Sailing into the West

[A! Elbereth]

Please, do not think me stupid in asking this, but in the past few days, my mind keeps on wandering to The Grey Havens. As we all know, all who go there, may never return. But I am still somewhat confused about it all. Exactly what is it that keeps anyone from returning? I feel a little stupid asking this, and I keep thinking I should know the answer, but I don't ever remember a thorough explanation to why none could return. Its eating me up inside, and I am desperate to know.

Anyone know?

omg I feel so stupid*

[Tar-Ancalimë]

IMO, in the impression i received is, no one who leaves wishes to return... they go to Valinor, accross the sea, right? Their destination isn't the Grey Havens, I think it's only a bypoint. I think. And so, upon going to Valinor (or whatever, I'm not sure on this point), they don't wish to back to ME....

[Mirkgirl]

yes the grey heavens are a bypoint, not a destination. Destination is Valinor or Tol Eressëa, if the Valar were not willing to allow them back in Valinor.
I'm not sure whether it says anywhere straight forward "it is forbidden to go back". But it has to be as the ones who leave ME, leave it forever, leave its grieves and joys. ME is not home for elves anymore, it's a kingdom of men.
I don't think it needs to be said to be forbidden anyway as it is quite fair - you are given the permission to go (back) to Valinor, if you decide to accept this honour it's a decision for the rest of your life.

[TheRingBearer]

Maybe Tolkien was trying to incorperate his story into realist history as an explanation to why there are no evidence of elves... or that might just be me :grin:

Or the grey Havens is a metaphor for Heaven??? :huh: It's just a matter of opinion really.

[A! Elbereth]

This helps a little, but does that mean if one wished to go back, they could but are not allowed, or it is frowned upon? Because obviously someone has to go back to bring Sam to Valinor...

This brings another question to mind... or a guess...

The ship seems to just sail West, as if they are just going to another mass of land... or is there more to it than that....

BTW- sorry if I sound blunt and idiotic, but I'm looking for answers because I am writing a huge essay on LOTR... and its going to take a while lol

[Sindarin]

I agree with Tar-Ancalime and Mirkgirl. The Grey Havens is a bypoint, rather than a destination.

[Catz]

there is a physical destination, yes......but that doesnt mean that it isnt a metaphor, nor that the journey takes place merely on the physical plane.....you are free to place your own interpretation upon it as you will....thats one of the great beauties of books...they allow you to use your mind
to my way of thinking Valinor was on a seperate plane of existance from ME......the boat travel merely a mental device made physical.....the meaning of ocean in many psychological systems is the unconcious....so you are setting sail over the depths of your own being in a sense...
:catz:

[Algamesh]

Catz ... you beat me to it.

The journey over the ocean is in my opinion, the transition to the spiritual. "Death" in a sense. But not a dramatic and tragic ending. A celebration of continuance.

I suppose that the only route back would be divine intervention. Gandalf was sent ... I suppose other inhabitants of the Blessed Realm could be sent (resurrected or reincarnated) if there was a divine need. I don't think anyone could choose to come back because of what catz was saying.

[A! Elbereth]

What about the elves that return the ships to Middle Earth, they must return to M.E., go to Valinor, and then go to M.E. again...

And they call it Middle Earth... I always was curious if that was all the Earth was... did Tolkein ever talk about more of the World they live on? Was did the middle stand for? Or was Middle Earth the Earth? oh dear I have too much spare time on my hands

[Grond]

Here is an excerpt from Tolkien's Letters which sheds a little light on the subject.from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter 181 To Michael Straight [drafts]
[Before writing a review of The Lord of the Rings, Michael Straight, the editor of New Republic, wrote to Tolkien asking a number of questions: first, whether there was a 'meaning' in Gollum's rôle in the story and in Frodo's moral failure at the climax; second, whether the 'Scouring of the Shire' chapter was directed especially to contemporary England; and third, why the other voyagers should depart from the Grey Havens with Frodo at the end of the book – 'Is it for the same reason that there are those who gain in the victory but cannot enjoy it?']
[Not dated; probably January or February 1956.]
Dear Mr Straight,

...Of course, in fact exterior to my story. Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural trend, and weakness. The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' – sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves – not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or destruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born. This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable). Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God. But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from an), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart. Gandalf is a special case. He was not the maker or original holder of the Ring – but it was surrendered to him by Círdan, to assist him in his task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.

The passage over Sea is not Death. The 'mythology' is Elf-centred. According to it there was at first an actual Earthly Paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth.

There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology. Gandalf is a 'created' person; though possibly a spirit that existed before in the physical world. His function as a 'wizard' is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided. But since in the view of this tale & mythology Power – when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) – is evil, these 'wizards' were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body. They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possibility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed. Gandalf did not. But the situation became so much the worse by the fall of Saruman, that the 'good' were obliged to greater effort and sacrifice. Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees. That is why I regard the tale of Arwen and Aragorn as the most important of the Appendices; it is pan of the essential story, and is only placed so, because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure: which is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble.

[None of the drafts from which this text has been assembled was completed.]I apologize for the length of this quote but it provides great insight into why the Elves left (the loss of the Three Rings and their preserving effects) as well as giving a synopsis of the main difference between Elf and Man in a spiritual sense. This Spiritual Difference is why Elves were welcome into Aman and Man was not.