What is the fate of Men when they die?

[Bess the Bard]

I thought maybe I would throw out for discussion something that I have been thinking about lately. If there are answers for this in sources I haven't come across, let me know. Ok, here goes.

We have a fairly clear idea from the Silmarillion and other essays like Morgoth's Ring what happens to Elves when they die and go to the Halls of Mandos. We have those details (other than the fact that Tolkien gave them to us) because the Sil and other "histories" were written from the Elves' point of view. The theory always was that we did not know what happened to Men (and Hobbits) after they die because Iluvatar had not revealed this to the Elves or the Valar.

But it was not revealed to Men, either. The highest Men, of Numenor and, later Gondor, knew of Iluvatar and the Valar. But everything that happened after death was a big question mark. In Middle Earth, Tolkien provided no theology for humans as we know it in our world. There seems to be a shared sense of what is good amongst Men from Gondor and Rohan and the Hobbits but where did that come from?

And humans in Middle Earth had no promise of an eternal reward for being good or punishment for being bad. What sort of "judgement" if any, awaited them beyond the circles of the world was completely unknown. If a human served the Dark Lord, what happened to them when they died? I don't know of anyplace that Tolkien explains that. And why didn't humans in Middle Earth invent stories or myths that tried to explain what happened after death? It's a primal human drive, as Tolkien well knew.

I accept that the Elves didn't know what happened to the humans after death. But it's hard for me to accept that the humans didn't try to find out or they didn't at least "invent" a theory for it. It seems to me that Tolkien neglected to fill in a very important part of the picture, or at least explain why it was left blank in an internally consistant way.

Comments? Opinions? Political Statements? :P

[Koba]

Greetings.

Tolkien was careful not to turn his mythology too much like a mockery of Christianity. I think it was HoME X where he speculated that the only way to defeat Melkor was for Eru to come to middle-earth as an incarnate, which would have been an obvious allegory of Jesus.

Maybe for that reason he didn´t go further into the afterlife of men. It´s a mystery, and we have to settle for that.

[Fatty]

Indeed, beyond the circles of the world, whos fate only Eru knows. I think Catz is right, Tolkien would not step too far into the world of real belief...

[Catz]

heheh i guess that means im getting to him hunh? lol roflmao....if hes seeing catz everywhere? lol
but i actually do agree....i think Tolkien deliberately avoided mentioning the religious beliefs of the men in his story, tho he illustrated their values in their actions, and what they regarded as honourable behaviour.....attributes that would not be out of place in descriptions of good Christian behaviour...and i get the impression that they were Christian in all but name, and im tempted to think that thats the impression Tolkien assumed readers would have......back when the book was first published, being a non Christian was far more unusual than it is today...but thats strictly opinion
:catz:

[Bess the Bard]

I agree that Tolkien did not want to presume to create an analog or coppy of the Christian view of life after death. I think what was curious to me is that the humans of Middle Earth evinced so little curiosity that they didn't try to find the answers for themselves.

If I were try to answer my own question within the context of Tolkien's world, I might give 2 possible theories. One, the "good" humans simply had enormous faith in Eru, that their fate beyond the circles of the world were in His hands and if that fate was unknown then it was the wisdom of Eru that it be so. "Bad" humans on the other hand, were not satisfied with that, were not faithful and so fell into league with Morgoth or Sauron who offered more immediate solutions to life's problems. (i.e. worship me and have the power to dominate your neighbors and control your destiny, so far as I permit it.)

The second possibility is akin to the first argument and ties in with Tolkien's stated themes in LOTR of "death and deathlessness". Good humans were faithful and accepted that their fate beyond death was unknown and unknowable. Bad humans sought to know the unknowable or at least have power over their ultimate fate. This is demonstrated in the fate of the people of Numenore.

The "Faithful" accepted humans' special fate under Eru and did not seek to sieze immortality by invading Valinor. The "Unfaithful" could not accept not their unknown fate, started "death cults", tried to literally conquer death and were destroyed for their sins. Of course, this failing began to happen in Gondor, too. Where the houses of the dead were larger and more grand than the houses of the living.

I don't know if I am making any sense here. Tolkien seems to disapprove the human drive to "know" what happens to the soul after death and to invent explanations where (naturally) no solid answers are to be found. He demands, I think, far more courage and faith from his "faithful" humans, than the Christian God had demanded. By comparison to Eru, God made it pretty easy on us.

[Aragorn Isildur]

I may be wrong on this but didnt Beren go to the Halls of Mandos before he was sent back to ME? I have the feeling im totally wrong there...*books a week off work to re-read all his books ;)*

Aragorn:king:

[Ithielnor]

yes you're right! here it is -
Quenta Silmarillion, chap. XIX, second to last page,
For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell on the dim shores of the outer sea, whence men that die set out never to return.

next page
Therefore he [Mandos] summoned Beren.....but Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting.
so it would seem that the spirits of men rest awhile in the halls of Mandos before leaving the earth.

[Iarfirithwen]

Personally I've never felt the need to assume either Men or Hobbits held a particular belief system. Indeed those that have a desire "to do good" or behave honourably in Middle-earth could fall within many of todays systems (including no religious belief - one can behave morally and adhere to a system of ethics without the thought of punishment as a reinforcer). However, for those that knew of the Valar they may have had a concept of something happening/or not, after death etc but who knows? Personally, I like the ambiguity.

[Lady Melody]

To shorten all this debate, I think that the correct way to express it would be;

Only The Iluvatar Knows...

[Mirkgirl]

Hehe Chibi you just proposed to close the entire section. :o

As catz said the people in ME are Christians in everything but name. I think Tolkien wanted to imply that the Christian moral is something so universal and true that it doesn't need a priest to preach or a hell to threaten, as Iarfirithwen said. It's something that naturally comes when a society is formed.

Not telling us what happens to men after they die is one of the smartes "moves" Tolkien did IMO. I think the roots of this decision are in his pure human "fear" to write about this. The other is his wish not to create parallels with any religion. He obviously didn't want to create heaven&hell christian model and everything else would have been a kind of heresy. And besides this mystery served very well as the special thing about men, so Tolkien had no reason to delve into that matter...

and last but not least such mystery always captures the reader (-;

[Miruvor]

the people in ME are Christians in everything but name.
Wouldn't 'Christ'ian necessarily mean emulation or follower of Christ?
If this 'history' of ME predates Christ's birth, or is in some alternate universe from ours, then there is no possible way it could relate to or be called Christian. And Tolkien did an excellent job of not making any overt references to such, and made plenty of references to dispell such parallels.
(Haven't read the Sil, except for 1st few chapters, which did feel very 'Biblish', but better - music of the spheres, kind of thing - too bad Tolkien wasn't born at the right time to help write the bible.)
Maybe it's the other way around and Christians are what Tolkien's ME religion is. - I.E. that universal set of beliefs of right and wrong and morality, that exists irrespective of Christ's existence.

I believe we know where one set of 'Dead' went. They hung out in the paths of the dead for quite a long time, so we could presume that if a person dies with unfinished business, their spirits hang around on earth.

[Lady Melody]

I thought all men ended in the Hall of Mandos for a while, until they 'dissapear'.

[Mirkgirl]

Nope, at least no one tell us they do What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur. Beren waited for Luthien in the Halls of Mandos For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell

That one set of dead... they're an exception indeed but they say a lot about Tolkiens understanding about hauting spirits.

About the Christians... I think (but that's strictly my opinion) that Tolkien believed that a Christian is not a follower of Christ, but a human being which follows the morals of Christianity... and he created a world where the Christian morality settles without the need of a God, promises for heaven and threats with hell.

(If I don't make sense it's because of sleep deprivation *yawn*)

[Windwater Elf]

I recall reading in one of Tolkien's letters in The Letters Of J.R.R. Tolkien that he did not want Lord Of The Rings to be an allegory of Christianity or something like that (my book is not with me at the moment). Therefore, there is no direct mention of God. But I find that inevitably Tolkien's Catholic faith did have some influence in Lord Of The Rings although he did not mention what is the fate of the race of Men after their death. It is good that he left it a mystery. If he had written about it, I guess it would be more akin to the concept of Christianity.