The Elven Army In The Last Alliance: Arms And Armor, Noldor Or Sindar?

[FAR HARAD]

I'VE DONE SOME RESEARCH AND CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE ARMY USES SINDAR SWORDS, SHIELDS AND ARMOR. BY THIS TIME NOLDOR CULTURE HAS ASSIMILATED TO THE SINDAR CULTURE, SEEING THAT THERE WERE NOT AS MANY AS THERE WAS IN THE FIRST AGE. PLUS THE NOLDOR IAN SWORDS GLAMDRING AND STING ARE VERY DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND DESIGN COMPARED TO ELROND'S/ARWEN'S SWORD, LEGOLAS'S KNIVES, AND THE BLADE OF GIL-GALAD'S SPEAR.

[Finrod Felagund]

I don't think you can use what you saw in the movie as a comparison of what Noldo or Sinda weaponry were like. The only reference to curved bladed Elven swords was of Noldo ElfLord of Gondolin, Ecthelion maybe, I'll have to root around to find the reference.
I think they took some artistic liscence to design the armor and weopons in the Movie. They really blew Sting. It started out as an unadorned knife, not an inscripted leaf blade short sword. Except in a few places,Tolkien wasn't too specific in armory description, shape and what not.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

aye...and what kind of research did you do? Because as Finrod said, Tolkien didn't write about that. Plus, what he does write about didn't exactly get faithfully translated into the movie. Besides the appearance of Sting, they're messing up the Narsil reforging in the movie... therefore I wouldn't give that much credit to something based on the movie...granted, though, many areas that weren't defined, they did do the best they could, and it wasn't bad per ce.

As to the question, Noldor v Sindar, knowing only some history and not much about weapons, without specialized knowledge, I would say they would have to be Sindar. Unless ofc you start talking about culture assimilation, but then that is a different subject entirely. The weopons are still either Sindar or Noldor, without any regard to which came first or who took what from whom.

[Hans_Schuder]

I think FAR HARAD (carefull there with the Caps Lock btw, HARAD) may have consciously made his/her intent based exclusively on the film's interpretations. :)

On the weapons in general, since they were an interpretation I'm not really sure how they could have "blown" Sting or any other weapon based squarely on the book's description (not that Tolkien offered much). I'm not at all displeased with the effects John Howe, Daniel Falconer, Warren Mahy and Ben Wooton achieved. I thought it was brilliant work. :thumbs:

Like John Howe said, Tolkien had curious tastes in weaponry. Once you make the decision to follow a more realisitc, less gawdy route in designing the weapons it necessarily follows that you would have to be liberal with many of Tolkien's motifs concerning weapons description instead of preserving those motifs. So, I'm more than inclined to admit the designer's own creativity in areas where Tolkien was more specific as long as it also offered a good effect.

Personally, I know that disturbed some people, but I prefer the routes they took - plate armor, use of non-european influences, bit less fantasy look - than confining themselves to Tolkien's dictates. :grin:

[FAR HARAD]

Please don't get me wrong. I LOVE THE WEAPON DESIGNS FOR THE MOVIE/MOVIES! OOHHHYEAAAAHHH!!!
(I'm working on that caps thing. sorry.)

[Catz]

well the fact is that Tolkien was not a weapons expert either....i agree Hans....its kind of hard to "blow" something that has such a sketchy outline to start with....the word knife covers a lot of ground, and isnt really that specific.
and Tar.......theyre moving the Narsil reforging....thats hardly "messing it up" lol and weapons are very like anything else...you dont have one moving into another without transitional forms, and in this case where one has slowly supplanted the other you would expect elements of the older forms to persist into the newer ones...i personally think that they made good choices, keeping the elegance that was required for the elves, whilst keeping a style distinctly seperate for them, from the men, at the same time staying within the technological limits of the era...
:catz:

[Hans_Schuder]

You know I was looking at the WEAT Workshop documentary on the DVD, and I was actually surprised... at being surprised of how small the 1:1 scale Sting looks in Richard Taylor's hand.

It really is a knife. It just looks so big in the little Hobbitses hands. :)

[Gil-galad Elven King]

I think some of the Armor and Weapons were Noldor because Gil-galads troops were Noldori

[Catz]

yu also have to take into account the fact that blades designed for personal use, tend to have a more decorative aspect than blades used in battles by armies which tend by their nature to be more conservative in design.....so i dont think that you can use the difference between the curved blades, the leaf blades and the swords weilded by the army as a factor in aging the weapons....also there is the factor that elven culture would tend because of its longevity, to have many forms in vogue at any given time, because each elf would have his weapons made for him or her and then keep thim until they wore out...
:catz:

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Suilad, mellyn, a mae govannen!
I LOVE blades, and i think that in LotR, the Elves may have personalized their swords, or have differents makes of them to their own liking.
Cuio mae, boe anim baded

[Melthavron]

The movie Sting must have been an unadorned knife originally. The inscription, which includes "I am the spider's bane", must have been done after Bilbo's fight with them in Mirkwood, probably by the Elves of Rivendell.

[IronHills Dwarf]

I would say that the best way to answer the question is to look at Gilgalad. No one can deny that he was a Noldor. It would seem strange for a King of the remment of the Noldor to be using what we could term Sindar weaponry. I think that most likely we could say the because the Sindar had such close contact with the Noldor it is more likely that Sindar weaponry got Noldorized as the Noldor were certainly more skilled with metal. Also that would explain the similarities with the weapons of the Lorien elves as some Sindar and Noldor removed to Lorien. And on the question of the different shape of Glamdring we could also say that it is possible that that type of design (I really go out on a limb here) was brought to Gondolin by Maeglin as he had plenty of contact with the dwarves (and Glamdring has a certain resemblence to Narsil). Thats sort of a wild theory but something to think about. Of course the really short answer is of course that the weapons of the Noldor simply developed over time.

[Finrod Felagund]

IronHills, I like that explanation of why Glamdring resembled Narsil, I had never thought of that

[IronHills Dwarf]

Thanks Finrod. Its more of a wild theory for a guy (that would be me!) who really likes the design of both the more standard elvish blades and the very cool design of Glamdring to explain the differences for my own mind. There are of course many other possiblites such as the fact the the dwarves had extensive trade in mail and weapons with the elves. But the Maeglin theory is a bit more fun. ;)

[FlameoftheWest]

I agree with the "Gil-Galad is a Noldor" theory. I mean, he was KING of the Noldor in Lindon (or what remained of it). Keep in mind we've never actually seen Noldorian armor as opposed to Sindarin armor.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Very true Flame. But also keep in mind that it is mentioned in Tolkien's writtings that in many places the Sindar dwelt with the Noldor (if I remmeber correctly this would be after the ruin of Doriath) at the end of the first age and that in Lindon many Sindar dwelt also. It is just as possible that the Sindar and Noldor cultures found common ground on weaponry and that after the merger there was no longer a distinctive armour pattern or weaponry for either. In this kind of arguement we can say that Glamdring shows the much older Noldor design before the Noldor merged with the Sindar.

[Voroturiön]

Actually, the Prologue Elven Armour is intended to be ~Noldorian~ in design, IMNSHO. Thus evidenced by the tengwar inscriptions of G.G., i.e. Gil-galad on the High Elven Warrior shields. Considering that Gil-galad was the last Noldorian King in ME ruling all of the Elven nations, I think that it is fair to deduce that the armour and weapons of the Elves of the Last Alliance are would be Noldorian.

The Sindar were not clearly protrayed in the Prologue. But, remember that most of Thingol's armoury was forged by the Naugrim (Dwarves).

In the first battle in the wars of Beleriand:
"...the victory of the Elves was dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs..."-Silm p.96

Thus quoteth the Unfininshed Tales on Legolas's Grandfather:
"Oropher had the wisdom to foresee that peace would not return unless Sauron was overcome. He therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle. The Silvan Elves were hardy and valiant, but ill-equiped with armour or weapons in comparision with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. There losses were thus more grievous than they need have been, even in that terrible war. ...Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor...Thranduil his sun survived..."p.271.

Therefore, the Prologue Elven Armour is Noldorian.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

hey Voroturion - I see that you're quite familiar with Tolkien's books! :) I'm also kinda obsessed with them ;)
I agree that it must have been the Noldor - mostly in the sense that they were much better equipped for battle, with the weapons of Feanor. After all, they did introduce the sword to the Elves of Beleriand! ;)

[Voroturiön]

Hey Celebriel. I like the Plato quote in your sig! :)

Yes, I love all of Tolkien's writings. Especially, the history of the Noldor. I just got "The War of the Jewels" by Christopher T. Its making a very interesting read.

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

:) ;) I love it too! lol check out my thread in the "Other movies" forum, called "Black Hawk Down/Windtalkers". I'm tryin' to get a good conversation going about war, et al.

[Gil Galad]

thats a very good argument Ironhills.i like it allot

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

INdeed, there are some great points made in this tread about Tolkien's works. I enjoy reading them, but haven't the time to think up one of my own. Maybe some other time.....
Cuio mae,
~Celebriel