Immortality/ mortality choice

[Tar-Ancalimë]

This might be kinda dumb, but can anyone help me here?


Luthien chose to become mortal for Beren.

Tuor however got to become immortal (?) for Idril.


Did Beren have this choice? Did they just want to stay in Arda or something?


And what about Arwen... why did she have to become mortal for Aragorn, why could she not live with him until he died and then go to Valinor? I know she says, "there is no longer any ship that would bear me hence" or sth like that in RotK, but I've always thought that many elves stayed in ME, then left... would she seriously be the last one? Too late to leave? Somehow that sounds wrong to me.
Legolas, for example, stayed a long time in ME... but then he leaves. I don't get it.


Oh, and another one...sorry guys. Well, Elrond's children got to choose whether they would be of Edain or Eldar........so why not Elros's children? This makes no sense to me!

[Grond]

Good points one and all... Tar. And, as usual, I can't give you a good answer without doing a little research first. I'll get back to you. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Oh ok thanks :grin: um I really appreciate it :)

[Lady Melody]

Maybe the Tuor becoming immortal for Idril was a glitch or error in Tolkien's part, because all I'm seeing is that Elf-Human relationships ended up with the immortal sacrificing that advantage to uh, have the privelage to die. Regarding the Elros's kids getting to chose, I think that it's because Elrond and Elros was kids to a mortal and immortal, so that count, but their own kids doesn't get a choice because they're not part of the deal.

And yeah, maybe Lady Arwen was the last elf in Middle-Earth... and maybe she just preferred to die and follow Aragorn to meet him in the Afterlife... who knows... Tolkien brought the answers with him into the grave.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Chibi Melody
Maybe the Tuor becoming immortal for Idril was a glitch or error in Tolkien's part, because all I'm seeing is that Elf-Human relationships ended up with the immortal sacrificing that advantage to uh, have the privelage to die. Regarding the Elros's kids getting to chose, I think that it's because Elrond and Elros was kids to a mortal and immortal, so that count, but their own kids doesn't get a choice because they're not part of the deal.

And yeah, maybe Lady Arwen was the last elf in Middle-Earth... and maybe she just preferred to die and follow Aragorn to meet him in the Afterlife... who knows... Tolkien brought the answers with him into the grave. I tend to disagree. Luthien was the only Elf ever to be granted a "human mortality". And she was granted that privilege only because of her emotional appeal to Mandos. from The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien
And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, not has been since.There was only one other union of true Mortal and true Eldar and that was Tuor and Idril. In this union, it was Tuor who was granted Eldar status, the only Man ever to receive such grace. I don't feel Tuor is a glitch because he was taken under the Guardianship of Ulmo and I'm sure that Ulmo spoke for him before the Council of Doom in Valinor. There is no explanation given for the "grace" of his changing from Man to Elf but it could not have been accomplished without the assent of Eru.

[Elendur]

that Arwen's choice was to will the end to her own life, after Aragorn's life ended. I think that she could have lived longer if she had so chosen. As I read it she was born with immortality and unless, as in Luthien's case ( as was already stated ) there was some intervention by the Valar, she would have so remained if she had so wished.
As for Elros and Elrond, they had both elven and human blood so were given the choice again by the Valar.. Elros made the choice to be human.. althought with greatly extended life.. and this choice was made not only for him but his descendants. Elrond did the same and chose to be immortal.. and so his decendants followed this path. They could not as I understand it choose to be mortal, but it seems that they ,like the Numenorian decendants, could order the time of their own death if they so wished??

That was always my reading on this.. but I am very open to other opinions?:grin:

[Catz]

thats always been my reading of it too Elendur...that Arwen chose to pass from this life after the death of Aragorn....i cant remember the wording exactly, but even the passage in the book where she dies suggests this
she didnt so much give up her immortality as accept the fact that she would be alone eventually and would have to take the choice of remaining alone or passing from ME.
and i dont think there were any more ships after Legolas...in fact im sure it was mentioned somewhere that his was the last....all the elves that remained in ME took the same choice as Arwen....there was no way to reach Valinor....and this is just my reading, but i think that Valinor, as well as a physical destination, was also a voyage in time and space and to get there you needed the permission of Eru, which by staying on, she and the other elves who remained in ME had forfeited...tho why that would be i dont know lol
:catz:

[Elendur]

but my thoughts are that they never forfeited the right to return to Valinor.. only the Feanorian Noldor did that or had it taken from them, and even Galadriel had that ban rescinded eventually.
I always thought that if they had wanted to find Valinor it would be possible for an elf... did not Legolas build his own ship, as Cirdan the shipwright had already passed into the West with Gandalf??
I only thought that they chose not to leave Middle Earth.. and in so doing also chose when to give up their life.. not to have it ended by a definitive span imposed upon them??
It is possible that the Valar imposed a time limit on returning to Valinor, before taking the realm out of reach... will have to read over some of the histories again!!

Good point though!:thumbs:

[Grond]

A couple of things.

1) All elves could (if they wished) return to Aman (paradise). After all the ships had departed, they would have had to abandon their physical body to do so. It makes it clear in Morgoth's Ring, HoMe X, that the spirit (fea) when freed from the body (hroa) will always seek the Halls of Mandos. It also makes it clear that an Elf can abandon the physical body at will (normally under great stress, as did Arwen (although a Peredhil Half-elf) and as did Miriel, Finwe's first wife and mother of Feanor.

2) Elrond and his children were given the choice whether to be counted among Men or Elves. Elrond chose early to be counted as an Elf. The children were born with the fea (spirit) of an elf but would at some point have to make a choice. When they chose, they would be bound by the rules of their choice. The published text of the LotR makes it clear that the actual choice was not made until death. It appears that Arwen still could have gone to Valinor if she could have found transport or she could have gone spiritually had she decided to be separated forever from Aragorn's fate.

It appears, in the end, that she died in Lorien and chose the fate of man and that her end is sundered from that of her father and that her soul now suffers that same fate of Aragorn and Man, where the Elves know not.

The choice of the heirs of Elrond is first pointed out in Appendix A of LotR:But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, there fore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.

[Lady Melody]

Aye, but I still need to research that.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ok i see that... but i never got the idea that the numenoreans could order the hour of their death... which is why they were so easy prey for sauron... which is what i dont understand, elrond's children chose... but elros's children were impatient with his choice, and wished to have the life of an Eldar... or am i wrong...?

[Grond]

Tar,

you've stumbled onto another Tolkien conundrum. Elrond's children get a choice. Elros' do not. Doesn't make sense except that's the way Tolkien wrote it.

[Elendur]

so much as a conundrum.. the choices that were made by Elros and Elrond were to effect their later generations - as they were granted this gift by the Valar.. As stated, once you have a mortal lifespan, it could not be extended, but you could within reason and within your allotted span chose the time of your death. Once you were immortal you had no actual given span, but it appears that you could also chose to die or as Grond stated travel to the Halls of Waiting with Mandos. I suppose this is what annoyed the later Numenorians in that they saw the Eldar as having all the best options!

[Mirkgirl]

I can't understand what do you have against the choices of Elrond and Elros... they make perfect sence to me - the real choice, the important choices are always given to one (or few as in here), not to everyone from the same bloodline. It'd have been a lot more strange if the Valar went to every descendant when he or she reaches 21 and ask "Do you want to be elven or human?". Not to mention that when Elrond (1/2 elven) marries Celebrian (1/1elven), the children are (3/4 elven); when Elros (1/2 elven) marries a woman(0/2 elven), their children are (1/4 elven). Well enough of genetics. Another thing is that Elros and Elrond lived like half-elven in times when men and elves were fighting together. They lived like half-elven in both human and eleven environment. Elros' childern live among men only in Numenor... what would have happened if they could chose? The firstborn, the next ruler wants to be human, the rest want to be elven because they're neglected :rolleyes:
As I said it's absurd... I don't even know why I typed all this
Ah, yes as it was already said and I don't think Elrond's children have any special choice, different from the others.

On Arwen's choice I think we're missing something here: Luthien. She is believed to be the next Luthien, then it doesn't seem that strange to give immortality up.
These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
And as Arwen said "for mine is the choice of Lúthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter". She has made her choice - to stay in Middle Earth and become the new Luthien, with both sweet (staying with her love), but both with the bitter (she could not go to Valinor, with or without ship, with or without anything she'd probably never see her father anymore (well maybe the Valar/Eru would made an exception but... not the same thing.))

[Grond]

Ad far as I understand it, the grace of choice only went to Elrond's children and not any further down the line. It makes no sense because the children of Elros were afforded no choice and were not deemed Peredhil. If Elros chose to be counted among Men and Elrond chose to be counted among Elves, why would Elrond's children be referred to as Peredhil and accorded a choice also and not Elros'?

[Tar-Ancalimë]

thats what i was thinking grond...

as far as the choices that were made by Elros and Elrond were to effect their later generations - as they were granted this gift by the Valar.. As stated, once you have a mortal lifespan, it could not be extended, but you could within reason and within your allotted span chose the time of your death. Once you were immortal you had no actual given span, but it appears that you could also chose to die perhaps i understood your words wrong but tolkien explicitly states that to elronds children the choice was given... and elros children bite at the bit as they have no choice...



Another thing is that Elros and Elrond lived like half-elven in times when men and elves were fighting together. They lived like half-elven in both human and eleven environment. Elros' childern live among men only in Numenor... what would have happened if they could chose? The firstborn, the next ruler wants to be human, the rest want to be elven because they're neglected again maybe i am interpreting what you say wrong, but this doesnt make too much sense that tolkien (chris maybe) rammed it into our heads that elronds children receive the choice of mortality/immortality... he says that many times... whereas the akallabeth also makes clear that elros children do not have a choice. again this is rammed into us. common sense or no (oh and like you have any of that irky..... j/k) this is a theme even and it makes no sense! its a conundrum to me, thanks

[Catz]

i dont actually think that "JRR" ever stated that Elronds children had a "choice" as such......other than referring to Arwen, who was not so much a choice as a rejection of what she had
And Mirky just reminded me of the other issue. Elronds issue were 3/4 blood where Elros' were1/3.....tho whether or not that made any difference is another question. Arwen did not "give up her immortality" as such i dont think........i think that had she not "wished to die" that she would have lived on, but who would do that? alone and without any of her peers or her husband...i think she chose to die i think that perhaps had she appealed to Eru and the Valar to be allowed to return to Valinor that they may have granted her request.......but she stuck to her choice, and with Valinor closed to her, her spirit went to wherever the spirits of mortals went......as i say, ive always thought of Valinor as a destination not only in the physical sense but also another plane of existance, that could very easily be closed off to those who did not have the "key"
anyway......speculation all lol.......but fun nonetheless
:catz:

[Grond]

Maybe this quote (which I have already posted on this thread once) was actually written by someone other than the author??
from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.

[Elendur]

On this is more in the interpretation. The children of Elrond were already Elven,...that choice had been made by their father and was granted to them and all their future generations, I do not think that that Valar would have rescinded this promise without great cause. My own feeling is that, if the children of Elrond had stayed in Middle Earth after the "last boat" had sailed to Valinor, they would have only mortal friends left, and would in time become weary of watching all the people that they knew and loved die over and over again. This I feel would have wearied them too greatly and they would have, in turn decided to end their own lives??

[Catz]

well actually i was ignoring the appendices, because as you have pointed out elsewhere Grond, they have been extensively edited...but OK...then if you accept that then, yes they had a choice...but that doesnt alter what has been said at all really...the point of difference is that if i am correct, you believe that Arwen "chose mortality and thus had to die"....whereas i believe that she "remained immortal but chose the life of a mortal, which would mean that when Aragorn passed, she would be alone and would eventually choose to pass from the world, of her own accord, but with no way to reach Valinor she would be left with the fate of men...whatever that was...."
i think that any elf left in ME was effectively mortal, because they would all eventually tire of life, particularly alone...and pass from the world.
:catz:

[Grond]

The real conundrum here is the voyage of the soul after death. If Arwen died on Middle-earth but wasn't really of the race of "Man", then her soul would have returned to the "Halls of Mandos" in Valinor. If her soul returned to Valinor, then there is a blatant error in the Lord of the Rings Proper, which was written by no one other than the author.from The Return of the King, Many Partings
Aragorn and his knights, and the people of Lurien and of Rivendell, made ready to ride; but Faramir and Imrahil remained at Edoras; and Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her brethren. None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.The key word in that passage is highlighted. Arwen made an unrevokable choice to be counted among mortals. In making that choice, her soul no longer would wait in the Halls of Mandos and eventually be reunited with her Father. Instead, her soul would follow that of Aragorn whence only Manwe, Mandos and Eru know.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. Tolkien (the author) makes it clear that Arwen chose the fate of man. Not only to suffer death as a mortal but to suffer the hereafter as a mortal too.

One last little thing, the reference I cited from the Index in one of my previous posts was from the October 1966 revisions which gave us the main Appendices as we know them today (they were not included in the First Printing). Those, too, are the author's words. ;)

[Elendur]

Grond, but I still believe that the interpretation of the words is open to debate and everyone will have their own opinion. Personally I believe that as Elrond was travelling to Valinor and was not likely to die.. ever.. then that to me would constitute the end of days.. until such time as the Valar no longer held sway.
Even if Arwen's spirit was then residing in the halls of Mandos she and her father would never again meet without possible intervention by the Valar....the circumstances behind such an intervention were historically very slim.. so at their time of parting neither of them were counting on this.
However as stated your opinion and interpretation has equal possability in my eyes so we will just have to agree to differ on this point!:thumbs:

[Grond]

from The Silmarillion, Chapter 19 - Of Beren and Luthien
...They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.I am unsure why Finrod would walk with his father Finarfin in Valinor yet (if she was there in the Halls of Mandos) Arwen would not be reunited with her father.from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #153 to Peter Hastings written in September, 1954
Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant.from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #154 to Ms. Naomi Mitchison dated September 25, 1954
The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Letter #345 To Mrs Meriel Thurston dated November 30, 1972
Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.Okay.... this is my last ditch effort to convince you that Tolkien meant that Arwen really chose the "Fate of Man", meaning that upon her death she left the confines of the Valar and that her soul did not go to the Halls of Mandos. If this leaves you unconvinced, I will gladly admit defeat. If I seem adamant, I apologize... but I don't think Luthien nor Arwen's fate was meant to be left up to the imagination / opinion of the reader. I think Tolkien had it very clear in his mind what he was trying to convey.

[Tar-Palantir]

I could not agree more with you Grond, you have at least convinced one person!

[Lady Melody]

In other words, Arwen still get to go to Valinor, issit?

[Tar-Ancalimë]

well i dont think that was ever a subject of this debate. but even tho thats so, ill answer your q: no... she doesnt... she dies in Lorien... remember?

[Grond]

Tar-Ancalime,
I forgot to continue our conversation. The first quote I used in my previous post directly relates to our earlier discussion concerning the "Why Elrond's children got choices and Elros' did not." In summary it said:from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #153
...Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choicesIt appears the since Elrond married an Elf that his children also received a choice.

Makes sense to me!:cool:

[Grond]

Anxiously awaits Tar to point out where I've contradicted myself. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

lol well ok you asked for it then... ....Elrond's children get a choice. Elros' do not. Doesn't make sense except that's the way Tolkien wrote it. .....It appears the since Elrond married an Elf that his children also received a choice.

Makes sense to me!:cool:same subject... and different, completely contradictory, posts...

[Tar-Palantir]

:grin:

[Grond]

Yes... but as I researched the material, the Letters enlightened me. I understood why Elrond's children were given a choice because of the Elvish blood of their mother Celebrien. from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #153 to Peter Hastings written in September, 1954 Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. :blush:
I did contradict myself, but should have pointed out in my posts why I changed my mind. It was because I became more educated through research. :);)

[Ithielnor]

Ok, my whole take on this is that it all hangs on the word 'Half-elven' I get the impression that if a person is 1/2 or more elvish but not full elvish they get a choice, thus Elrond and Elros both get a choice because they're both 1/2 elvish blood (though if work it out they are really slightly more), so when Elrond married an elf his children became about 3/4 elf and they got to choose, but when Elros married a mortal his children were aprox. 1/4 elf so they got no choice.

This is all speculation on my part from your arguments and insights, and my own reading, I have not, however, read all of JRRT's work so if this is contradicted elsewhere please correct me. :grin:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ha ha grond i didnt mean to bring that up at all, but i saw your post over in feanors motive, and i couldnt help it. i know i contradict myself all the time.

and now since we're so terribly off topic, ill just shut up before our lovely oderator comes and yells at us :grin: (awww jk irky we luv ya really)

[Lalaith]

OK, my general opinion on this is that:
Luthien was the only Elf who truly became mortal and in dying, passed beyond the circles of the world.
Tuor was mortal but had acheived great things for the Eldar, and, as was already pointed out, had obtained the grace of Ulmo. Turgon saw no disgrace in letting his daughter marry this particular mortal.
Earendil, Elwing and their offspring had the choice - even though Earendil's leanings were more 'mortal' ,shall we say, he chose to be numbered among the FIrst Born because of his love for Elwing who was very much an elf chick!
Elros chose mortality( - eventually leading to Aragorn...)
Elrond chose Elfhood - his children also had the choice of mortality or immortality because they were Peredhil or Half-Elven.
In dying, Arwen , like Luthien, passed beyong the circle of the world - it wasn't a question of her speeding off to Mandos - once she died, that was the end - hence the bitterness of her parting from her father.

(And someone mentioned Miriel - an Elf who TRIED to die (one of the first 'fallings' of the Elves) - her spirit would have passed into Mandos' keeping because as an Elf, she couldn't truly die in the mortal sense of the word...)

Phew, I think I've gone on a bit here!! :snooze:
Thanks for your attention!

[Mirkgirl]

Originally posted by Lalaith
In dying, Arwen , like Luthien, passed beyong the circle of the world - it wasn't a question of her speeding off to Mandos - once she died, that was the end - hence the bitterness of her parting from her father.
First, good summary :thumbs: but I'm not quite sure what you mean here... and if you mean what I think you do it contrsdicts your previous statement:
Originally posted by Lalaith
Luthien was the only Elf who truly became mortal and in dying, passed beyond the circles of the world.
in one word, could you please explain what exactly do you mean about Arwen?

[Lalaith]

Ah, I see what you mean!
I think what I meant was that, until Arwen, Luthien was the only Elf to have died in the mortal sense of the word. ie - she didn't pass to the halls of Mandos, she passed beyond the circles of the world.
Then Arwen comes along and chooses the exact same fate - Elrond is so upset because he knows that his daughters choice to die as a mortal will mean that he stands no chance of ever seeing her again... She too will 'depart whither the Elves know not' (silmarillion) It's not like she is choosing, like Miriel, to give up the ghost and head to Mandos...


ANd if that's any clearer, I'll be amazed!!!

[Mirkgirl]

Ah now I see what you mean, thanks