Gandalf dies

[Mathew6]

HA!! here i am from the far reaches of the dwarves kindoms in a long search but i have finally returned,anyway my dwarves freinds all asked me the same question,does gandalf the grey die? i insist in telling them he really Does die for i saw it in the appendix but all boubt me i repeat and repeat but its always thew same, he Doeset die.What do you think?

[A! Elbereth]

Haven't you read the books?

[Mathew6]

ya course
, in fact i just finished reading em fr the 2nd time but i always tell em he dies but my freinds who didnt read it or did say he dosent die but he just gets really hurt

[A! Elbereth]

oh and they don't believe you or something? lol sorry I just don't understand

[Tar-Ancalimë]

tell em to believe you...
From Chapter 5 The White Rider
Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
- Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.

Appendix B
THE TALE OF YEARS
January 25: He [Gandalf] casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
how much clearer can anyone be?

[Catz]

Tars right......he "dies" as mortals would see it........however he isnt quite mortal so the same rules dont apply and he gets sent back to finish his appointed task...
lol stick to your guns Matt lol
:catz:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Catz
Tars right......he "dies" as mortals would see it........however he isnt quite mortal so the same rules dont apply and he gets sent back to finish his appointed task...
lol stick to your guns Matt lol
:catz: Actually Catz, he died and actually left (for a reason never explained adequately by Tolkien) the confines of Ea (which shouldn't be able to happen). But it clearly states as quoted by Tar-Ancalimeand I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.Wandering out of the realm of time means he was gone from the whole of Ea and only Eru could have brought him forth and only Eru could have sent him back. It was Eru and not the "Powers" of Middle-earth that intervened. Only Eru can operate on both sides of the equation.from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien,156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)
[An answer to further comments on The Lord of the Rings.]
4 November 1954
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.This quote clearly means that the Valar didn't send him back. Tolkien uses the word Authority with a capital A. Eru took up the plan and enlarged it. Eru sent Gandalf back in an enhanced form to aid the Peoples of MIddle-earth to overthrow the evil yoke of Sauron.

At least that's the way I see it, but I could be wrong. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

wait, hold on... i guess i missed something, but Originally posted by Grond
he died and actually left (for a reason never explained adequately by Tolkien) the confines of Ea (which shouldn't be able to happen). why shouldnt it be allowed to happen? is this a mistake or what...?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
wait, hold on... i guess i missed something, but why shouldnt it be allowed to happen? is this a mistake or what...? Gandalf (as a Maia) should have been bound to Ea and not allowed to depart until it ended (according to the published Silmarillion). The mystery of Gandalf (in spirit) being allowed to leave the realm of Ea is unexplained and never repeated (so far as I know). He should have gone to where all the other good Maia go when their Earthly forms were broken, somewhere in the realm of Manwe and Mandos. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ah i think i knew that... i was just a little confused as to whether Gandalf actually went to a different place than the other Maiar... but i suppose... he did?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
ah i think i knew that... i was just a little confused as to whether Gandalf actually went to a different place than the other Maiar... but i suppose... he did? I guess I haven't explained myself very well. First off, I am expressing an educated opinion here and not a fact. The reason for me forming this opinion is Tolkien's description of Gandalf "straying out of thought and time". Tolkien (IMHO) made it clear that time began with the creation of Ea. The Ainur who descended into Ea, became bound into the TIME and THOUGHT of that existence until it exists no more. This line of thought is pervasive through the published Silmarillion and amplified by the Letters and HoMe.

In order for Gandalf to have wondered out of "thought and time" and for his plan to have been taken up by a higher "Authority", he had to have left the realm of Ea. This is an unprecedented occurence since Gandalf (even when killed) should have reverted to his Maia spiritual raimant and returned (weakened) to Mandos and Manwe. It doesn't say that he didn't return to Mandos but the author clearly states that Mandos and Manwe (Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time) were not the authority that revivied and elevated Gandalf... this was done by Eru (the ultimate Authority). :)

If others have a different opinion, I would love to hear it. Grond studies hard but isn't always right. :grin:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

no you express yourself fine. It's just me... :grin:

it doenst matter if its a fact or not, your posts are always very helpful :)

[Catz]

well i think we have to keep in mind that its all opinion.....the only person who knows for sure is JRR and hes dead. And often times even he didnt know......the problem with a mythos like LOTR is that it has so many points of consistancy that we tend to expect it to be internally consistant, often forgetting that it is the work of one man, and thus cannot be totally consistant at all times.
There is also the temptation to regard HOME and UT as canon, which by their very nature, they cannot be...what they are is a wonderful resource of addtional material that can aid in shedding light on the reasoning behind the actual canonical material...but also often obsure the same things lol
i would not have taken the words you mention Grond, as meaning that Gandalf left Arda entirely, merely that his body was destroyed, but that he was, unusually, sent back immediately as he had unfinished business...tho i do agree that the inference is that a higer authority was involved.
but this is, as i say, my opinion only
:catz:

[Grond]

Catz, exactly why are you bringing HoMe into this conversation? Everything I've quoted is from the mouth of J. R. R. T. and not from Morgoth's Ring or any other HoMe sources. My quotes are from The Letter's of J. R. R. Tolkien and are definitive.

"but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. That can only refer to Eru."Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'." That unequivocably states that it was the action of Eru and refers directly back to the fact that the phrase "thought and time " is directly relative to the world of Ea.

When you take those two "direct quotes" from the author. His meaning is clear because he states it clearly. There is also the temptation to regard HOME and UT as canon, which by their very nature, they cannot be...what they are is a wonderful resource of addtional material that can aid in shedding light on the reasoning behind the actual canonical material...but also often obsure the same things I would be interested to hear what you deem canonical material, for the Silmarillion was published after JRRT's death and has no more canonical value that does Morgoth's Ring or any of the other "later" revisions he made to the Histories of Middle-earth. In fact, The Silmarillion presented in Morgoth's Ring represents his most recent writings (from the late 50's and early 60's) on the subject and should be taken with much greater weight than say the Silmarillion proper as published. The reason CT presented the published Silmarillion is that it is the text which maintains the most "consistency" with the world as written in LotR. But.... this too is an opinion.... Christopher Tolkien's opinion.

And I have gotten off topic. It is clear from J. R. R. Tolkien's own mouth in the Letters that Gandalf left the realm of Ea. Read what he says again. The meaning is clear.

[Bess the Bard]

Grond, thank you for highlighting text from Tolkien I have read but never before considered in the way you presented it. It makes Gandalf's "rebirth" much more intriguing if he passed out of the Circles of the World and was sent back directly by Eru. It makes comments by Gandalf about other forces at work in Frodo's having the Ring more meaningful. Gandalf, in his wisdom, may have been more attuned to Eru's spirit working in Middle Earth, and thus been judged worthy to be treated so extraordinarily. The last part is just speculation, of course. But it's lots of fun to do!

Bess

[Grond]

Originally posted by Bess the Bard
Grond, thank you for highlighting text from Tolkien I have read but never before considered in the way you presented it. It makes Gandalf's "rebirth" much more intriguing if he passed out of the Circles of the World and was sent back directly by Eru. It makes comments by Gandalf about other forces at work in Frodo's having the Ring more meaningful. Gandalf, in his wisdom, may have been more attuned to Eru's spirit working in Middle Earth, and thus been judged worthy to be treated so extraordinarily. The last part is just speculation, of course. But it's lots of fun to do!

Bess Thank you for your kind comments. I am wondering what part of the post you consider "just speculation"? The published Silmarillion is acknowledged by it's editor to be only "his" (meaning CT's) speculation as to what his father would have wanted published. CT also makes it unequivocably clear that his father was trying to bring more cohesion of "real world" rules and laws when he was revising the Sil in the late 50's and early 60's. The author was too old and the task simply too daunting for him to complete it.

I, personally, love the published Sil's viewpoint of Middle-earth the best... but don't give it any more credence than any of the 4, 5 or even 6 other versions of the Sil that the author wrote, simply because the author never got his "Mythical History" into an order for publishing.

The only 'canon' in Tolkien's writings are "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien." Even the Appendices of the LotR can't be viewed as canon because they have been revised by CT in later years.

[Bess the Bard]

The speculation I was referring to was mine--that Gandalf was judged worthy by Eru to be sent back as he was (as opposed to simply being a handy tool for Eru)--but I cannot know Eru's thoughts. :)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Bess the Bard
The speculation I was referring to was mine--that Gandalf was judged worthy by Eru to be sent back as he was (as opposed to simply being a handy tool for Eru)--but I cannot know Eru's thoughts. :) LOL! Don't I have egg on my face?:blush:

I understand what you are saying but your interpretation makes the most sense as well. Gandalf was worthy and Tolkien goes into much more detail on these issues in his letters.

Thanks again for your kind words. :)

[Catz]

Grond i dont believe i ever said that you had quoted HoME.......if i did then i apologise as its self evident that you did not.........my point was merely that when we are getting into the background motivations and the whys and wherefores of the stories we are perforce specuating on the authors intent...since indeed the only canonical works in the LOTR universe are the Hobbit and LOTR excluding the appendices and of course the letters. Everything else is the "opinion" of the author....in most cases CT......certainly utilsing his fathers manuscripts, but with a great deal of "editing"
I stand by what i said, in that it is my opinion...........yours differs and thats fine....well never know who is right will we?:cool:
:catz:

[Grond]

Hence my confusion Catz. All of my quotes were directly from the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. I'm now assuming that you are simply interpreting what he's said differently than do I. If that is the case, we simply differ over what we believe the author is saying.

If that is the case, as you stand by your opinion, I stand by mine. The author's words are clear to me as I've quoted them 'ad nauseum'.

OK, I'll shut up now. pfbbt :blush:

[Mathew6]

well i knew gandalf dies...but none of my freinds believed me but now they do...lol

[dwarflord]

rules dont apply and he gets sent back to finish his appointed task...


ROFL

Can u just picture it.... gandalf spirit turns up in the halls of the valar in the undying lands....to be greeted by a round of....

HEY YOU! slacker...you cant come in here ! YOur not finished your appointed task yet!! Get back to middle earth and do a proper job....go on hop it!.....*mumbles* bah these wizards....nowt but trouble.....

[Windwater Elf]

Heh! Only Eru has got the power to make exceptions to the norm.

[Tar-Palantir]

WOW! I had completley forgotten that this thread was about if Gandalf actually died.
We trailed off a bit here, didn't we?

[Lord of the Nazgul]

This is my point of the issue. Since Gandalf is one of the Istari, along with Saruman, Radagast, Pollando, and Alatar, he's only a spirit meaning he can't die, but the body he is in can. When he fell with the Balrog and the body was no more he was sent back to Illuvatar, but since his "task" was incomplete he was given a new body like the old and was sent back to Middle-earth until he was done. That is why his mind was a little hazy about being Gandalf the Grey. He then became the White Istari because Saruman had been corrupted.

[Tar-Palantir]

Yes, the Authority sent him back, not the Lords of the West. Some people do not seem to get this.