what if Arwen went with her father, Elrond to the Undeading land, What will happen?

[Lord Raistlin]

what will happen to Aragorn and Arwen?

[TheRingBearer]

It wouldn't happen?

[Lord Raistlin]

May be Aragorn will not marry other ladys

[Kezzy]

maybe he would have married lady Eowyn?¿?¿?

[Lord Raistlin]

lady Eowyn marry someone .

[Lady Melody]

Who knows... he could've married Eowyn, who's generally interested in him cause he's some kind of great-king-to-be, or some other female charactor would be introduced by Tolkien... Many possibilities around ya know...

[Lorien]

Aragorn wouldn't marry anyone else and arwen wouldn't go beyond it wasn't her destiny

[Mirkgirl]

No place left for speculations, Lorien? lol

If Arwen went with her father, one reason or another, Aragorn would have to marry someone, he's a king and hence needs a heir. It won't be Eowyn tho, no matter of the political benefits, I don't think her deceiption that she loves Aragorn could make it to a marriage. Probably the marriage and so on won't even be mentioned in LotR, just briefly in the appendices.

[Lord Raistlin]

Marry Lita from WWE. loll!

[Aragorn Isildur]

Yes.....Ok......The marriage would probably involve someone from further down the Anduin. Possibly one of The Prince of Dol Amroths kin. There believed to be half-elven in some form so they have the pedigree.

Aragorn:king:

[Gwaihir]

I bet Aragorn won't marry anyone, think about her every moment of his mortal life, and die young without her. Good thing it didn't really happen! Elrond would have had to deal with a heart-broken daughter! :shhh: I think Arwen would've died in sadness before she got to the undying lands, anyway:smooch:


__________________
The Road goes ever on and on
Out from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can

[Lorien]

If her father made her go to the undying lands she would probably dislike him forever. Aragorn and Arwen are to much in love, just like Beren and Luthien, but we all know that. He He!!

:elfqueen:

:dragon: :archer: <--- its Bard killing Smaug. I don't care if Bard isn't greens its the only archer.

[Arwen Evenstar]

If she went, it would be because Elrond forced her to.

Arwen would die of a broken heart, Aragorn would be forced to marry someone but die of a broken heart, they re-unite in the Halls of Mandos, happily ever after, leaving a selfish Elrond behind to weep. They're destined to be together for eternity, no matter what.

[Daughter of Feanor]

I agree with you, AE.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Her fate would always be mortality in the end.

[Stormcrow]

I must agree with you AE. Arwen and Aragorn were destined to be together, it was wrong of Elrond to try and force her or 'persuade' her to go to the Undying Lands.

[Arwen Evenstar]

At least in the books he understood that.

[Stormcrow]

Yes. The movies had a fair bit of rivalry between Arwen/Aragorn/Elrond. It was very dramatic, and I suppose it was good in a way, dramatically. It made the love story seem a lot stronger and passionate.

[Arwen Evenstar]

That's one of the bits I liked. I know Elrond was being pretty vain and selfish, even though it was because of his love for Arwen. In the books, he was just like - you become king and you can marry my daughter. It worked pretty simple that way, but I do like to see barriers between them.

[Ranger of Ithilien]

:aa: Aragorn wouldn't marry anyone and stay lonely. :( :( And Arwen would be so sad, she'd probably die of a broken heart! mecry awww but I think Elrond would not have done that, he loved Arwen too much to do something like that to her! :elrond: :arwen: :elessar: :grouphug:

[Stormcrow]

Yes, you are right, Ranger. Elrond's love for his daughter is very deep, indeed. :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes, very deep. He'd want her to be happy.

[Stormcrow]

He was just blinded in his efforts to protect her, when he tried to force her to travel to the Undying Lands. He has always only wanted the best for Arwen. But he understands the gravity of her and Aragorn's relationship. All fathers are like this.

[Arwen Evenstar]

He felt selfish and pure love for Arwen. The selfish bit of him wanted to protect her, while the pure bit of him wnated her to be happy.

[Stormcrow]

Exactly, Arwen. You are totally right.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Thank you! In the books, it was more of a pure love, while in the movies, it was more of a selfish love.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, another one of the many changes involved with screening more Aragorn/Arwen. I think it made it more dramatic and interesting. It complicated their relationship, and although I hate that, I feel it was better for the movie.

[Arwen Evenstar]

It was much more interesting than the book interpreted it, which I liked, though I didn't like Elrond attempting to split them up, yet it was interesting.

[Periantari Andruil]

There's also one basic important point missing in this whole discussion-- the fact that Frodo won't have a place on the ship to leave Middle-Earth. Arwen gave him a place on that ship because of her choice and also gave up immortality and in turn gave Frodo the one thing that would allow (hopefully) for him to find peace.
I think that is a VERY important thing to mention because it not only affects Arwen but Frodo and even Bilbo's fates in MIddle Earth as well.

:frodo: :frodo: :frodo:

[Stormcrow]

Yes, but it was all sorted in the end, wasn't it? Frodo and Bilbo sailed away and Arwen stayed with Aragorn.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes, that was also an important part. Had she gone, Bilbo and Frodo would have carried a burden until death.

[Stormcrow]

So why is it that they all couldn't have gone?

[Arwen Evenstar]

Erm, there wasn't enough room for everyone??? Basically, only immortals are supposed to go to the Undying Lands, I think, unless they are offered a place by an elf who wishes to stay behind.

[Stormcrow]

Oh, I see. I don't really like that rule much, but I guess I understand it.

[Arwen Evenstar]

No mortals were supposed to enter the undying lands anyway. Only one man has ever entered there, and that was Tuor.

[Stormcrow]

Oh, now I get it all. The elves were very gracious to let Frodo and Bilbo go to the Undying Lands. They were very lucky indeed! :grin:

[Arwen Evenstar]

Because they had carried such a burden, all the ring bearers were allowed to go, but not Sauron or Gollum if they survived, I doubt.

[Stormcrow]

Of coarse they would not allow Sauron or Gollum there. lol

[Arwen Evenstar]

If they did, it would have been destroyed within seconds.

[Megara]

hahax..
lets say that theory was right, then who sacrificed his/her place for Sam, and come to think of it, Gimli?

[Elfdaughter]

They probably took the place of an Elf who died during the war.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Quite possibly, actually.

[Stormcrow]

Good theory, Elfdaughter!

[Megara]

But that is controversial... I mean the elves who died (plenty elves died during the wars) do not give or indicate anything about giving their places..
Say that the elves who died during the war automatically give their places in Valinor, does that also mean that anybody could go into Valinor? There is the ban..

[Gwaihir]

Maybe Frodo went ahead of Sam so he could make a reservation in Valinor for him. lol

I don't think that the Elves who "died" can give their places in Valinor (I'm saying "died" because they can't really die like Men do; they can't leave Arda)... after all, their spirits might get out of the Halls of Mandos and be reunited with their body in Valinor or elsewhere.

[JemFinch]

There's also one basic important point missing in this whole discussion-- the fact that Frodo won't have a place on the ship to leave Middle-Earth. Arwen gave him a place on that ship because of her choice and also gave up immortality and in turn gave Frodo the one thing that would allow (hopefully) for him to find peace.
I think that is a VERY important thing to mention because it not only affects Arwen but Frodo and even Bilbo's fates in MIddle Earth as well.

:frodo: :frodo: :frodo:

You're exactly right, I forgot about that. That was never really made a part in the movie, except possibly after Frodo was stabbed by the ringwraith, and Arwen says, "May the grace that was given me be passed to him. Let him be spared. Save him." Could that be a reference to the fact that Frodo took Arwen's spot on the ship? :huh: (That was really great in the book, and one of the first times we ever see Arwen say anything.)

[Lady Galadriel]

I don't think that the Elves who "died" can give their places in Valinor (I'm saying "died" because they can't really die like Men do; they can't leave Arda)... after all, their spirits might get out of the Halls of Mandos and be reunited with their body in Valinor or elsewhere.

I agree. Elves can't give up their grace. In Arwen's case, however, I think the key is her ability to choose. Other elves didn't have a choice.:mmmm:

[Megara]

Hmm.. I think that is the most satisfying answer Lady G..
Very good.. very good..

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe Frodo went ahead of Sam so he could make a reservation in Valinor for him. lol

I don't think that the Elves who "died" can give their places in Valinor (I'm saying "died" because they can't really die like Men do; they can't leave Arda)... after all, their spirits might get out of the Halls of Mandos and be reunited with their body in Valinor or elsewhere.

Quite true, because the Halls of Mandos is in Valinor.

[Stormcrow]

Well, this topic does have a lot of spectulation, but I think Lady Galadriel is totally right. If they choose to give up their light or immortality, they can. After all, they are one of the most magical races in Middle Earth.

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, this topic does have a lot of spectulation, but I think Lady Galadriel is totally right. If they choose to give up their light or immortality, they can. After all, they are one of the most magical races in Middle Earth.

Nah, Stormcrow, that's not what I said. ;) I said that Arwen -as one of Elrond's children- can give up her choice to be immortal. Other elves could not give up their life's grace/immortality. Arwen's choice was inherited from Earendil & Elwing. :)

[Stormcrow]

Well then, that is even better! :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes, I see Lady Galadriel. She has a choice of being immortal or not. I think she did kind of choose immortality to begin with, because she said, "The children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar!"

[Stormcrow]

Yeah, it's a shame really, when you think about it. But a shame for a good cause. She gave up her immortality for love, and that is a beautiful thing for anyone to ever do. The whole 'Arwen is dying' thing, I assume, is tied with Elronds connections with the Eldar and his higher being.

[Arwen Evenstar]

That was a little confusing, I meant, she was still an elf at that time, and immortal, kinda.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah, that was an unexplainable twist. :) But I have heard some interesting theories about that one...none of them enough to satisfy that twist but good speculation nonetheless.

[Periantari Andruil]

You're exactly right, I forgot about that. That was never really made a part in the movie, except possibly after Frodo was stabbed by the ringwraith, and Arwen says, "May the grace that was given me be passed to him. Let him be spared. Save him." Could that be a reference to the fact that Frodo took Arwen's spot on the ship? :huh: (That was really great in the book, and one of the first times we ever see Arwen say anything.)

That *could* be a reference to Frodo being saved by her grace but i am against Flight to the FOrd movie-verse and any dialogue from there i just cringe, at but yes, it is a good point you mentioned of it possibly being the movie equivalent of what was in the books in the chapter "Many Partings".
BUt going back to the original question of this thread and how it relates to what i'm interested in is the fact that if Arwen stayed, Frodo would die in Middle Earth. :( mecry mecry mecry
Who else could spare their spot on the ship to leave ME?

And Arwen would live... and be immortal in Valinor with ELrond and Celebrian... and not be with her one true love. :aragorn:

[Stormcrow]

Wow, that is an interesting theory, guys! :thumbs:

[Arwen Evenstar]

That *could* be a reference to Frodo being saved by her grace but i am against Flight to the FOrd movie-verse and any dialogue from there i just cringe, at but yes, it is a good point you mentioned of it possibly being the movie equivalent of what was in the books in the chapter "Many Partings".
BUt going back to the original question of this thread and how it relates to what i'm interested in is the fact that if Arwen stayed, Frodo would die in Middle Earth. :( mecry mecry mecry
Who else could spare their spot on the ship to leave ME?

And Arwen would live... and be immortal in Valinor with ELrond and Celebrian... and not be with her one true love. :aragorn:


Brilliant theory, Periantari Andruil!

[angelica83]

That was a good post Periantari! I adore Arwen, book and film!