharan
400 - canacharan
500 - lefaran
600 - enecharan
700 - odocharan
800 - tolocharan
900 - nedercharan
1000 - meneg

1st - minui
2nd - tadui
3rd - nelui
4th - canthui
5th - levnui
6th - encui
7th - odothui
8th - tollui
9th - nedrui
10th - paenui

That's all I have, soo.....enjoy :)

[Elemmìrë]

Oh Celebriel youre so awesome!!!

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

no prob! :) I hope it's not a copy someone already has, 'cause that's the only one i have! ;) i got it from Ryzard Derdinski's "Summary of the Sindarin Grammar". (lol i think that's how you spell his name! sorry if it's wrong.)

[Wilwarin]

That's really intersting, Celebriel. I've always read that Sindarin numbers aren't attested above 12. (besides a few higher numbers here and there) Do you know if these are attested or not?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Well, I've never actually seen them attested to in any of Tolkien's works, but I guess that's what R.D. came up with, and I tend to trust his judgment in such things. Him, H.K.F., and David Salo are great Sindarin experts.

[Wilwarin]

Well yeah, I guess they make sense. "pae-a-nêl" would literally mean "ten and three" for 13. And "nelphae" would literally mean "three ten" for 30.

Sounds good to me. I'm not of the type who are sticklers for only attested words. If a reconstructed word makes sense then why not use it? It a whole lot less frustrating than going without!

[Melian]

I have a question on pronunciation. The vowel "y" is said to be pronounced as in the French word "lune". Since I don't speak French, I don't have a clue. Do you know an English word that would have the same pronunciaton? Any help would be appreciated.:)

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Well, it's sort of like the sound of the English word "you". Not really, but I can't think of anything else.;)

[Wilwarin]

Yeah, that would be about the closest example, I think. Kind of hard huh?

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

here's a poem i wrote. would ya check it out for me, Wil? it was kinda a last minute thing, so there will probably be a lot of mistakes. right now i don't have the energy to fix it;)

Ú-marth (doom)
teithant Celebriel Esgaledhel

Ae in ‘wain fîr, dan iaur dortha, man estel ar in edain?
Man tolatha o amar hen?
Ae i fuin gruithannen in edain vi amar hen, norathar(?) o san?
Man tolatha o amar hen?
Ae in Edhil revia ath i ‘aear, i amar o edain dantatha(?) ned dae. Ar pen in Edhil ne/vi Annor, edain ú-dortha ned galad.
Man tolatha o amar hen?
Sa broniatha aen.

If the young fade, but the old linger, what hope is there for Men?
What will come of this world?
If the darkness terrifies the Men in this world, will they run from from it?
What will come of this world?
If the Elves sail across the sea, the world of Men will fall into shadow. For without the Elves in Middle-earth, Men will not stay in the light.
What will come of this world?
May it endure.

Lit. – If the new fade, but (the) old stay, what hope (is there) for the Men?
What will-come of world this?
If the darkness terrifies the Men in world this, with-they-run from it?
What will-come of world this?
If the Elves fly/sail across the sea, the world of Men will-fall in the shadow. For without the Elves in Middle-earth, Men will-not-stay in the light.
What will-come of world this?
May it endure.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

* that was one of my not-so-good ones. my favorite is somewhere on this comp, but i can't find it!!!!!!!n ARGGGGG!!!!! my sis better not have deleted it!

[Wilwarin]

Very interesting Celebriel! I don't have time to look at it closely right now. But I will soon, then I'll let you know. At first glance though it looks good! :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

OK. I have read the whole thing and have found a few mistakes, but first I must compliment you on a job well done! :thumbs: you have a very good grasp of Sindarin. How long have you been sudying it?

So here is what I found in the mistake department (Your lines will be in ( ) and mistakes will be in red):

Ú-marth. Did you want this to mean "without doom"? Because that is what it would say—well "ú-amarth" would be more correct. You have (doom) after it so I assume you just wanted it to mean "doom". If so then simply "amarth" would do.

(Ae in 'wain fîr . . .) "gwain" is one of those few Sindarin words with the "ai" diphthong that turns to "î" in the plural. So plural it would be "gwîn". Also the plural artical "in" is mutated in this context, so the correct phrase would be "Ae i 'wîn fîr . . .". Some other words to use in place of "gwîn" are "echil" an Elvish word for men, or "abonnen" which literally means "after-born". Just a thought, you don't have to use them.

(. . . man estel ar in edain.) "Ar in Edain" would not be the correct was to say "for the men". The correct way would be "'nin Edain". Make sure you put the (') before nin.

(Man tolatha o amar hen) "hen" is "ear" or "she", or "hên" could also be "child". "san" is "this".

(Ae i fuin gruithannen . . .) I'm not sure you want to use this tense here. This literally means "is terrified". So I think you would just want to use the present tense, "gruitha" = terrifies.

( . . . in edain vi amar hen, norathar(?) o san). I asume you want to say "they will run"? If so then it would be "nerithar". Or you could say "dregathar"= 'they will flee'. However, in your translation you say "will they run from it?". If this is what you mean then I would phrase it "nerir o han?" = 'they run from it?' Also, "han" is the correct form of "it", not "san".

(Ae in Edhil revia ath i 'aear . . .) "ath" is a preffix that means "across", so this would correctly be "ath'aear" = "across [the] sea".

(. . . i amar o edain dantatha(?) ned dae.). The correct form of "will-fall" would be "dannatha". "ned dae" triggers Stop Mutation, so it would end up looking like this: "ne dae".

(Ar pen in Edhil ne/vi Annor, edain ú-dortha ned galad). Firstly, I would use "vi" instead of "ne", simply because it's easier to say "vi Annor" rather than "ne Annor" :) "ú-dortha" should be "ú-dhortha" because of Soft Mutation after 'ú-'. The prep. "ned" = "in the" causes Mixed Mutation, so it sould look like this: "e-galad" = "in the light".

(Sa broniatha aen.) Im not sure what you are trying to do here.This literally means "May it will endure". Is that what you wanted to say? Also "sa" is not the correct form of "it". Use "ha" instead.

Well, I think that's about all. I hope I didn't butcher your poem! If you don't agree with anything I've said here please let me know. I want all my info to be correct too! But again, A very good job, I am very proud of you! I like to see other people enjoying Sindarin as much as I do. Keep up the good work. :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

>>Ú-marth. Did you want this to mean "without doom"? Because that is what it would say—well "ú-amarth" would be more correct. You have (doom) after it so I assume you just wanted it to mean "doom". If so then simply "amarth" would do.

:) yeah, that was just a wild guess. :)

>>(Ae in 'wain fîr . . .) "gwain" is one of those few Sindarin words with the "ai" diphthong that turns to "î" in the plural. So plural it would be "gwîn". Also the plural artical "in" is mutated in this context, so the correct phrase would be "Ae i 'wîn fîr . . .". Some other words to use in place of "gwîn" are "echil" an Elvish word for men, or "abonnen" which literally means "after-born". Just a thought, you don't have to use them.

hmmmm...i completely forgot about the _gwain_ thing!!! thanx!!. I've seen _abonnen_ used a lot, but i've never seen _echil_. interesting.

>>(. . . man estel ar in edain.) "Ar in Edain" would not be the correct was to say "for the men". The correct way would be "'nin Edain". Make sure you put the (') before nin.

oops :)

>>(Man tolatha o amar hen) "hen" is "ear" or "she", or "hên" could also be "child". "san" is "this".

????check out the Moria Gate Inscription - "Im Narvi _hain_ echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw _hin_". I've seen _hen_ as "this", but maybe I should have used _hin_ or something?? ahhhh now you've all confuzzled me :S

>>(Ae i fuin gruithannen . . .) I'm not sure you want to use this tense here. This literally means "is terrified". So I think you would just want to use the present tense, "gruitha" = terrifies.

yeah. oops - hasty typo.

>>( . . . in edain vi amar hen, norathar(?) o san). I asume you want to say "they will run"? If so then it would be "nerithar". Or you could say "dregathar"= 'they will flee'. However, in your translation you say "will they run from it?". If this is what you mean then I would phrase it "nerir o han?" = 'they run from it?' Also, "han" is the correct form of "it", not "san".


well, i was kinda thinking of something like "they _will_ run", and so i used this form. notice the (?)! ;) and the "san" thingy - another hasty typo.


>>(Ae in Edhil revia ath i 'aear . . .) "ath" is a preffix that means "across", so this would correctly be "ath'aear" = "across [the] sea".

Yes, i've seen it as a prefix, but I've also seen it on it's own. oh well - your way looks better;)

>>(. . . i amar o edain dantatha(?) ned dae.). The correct form of "will-fall" would be "dannatha". "ned dae" triggers Stop Mutation, so it would end up looking like this: "ne dae".

yeah, i don't know what i was thinking there.

>>(Ar pen in Edhil ne/vi Annor, edain ú-dortha ned galad). Firstly, I would use "vi" instead of "ne", simply because it's easier to say "vi Annor" rather than "ne Annor" "ú-dortha" should be "ú-dhortha" because of Soft Mutation after 'ú-'. The prep. "ned" = "in the" causes Mixed Mutation, so it sould look like this: "e-galad" = "in the light".

yep, i'm reallly bad at forgeting about stop mutation. i miss it sometimes, when i'm really bored at a poem. i really didn't like this one - the one i liked, i'm still frantically searching for. "e-galad" i'm even worse for m.m.! i'll change it to this form. just a thought - it also looks like "of the ...." this way :S

>>(Sa broniatha aen.) Im not sure what you are trying to do here.This literally means "May it will endure". Is that what you wanted to say? Also "sa" is not the correct form of "it". Use "ha" instead.

yep, that's what i was going for. but i've seen "it" as _sa_ in context similar to this.....why _ha_?

i'll try to post my other poem soon.....

[Wilwarin]

Well, I'll try to answer your questions, here goes......


>>>(Man tolatha o amar hen) "hen" is "ear" or "she", or "hên" could also be "child". "san" is "this".

>>????check out the Moria Gate Inscription - "Im Narvi _hain_ echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw _hin_". I've seen _hen_ as "this", but maybe I should have used _hin_ or something?? ahhhh now you've all confuzzled me :S

In the Moria Gate Inscription they have "hain" and "hin". "Hain" is "them", "hin" is "these". I have never seen "hen" as "this" in use (of course, that doesn't mean it isn't right. I do't know everything!). Where exactly did you see this, do you remeber? A theory is that "hen" is the singular of "hin", "sen" and also "san" being the un-mutated form. The ponouns in the Moria Gate Inscription are used as adjectives, therefore they are lenited. I see now that the case is also true in your poem, so......It may be safe to use "hen". I guess it's really up to you. Sindarin pronouns are more debated than any other part of the language I think.


>>>(Sa broniatha aen.) Im not sure what you are trying to do here.This literally means "May it will endure". Is that what you wanted to say? Also "sa" is not the correct form of "it". Use "ha" instead.

>>yep, that's what i was going for. but i've seen "it" as _sa_ in context similar to this.....why _ha_?

Really? I have never seen that. I have only ever seen "ha" used. I even look in a few Sindarin dictionaries to check. All of them say "ha" or "han". Oh well, go figure!


As for the Stop Mutation and all that, don't worry, I have the same problem. I may translate something one day, then go back and read it weeks later and discover that I forgot some mutations! I do it all the time. But you're doing a really good job nonetheless! :thumbs:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

here's another one i wrote a while ago....havent' proof read it yet, but you wanna check it out? right now i'd like to comment on your last post wil, but i don't have time. maybe later;)

Ir Calan Fîr (When Sunlight Wanes)
By Celebriel Esgaledhel

Ir calan fîr, a pan morn,
Ir Ithil eriatha, a elenath,
Ne/vi aglar tîn, silathar;
---Ned aglar o Elbereth beleg.

When sunlight wanes, and all grows dark,.
The moon will rise, with all the stars.
And in their glory they will shine;
In the glory of great Elbereth

Lit. : When sunlight fades, and all (is) dark,
The moon will-rise, and (the) star-host,
In glory theirs, they-will-shine;
In the glory of Elbereth (the) great/mighty.

An naid hin tirathon ne/vi morn
A hirathon nestad ne/vi harna nîn
O pan ulug o amar hen.
Esteliach aen vi naid hin.

And to these things I will look at night
And find some healing in my pain
From all the evil of this world.
May you also trust in these things.

Lit. : To things these I-will-look in darkness
And I will find some healing in wounds mine
Of all the evil of world this.
May it be you-trust in things these.

[Wilwarin]

That's OK, I understand. I'll take a look at your new poem and post my thoughts maybe........tomorrow or the next day. It looks good. Reading the translation I like this one better too. See you later.

[Wilwarin]

Alright, here are my thoughts on your other poem:

"Ir Calan fîr, a pan morn." — OK, first off, using "calan" here is OK, I was just wondering if you would rather use "glawar" intead, since it means "sunlight" like in your translation. "Calan" literally means "daylight". It's just up to you, either one is fine. Also "pân" has a long 'â', so there should be a circumflex over it. I don't if you just forget it or what.

"Ne/vi aglar tîn, silathar." — It's up to you, but either "ne" or "vi can be used here. I personally would use "vi", since I think it sounds nicer and is easier to say in this instance. "Tîn" is the unlenited form of "dîn" which is "his", not "theirs". I have yet to find the Sindarin pronoun "theirs". (Sindarin pronouns are very scanty.)

"Ned aglar o Elbereth beleg." — You probably see what's wrong here! Lenition! :)

"An naid hin tirathon ne/vi morn." — "an" should be "na" if you want it to mean "towards these things I look". I'm not sure if that's what you wanted to say. "An" literally means "to, for", as in "I give this TO you". "Na" would be "I look TOWARDS the stars". I just thought I would point out these differences, just incase you didn't realize them.
"tirathon" is not the correct conjugation of that verb. Since it is an I-Stem verb the correct form would be "tirithon".
"ne/vi" I would personally use "ne" in this instance, but it is still up to you. :)

"A hirathon nestad ne/vi harna nîn." — "hirathon" is the wrong conjugation, since it is an I-Stem verb it should be "hirithon". "ne/vi" I would use "vi" here. Still up to you. ;) . "harna" is the verb "wound", in this instance I think you want the noun "haru", of course, it would be plural, so "hery".

"O pan ulug o amar hen." — Long 'â' in "pân". ;) I am guessing from your translation that you have "ulug" to mean "evil"? I have never seen the word "ulug", neither have any of my sources. The word I know to mean "evil" is "um".

OK, that's all. You did pretty good on this one. Much better than the last one. Let me know if you still have any other questions.

You know, I was wondering how come you don't contribute to the Sindarin Story? It would be cool if you did. So far I am the only one who has posted in that thread. :(

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

>"Ir Calan fîr, a pan morn." — OK, first off, using "calan" here is OK, I was just wondering if you would rather use "glawar" intead, since it means "sunlight" like in your translation. "Calan" literally means "daylight". It's just up to you, either one is fine. Also "pân" has a long 'â', so there should be a circumflex over it. I don't if you just forget it or what.

my prob is just that i don't know how to type that into the comp.;)

>"Ne/vi aglar tîn, silathar." — It's up to you, but either "ne" or "vi can be used here. I personally would use "vi", since I think it sounds nicer and is easier to say in this instance. "Tîn" is the unlenited form of "dîn" which is "his", not "theirs". I have yet to find the Sindarin pronoun "theirs". (Sindarin pronouns are very scanty.)

yes, i agree with you there (about pronouns), but that was the closest thing i could find. I also prefer _vi_:)

>"Ned aglar o Elbereth beleg." — You probably see what's wrong here! Lenition!

lol! sorry! _veleg_ ;)

>"An naid hin tirathon ne/vi morn." — "an" should be "na" if you want it to mean "towards these things I look". I'm not sure if that's what you wanted to say. "An" literally means "to, for", as in "I give this TO you". "Na" would be "I look TOWARDS the stars". I just thought I would point out these differences, just incase you didn't realize them.

sure, i'll change this to _na_.

>"tirathon" is not the correct conjugation of that verb. Since it is an I-Stem verb the correct form would be "tirithon".

Arghh! i hate i-stem words. they always mess me up like that. i'll be more careful next time!:)

>"ne/vi" I would personally use "ne" in this instance, but it is still up to you.

>"A hirathon nestad ne/vi harna nîn." — "hirathon" is the wrong conjugation, since it is an I-Stem verb it should be "hirithon". "ne/vi" I would use "vi" here. Still up to you. . "harna" is the verb "wound", in this instance I think you want the noun "haru", of course, it would be plural, so "hery".

_hery_ it is, then! thanx for the suggestion.

>"O pan ulug o amar hen." — Long 'â' in "pân". I am guessing from your translation that you have "ulug" to mean "evil"? I have never seen the word "ulug", neither have any of my sources. The word I know to mean "evil" is "um".

again, i don't know how to type in the accents. YOu've never seen _ulug_ before? i've seen it used many times. when i get home, maybe, i'll send you the source i got it from, if i can scrounge it up.

>OK, that's all. You did pretty good on this one. Much better than the last one. Let me know if you still have any other questions.

>You know, I was wondering how come you don't contribute to the Sindarin Story? It would be cool if you did. So far I am the only one who has posted in that thread.

Yes, i was going to, and had started to write up a post, but real life took up all my time suddenly. i've been extremely busy lately, and will be for another couple months. I'm going to Cali at the beginning of July, and after that Saskatchewan, and then I'm going to help the councilors at a camp, and THEN i might have some free time. Right now i'm at school, so that's why i've had time to type this message:)

Gallope con el viento, vaya con dios,
~Celebriel

[Wilwarin]

Oh that's OK! Lol. I look forward to when you are not too busy then. I sure know how it is though. I'm so busy, this forum is the only part of the site I have seen in four months! I just don't have the time to look at anything else! Anyway. I'm getting off-subject now! Do send me that link though, I'd like to see that.

PS. What does "gallope" mean? I got the rest of it, but that word escapes me! :blush:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

_gallope_ "run", i believe. but that's just what my friend told me this phrase meant, i wouldn't know (although i am starting Latin:)) "Run with the wind, go with God" or something like that.

I'll try to find the link. I know it's SOMEWHERE on this comp;)

[Wilwarin]

OK, thanks. I figured it must be "run". I don't know Spanish either. I had to ask my brother what it ment! :) It's a nice phrase though. Hey, I should translate that into Sindarin and put it in the Book of Elvish Phrases! I think I will. :thumbs:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

lol.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

oh i just remembered. i got _ulug_ from, I think it was R.D.'s _A'darem_, and i got _hen_ from one of David Salo's write-ups. Can't remember which one, though.

[Wilwarin]

OK, thanks :thumbs:

[Rafael]

I can do the words, but I find the grammar very difficult, can someone please tell me an easy way of learning the grammar?
oh, and one more thing, what does "henniad evyr" mean? someone told me it meant "thank you" but I read here that "thank you" means "hannon le"

thanks

[Wilwarin]

Hey guys. This thread has been ignored for a long time. I thought I would post some stuff in here today insead of in the Flash Cards thread. Of course, you can write these on the flash cards as well if you like.

These are just so you can test yourselves on Sindarin grammar. Don't worry if some are too hard for you. I tried posting them in different levels. You can post your translations here, but make sure you give fair warning in your post for the people who haven't translated them yet. To those of you who don't want to know the answers to the following translations, read any post after this with caution.

Ok, translate the following into English:

1) "i roch nâg i aran"

2) "Adar nîn nara sinnarn"

3) "in Edhil linna ben daur"


Translate the following into Sindarin"

4) "Dragons dwell in the mountains"

5) "The knight killed his enemy"

6) "The strength of the hero will endure"

If you need any help do ask.

[Wilwarin]

Just bumping the thread. :)

[Uilos]

Warning! Here follows the answers :grin: Ok, I decided to check my knowledge in Sindarin :)

1) "i roch nâg i aran" The horse bites the king (lol, I hope it's right)

2) "Adar nîn nara sinnarn" My father tells a tale

3) "in Edhil linna ben daur" The Elves sing in the forest

4) "Dragons dwell in the mountains" Emlyg dortha ben eryd

5) "The knight killed his enemy" I vaethor danc goth in

6) "The strength of the hero will endure" I vellas - en - gallon broniatha

I changed the words in the fifth sentence knight - warrior and kill - slay, because I couldn't find them in my Dragon Flame dictionary.

I'm sure there are many mistakes, but.... I tried my best :)

[Wilwarin]

You did a very good job Uilos! You only forgot a couple things.

in #5 "knight" is "rochben", "kill" and "slay" are the same thing, so that's alright. Also "danc" should be mutated to "dhanc" because it is a verb that follows its subject.

#6 should look like this: "i dur e-gallon broniatha." I use the word "tur" for "strength". "en" is sortened to "e" before a "g".

Otherwise you got everything right! Good job! How long have you been learning Sindarin?

[Uilos]

*sigh* As always, I make stupid mistakes :rolleyes: But that's what's hard in Sindarin - to remember all those little things - lenition, mutations etc. Needs more practice :)

Thanks for the correction, Wilwarin :) Well, I began to learn Sindarin about a year ago at The Council of Elrond (http://www.councilofelrond.com) - a great site where to learn elvish. Then after a while I stopped and now I'm just revising it again :)

[Wilwarin]

You did very well for only studying for a year. Yes, the mutations are hard to remember sometimes. Even I still forget once in a while. They're not stupid mistakes, they are ones anyone could make, but you made very little of them. Good work and keep it up! :thumbs:

[Wilwarin]

Just bumping this thread. I don't want it lost! I'm re-posting thelast set of phrases for anyone else who would like to give it a go at translating them.

********

These are just so you can test yourselves on Sindarin grammar. Don't worry if some are too hard for you. I tried posting them in different levels. You can post your translations here, but make sure you give fair warning in your post for the people who haven't translated them yet. To those of you who don't want to know the answers to the following translations, read any post after this with caution.

Ok, translate the following into English:

1) "i roch nâg i aran"

2) "Adar nîn nara sinnarn"

3) "in Edhil linna ben daur"


Translate the following into Sindarin"

4) "Dragons dwell in the mountains"

5) "The knight killed his enemy"

6) "The strength of the hero will endure"

If you need any help do ask.

[Laurelin]

Suild, im Galadhur, a pedin edhellen vae.
Greetings i am Galadhur, and i speak elvish well.
I have been suding it for 5 years, but the last 2 years very successfully.

Here is a little poem i wrote:
S/ilad sui tinnu
linnad an chewest,
hammen an i champ gelaidh
a fa^n du, ennas ba^d galadhur.

It is rahter simple.

I would like some chalanges in translating and much more.
at my high school, people don't understand me so they tend to make fun of my elvish and loTR, i get very irritated.

Novaer, gwaith nin, govadatham.
-melianna Galadhur :arwen: :arwen: :arwen:

Nice job on the poem! You got all the mutations right as well! :thumbs: As to the accents, we I usually copy and paste from a cheat sheet so I don't have to remember the keystrokes. Here's (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showpost.php?p=294279&postcount=4)the keystrokes if you want them. I'll chat with Ithil and we'll come up with some things for you but in the meantime if you want to try to translate this, we'd love it! ;)

My bow shall sing with your sword

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Nice work, indeed!!;)Can't wait to see what you do with that translation!;)

And a quick note to everyone:I just made both this and the Quenya thread stickies, so they will be easier to find!;)

[Ireth of Nargothrond]

Hi All! Im new here! (waving)

Im looking for somebody who can teach me elvish! (maybe i should start to lern a better english first ...lol)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

:cuddles:Welcome to WotR, dear Ireth of Nargothrond!:rose:

Learning elvish is very much fun, I'll have to say!;)And there are some wonderful courses around!!I would suggest the courses you can find here for Quenya:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/

And the one you'll find here for Sindarin:
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm

They're both very detailed, written in easy to understand English and they also have exercises, so you can practice!;) There are a lot more useful sites where you can find courses and dictionaries, and, of course, we're here to help you practice as well!;)You can take a look here for more sites...as well as a few tips about sites that you should avoid, if you want to learn properly!:)

http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?t=6274

[hurin]

ive been a fan of tolkiens works for over 16yrs and im despratley trying to find someone with the patients and understanding of this lang. thank you

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, learning the languages is relatively easy, dear Hurin!!:)You can start with some of courses above...and come in here to practice, as we're always willing to help out and practice with you!! ;)

[gilard00]

I recently started learning Sindari (month ago) and i have some problem atm with adjectives (im learning by this book pedin - edhelen Sindarin Course by Thorsten Renk)! well here is the problem in book ( on page 45) it says:

If an -i- occurs in the adjective, i-affection of the prefix needs to be carried out, changing the prefix to en-/ein-.
lint (swift)! ellint (very swift)
iaur (old)! einior (elder)
ring (cold)! edhring (freezing)

and I dont understand if prefix is en- or ein- why in these adjectives is obviously prefix e-; ellint --> prefix is e- and l is doubled? Or is it maybe m changed by some mutation? same in edhring --> prefix e and dh comes from nowhere !

[Laurelin]

Oopsie...didn't see this here. :blush: Goheno nin Gilard00. (forgive me) And thank you for posting it in phrases. veryhappy

[gilard00]

Well i have encountered a small problem, or you could say, I have a question.
So, if i put prefix, gwa- for example, with verb, verb lenitate, and the following word according to Thorsten Renk.

gwaguion vess (I live together with a woman)
gwa+cuion(cuinar) bess // c-->g and v-->b
Does the following word always lenitate, I mean we have 2 lenitations?

:arwen: (just to put some smilie in post :grin:)

[Laurelin]

Yes. This is correct! You did it perfectly. ;)

Anytime you have a prefix such as gwa- or na- or avo-, etc, you will mutate the following word for sure. Then for nouns that are the direct object in the sentence (the first noun in the sentence only - all subsequent nouns are unaffected) will be lenited.

So another example would be:
I told Gwain, friend of the elves, ....
Trenor 'wain, mellon in edhil, ....

Hope this helps. ;)

[gilard00]

It helps a lot Laurelin!
Oh I'm amazed by this forum cause I really like elvish and I want to leran it and I don't have anyone to ask(well now I have) it is better to use past tense I didnt have...;

THaNk you !

PS: I really wonder are you human?
or you are Tolkien's daughter?

[Laurelin]

lol Of course not silly...I'm an elf. :p ;)

Ask anytime you need to. ;)

[Alkarindil]

People, what is the sound of the sindarin "ph"?
Is the same as the english's "PH" in "PHrase", similar to the "F" in "Fake"?
Or maybe the "P" and the "H" are independent?
How do I pronounce "nelphae" (thirty)?

[Laurelin]

Ph's are like English F's like Fake or Phone - all fffff sound. ;) lol Hope that helps.

[Tyrannis]

I am also attempting to learn Sindarin! I only started a few minutes ago when I downloaded a Sindarin course from elvish.org, but already I have delighted in the facts that: 1. There's no indefinite article, and 2. There's no feminine or masculine definite article!
I hope to get a few phrases on here soon, so I'll see you all then!

[Laurelin]

Suilad (greetings) Tyrannis! lol Yes, its rather nice not to be bothered with certain linguistic things that other languages have. Its rather like English with regards to gender specific words - there are none. :)

Another course you might consider is at councilofelrond.com. They are very accurate! :thumbs: I've studied from them and elvish.org. Both are great!

[Tyrannis]

I hope this is the right place for my question.

What is the difference between the pronouns ni, ci, ho and he and the emphatic pronouns im, ech, e and est?

Thanks,
Tyrannis

[Laurelin]

Ok, here we go:
These in red (and there are many others within your course of study from elvish.org) are not anything I've found in Tolkien's books or David Salo's book (he did the translations for the movies), nor at councilofelrond.com (which uses Tolkien's books directly). I'm not sure where the one's I have question marks next to come from. I can't find any reference to them at all.
ech - is a noun meaning "spear"
est - ??
ci - ??

-n (suffix for conjugation of verbs to indicate 1st person singular
-ch (suffix for conjugation of verbs to indicate 2nd person singular)

Regarding he and she pronouns: why are there so many? From my research it appears that JRR Tolkien may have evolved his languages over time, much like English or any other language and hence many words also evolved. Since none of us know definitively what direction Tolkien intended with this evolution, we don't know which version is the more correct one at any given time. Its, sadly, all a guess.

First person singular:

im - "I" (nominative)
nin - "me" (accusative, direct object)
nín - "mine" (genitive)
nîn - "my" (genitive)
enni - "to me" (dative, indirect object)
anim - "for me" (dative, indirect object)


First person plural:

men - "we" (nominative)
mîn - "ours" (genitive)
mín - "us" (accusative)
ammen - "for us" (dative)


Second person singular - "You"

le - "thou" (nominative)
lîn - thy/thine (genitive)
le - "for thee" (dative)
alle -"to thee" (dative)
len - "thee" (accusative)


Third person

ho, hon, hono - all mean "he"
hyn-plural meaning "them" (masculine)

he, hen, hene - all mean "she"
hîn - plural meaning "them" (feminine)

ha, han, hana - all mean "it"
hain - plural meaning "them" (neuter - object rather than person)

pen - "one, someone, anyone"

General pronouns

e - "he/she(?)" (nominative)
în - "his/hers(?)" (genitive)
ane - "for him, to him, to her(?), for her(?)" (dative)
en - "him/her(?)" (accusative)


Other:
ni - "for the" or "to the"

[Tyrannis]

Ok, so regarding that, do you think I should use a course from councilofelrond.com instead?

[Laurelin]

Well...imho, I preferred it to elvish.org because they stuck with Tolkien's work a bit closer, so...yes, if it were me, I'd use councilofelrond.com. ;)

David Salo's book is good too! amazon.com "Gateway to Sindarin"

[Adri92239]

How do you guys get all of the vocabulary that you need in order to form sentences and such? Do you just use word lists or something?

[Laurelin]

Well...we sometimes have to be creative in our usage of certain words. In English we do it all the time. Take for example, "That's cool!" meaning you like a certain thing rather than the literal interpretation of temperature. Tolkien purests would frown on using any Sindarin in this manner of course. We try very hard to limit how much we deviate from the literal meaning of the words that have been written by Tolkien. When we do deviate creatively we say we have.