Changes from the book and the plot so far...

[Fatty]

Well I wrote up this half serious page based on some stuff in the movie guide books, the trailers, interviews and general rumours etc.

Have a look if you like:
http://warofthering.net/specialnewspages/themoviebooks.shtml

What do you think?

Some of it is definetly correct, other bits are well....guess work.

A word of warning, DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO AVOID SPOILERS!!!

Fatty

[Keverzwijn]

I proudly announce that I have succeeded in not reading this in a pathetic attempt to stay spoilerfree. I will probaly read it within a week cuz it's so hard to resist and I just can't avoid it.

[A! Elbereth]

This is very very interesting..... What about Sam saying "The Ring will not save Gondor"

Wasn't that Frodo's line???

And Frodo goes mad!!! I must see how Elijah does this...

[Kazren]

I must honestly say, though I am a devoted reader of the books, and I've read the Trilogy multiple times, it doesn't bother me if they have to change it for a more dramatic movie. That's not only PJ's right, it's his job, to make it entertaining for everyone, not just those of us who have practiaclly memorized the books.

Go for it, Peter! :)

[Legolas]

I think PJ has done a damn good job so far. The movies can follow the books exactly for only so long, otherwise you'd have a 9-hr. movie that wouldn't flow together at all. Unless, of course, you used a narrator the entire time......which would just get annoying.

[Miruvor]

That is very scary if they don't show Saruman's staff broken and the palantir thrown. That needs to happen before Saruman's fateful fall. (Will Pippin ever get to look into the palantir?)
Farimir's character change is a slap in the face to me. The scene in the book where Sam spills the beans and Farimir tells them they needn't have feared and could trust him was one of my very favorites parts..

[Sirhiniel]

I know there is and has to be changes in the movie, and I don't mind a lot of them I'm so far hearing about. The only one thing that I don't really like if it's true is Faramir and the taking the ring to Minas Tirith thing, simply because that's not his character at all and he's supposed to be different than his brother. However, I suppose I'll see the movie first before I make any judgement there... and anyway I know whatever the case the movie is going to be awesome and the wait is driving me maddd!!!!

And like A! Elbereth said, as far as I remember "The Ring will not save Gondor" was indeed Frodo's line not Sam's... ?

Can't wait to see Helms Deep, that looks absolutely insane!

[Miruvor]

But I guess it wouldn't look credible for Frodo to say the line ....! ! ! IF HE's ACTING NUTSO! ! ! (Who's bright idea was THAT?)
The only time he went nuts was in Mordor after hiking a long time in the fumes and futility.

[Quickbeam15]

Very well done!!

ENTS!!

[Algamesh]

Alright, I am not happy with this whole Faramir deal! He is probably my favorite supporting character in the whole freakin' saga and they want to make him WEAK-WILLED ?!?!?

Faramir was written into the story to showcase the "worth" of Men and I think that this deviation from the original is blasphemous!

I have been happy with many things thus far and I believe that NewLine and PJ have done a wonderful job. But, I do not see any reason to do this to Faramir!

There's my rant! verymad pfbbt verymad

[Simplehobbit]

I have to agree with Algamesh! I love the character of Faramir and will be sadly disappointed if they re-write his part! But I do think you've done a great job of "forseeing" what may happen. But, no matter how they change...the books will always be my first love---and Faramir my favorite character!;)

[Nessa]

While I admire PJ and the rest of them for a comedable job on something no one else would touch, I am sure I will still be at least a touch dissapointed in some of the changes made.

First off, the rumors of Elrond and the Rivendell elves going to Lorien and an elvish company at Helm's Deep. I don't exactly love it, but I can live with it. We all have our priorities, and the happenings of the elves are not first on my list. ;)

Then there's the apparent violation of Faramir's charactor! This is more upsetting. I greatly respect book Faramir, and I think another "I will take the ring, oh wait, no I won't" would be pretty dissapointing. I understand that all this was probably done to beef up Frodo and Sam's screen time (which I am all for, believe me), I don't want it to compromise Faramir's upstanding personality.

Then there's all this sewer talk. Ick. Thats all I have to say on the subject.

Of course, all the worry could be over nothing.

Great job, Fatty! I don't know where you find the time. ;)

(Welcome simplehobbit! :wave: )

((I apologize for not being able to spell the word "charactor."))

[Archer of Lorien]

I for one am happy with the inclusion of (Lorien?) elves being at Helm's Deep. This way, the audience will feel saddened by the death of those Elves brave enough to aid them at Helm's Deep. Otherwise, the audience will feel resentment towards Elves for abandoning the free peoples of Middle Earth.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

restentment is really very not a part of TOlkiens work. this business of legolas feeling resent is far too out of character to make me happy. Angry is more the term. sorry for attacking your post and all but i strongly disagree. the movie should stay true to tolkien's themes and the parting of elves and growing of men is a huge theme of his.

i hate the changes to faramir. if they are true pj will have seriously alienated this fan of his. i strongly agree with algamesh and all i have to say is it better be just a rumor.

sewers. ick. that sums it up perfectly, nessa.

arg! they are ruining tolkien's work and i bet he will come from his grave and haunt them if these rumors indeed are true.

oh, and liv? you dont even want to get me started on her inclusion in the moive...

[Nessa]

I meant to mention Miz Tyler. ;)

I really don't hate her. I think she did a fine job, personally. Say what you want about her, but she takes a lot of aggresion which I think is really just about her being so present.

Personally I don't mind her being involved, as long as her part doesn't overstep what she's supposed to do. I think a little sad romance will go well with the TTT atmosphere.

*prepares for the Liv-hating Army to storm her post* ;)

[Wilwarin]

I also wholy agree with Algamesh! My cheeks were flaming the very second I heard about the the whole Faramir deal! verymad

Messing with the plot line is one thing (I could probable live with the whole Aragorn/Brego thing, maybe even the sewers part........maybe) But not the changing of a character's character! verymad I really like Faramir! PJ, what have you done!?!?!

[Quickbeam15]

What happened to Farimir?

[Bonos-Girl]

he's turned evil....ok thats probably a bit of an overstatement...but there are loadsa pics of him...one where he's with frodo an frodo's shirts all ripped and...and...and...mecry

[Tar-Ancalimë]

mecry! that's whats happened to Faramir.

well a bit more serious answer to your question... rumor has it he will try to take the ring to Gondor and "complete Boromir's quest" pfbbt

[Bonos-Girl]

thats kinda what i was saying when i burst into mecry....

[Sauron]

Like someone said, Faramir was put in the books to do what Boromir couldn't, PJ has done a good job so far with Fellowship, To tell the truth, I'll be happy as long as we don't get a Jar Jar Gollum :gaga:

[Iarfirithwen]

I'll have to agree that the stories that I hear about Faramir are the most disturbing. Faramir is neither a pale shadow of Boromir nor his fathers lap dog. While Boromir might be the better captain/warrior, Faramir is wiser. He represents hope for the future, hope in man. He realises what the ring is and what must be done with it. If Faramir does the whole "this has to go back to daddy" routine that I'm hearing about I'm going to be verymad. Other changes, additions (i.e., Elrond & Galadriel in Lothlorien for TTT etc), moves (i.e., sheelob to ROTK) or cuts (i.e., good ol Tom Bombadil) don't really worry me all. Its an adaptation of a beautiful and layered peice of art that Tolkein created over a long period of time. BUT what they really need to do is stay true to the spirit of the books and most especially their characters. If you start having characters in the films behaving in opposition to their characterisations in the books (the source and the stories bible) then i will be very displeased to say the least :nono: if indeed, that is what happens.

Iarfirithwen
p.s. as I've mentioned elsewhere, the only other change that worries me would be if they let Arwen usurp some of Eowyn's role. i'm happy for Arwen to be there, they're exploring something not explicit in the books and it'll probably make for a better movie. But i've heard on another thread tht Arwen is meant to be at Helms Deep consoling the refugess in the Caves. I hope that the person reporting that got it wrong because that is Eowyn's role!!!! If Arwen isa confined to Rivendell, Lothlorien, and Aragorn's dreams, that'll be fine with me. But this is really one for Eowyn! she shouldn't be overshadowed by Arwen. if they do that it will be dissapointing.

[Lady Melody]

I'm disturbed by Faramir's change. He's supposed to be utterly different from Boromir, yeeesh... One unforgivable change!

[Treebeard]

The biggest spoiler so far has to be the GW The Two Towers game. If its anything like the fellowship, the film should end with a showdown with Saruman

[Treebeard]

Also GW haven't set a date for Shelob, looks like the third movie for her then.

[Iarfirithwen]

Does anyone know if Galadriel makes an appearance in the scenes following Gandalfs fight with the Balrog? Like we know she's in there, most likely as part of the Elves Council that Elrond calls, but does she make it into the scenes where Gandalf the White is recovering (ala the semi-nekid Gandalf photo ;) )

I think PJ confirmed in an interview that Shelob has been pushed back to ROTK(film) because there wouldn't be enough Frodo/Sam in ROTK(film) otherwise and also the various timelines aren't at the same place at the end of the TTT(book) etc.

[Ithielnor]

I think you all know what i'm goning to say~FARAMIR~verymad, I'll say it this way...

The Two Towers, part II, chap. V, The window of the west
Fear no more! I would not take this thing, even if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling into ruin and I alone could save her.....using the weapon of the Dark Lord

nuff said.

p.s. you do a great job fatty.:gofatty:

[Iarfirithwen]

Thanks for finding that Ithielnor! That sums it up pretty well. If Faramir tries to take it back to Minas T., AND its Frodo and Sam that convince him not to this could be the first that makes me unhappy with the films. Faramir should have the wisdom straight off and shouldn't need any convincing from anyone. That's such an important part of his character, of who he is. Its those kind of changes I worry about: such big changes to someones character. I don't care if they add stuff, cut stuff or move stuff between films (its an adaptation of a many layered and long book), but I do care if they make someone into someone they're not in the books. Grrrrrr

If that turns out to be true I'll be :verymad:

[Quickbeam15]

so will we see more ents?

[Ithielnor]

ok quickbeam, I read somwhere that sarumon watches the destroying of Isengard from his tower 'Orthanc'.(sorry, can't find the link right now, but i think it was on this site:)) This should be interesting to see, ofcourse it will all be cgi, but they look like they did a great job on all the rest of the cgi.(i.e. gollum, mumakil, and the few ent pics we've seen) Hope answers some of your questions.

[Reyes Lord]

I can understand why everyone is getting upset about the changes in Faramir, but I have to say that I believe the changes follow PJ's version of the books very well. If Aragorn was tempted by the ring when he was talking to Frodo at Amon Hem, why shouldn't Faramir? I mean, if Faramir is supposed to be so much like Aragorn, wouldn't it make sense that he was tempted?

As for being "stronger" and "better" than Boromir, wouldn't facing temptation, then turning it away prove that? That's why Boromir believed he had failed, because he couldn't let Frodo go. It's takes a stronger person to feel the pull of the ring and say "no, I'm not going to take it" then to be completely impervious.

Plus it makes the character more realistic to me. A person who is grieving over his brother's death shouldn't really be thinking too straight and it makes sense that he'd want to complete his brother's mission as a sort of tribute to him.

I'm not saying that PJ isn't changing Faramir's character. I'm just saying that I think the changes are for the better, at least for the movies. Faramir's temptation will add a nice dynamic to the character.

[Bonos-Girl]

thats one way of looking at it...and i suppose that would be the sensable idea but i still feel a bit put out that his charactre has changed so much!

[Tar-Ancalimë]

mmm i dont agree, they are tolkiens books, let tolkien dictate the character.... and the role...

[Iarfirithwen]

i think Aragorn felt the pull of the ring which was enough for him (given his self doubt over his ancestors etc) to pull back from it. I don't think it got to the point where it genuinely tempted him. I always thought Faramir was wise enough to know that this was something to stay away from. Like I don't want to be near it, I don't want the temptation, I know I have weaknesses etc

Although I do agree that being tempted by something and being able to pull away from it does show strength.I'm sure you're probably right that that's what they're trying to do. I just hope they do it well. Faramir is meant ot be wise.

[Kazren]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
mmm i dont agree, they are tolkiens books, let tolkien dictate the character.... and the role...
Well, Tar-Ancalimë, Tolkien did dictate the characters in the books and he had a lot of critiqueing from the Inklings, but books are not movies. Since the movies are an adaptation the screenwriters must do what it takes to get points across that are spelled out in long naratives in the book, but must come across more rapidly and clearly to those who haven't read it on the big screen.

So far, the writing team for the films have not disappointed me. I could have used a lot less of Saruman and his orcs, but that was also to get the evilness of what was going on across - how totally awful it was that Saruman betrayed the Free People out of his own greed for power. And of course he doesn't even realize he's being manipulated by the ultimate evil, Sauron.

[Darth Saruman]

i think now that one movie has been put out that they have to continue with the same themes they've brought into it.

obviously Tolkein should always be right, but as soon as you change something, you might as well change a bunch of things to make it all symmetrical and what have you

did that make any sense?

[Elfdream]

Yes, it makes sense.

I think if PJ clearly shows the internal struggle Faramir has concerning the ring he might be able to pull it off. Faramir knows duty and honor and love and all that says he should take the ring to Gondor, but deep down in his gut he has this feeling that in this case, doing what appears outwardly to be the 'right' thing' would really be a big mistake. Kind of like Huck Finn deliberating on whether or not to turn slave Jim in to the authorities. According to the law at the time, it was the right thing to do. Inside Huck Finn though, it wasn't. If Pj can clearly demonstrate that, I think I can live with it..

Hope that made sense!

If he turns Faramir into some weak willed whiny Casper milktoast...Pj will never hear the end of that!

This was my first 'real' post...about my my fave character outside the Fellowship...

elfdream

[Ithielnor]

hmm.... I can't agree with that, Faramir had strong character, he recognised the danger from the ring, frodo saw this strangth and almost told him the secret. He was wise enough to turn the conversation from Isildur's bane when saw that there was a danger there
'I pressed you hard at first about Isildur's Bane. Forgive me! It was unwise in such an hour and place......But even as I spoke with you, I drew near the mark, and so deliberately shot wider. For you must know that much is still preserved of ancient lore among the Rulers of the city that is not spread abroad.'
He even recognised and revered the power of Galadriel, whom few mortal men saw or wished to see. Faramir was also more learned in the lore of Gondor than Boromir, for he had learned from Gandalf whenever he got a chance
'He [Gandalf] got leave of Denethor, how I do not know, to look at the secrets of our treasury, and I learned a little of him, when ever he would teach (and that was seldom).'
There were also many books in Gondor written about the previous war with Souron. Faramir feared to decide incorrectly, but sam's slip showed him the only way was to let them go on their journey.
'Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I where such a man as to desire this thing..... still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them.'
'But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are som perils from which a man must flee.'
Nor did Faramir delight in war as did Boromir
'....I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the men of Númenor; and I sould have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her wisdom.'
Sorry to take so much of your time.


p.s. all of the above quotes are taken from The Two Towers, part II, chap. V, The Window of the West..
pp.s. welcome to WOTR.net elfdream, please don't take this personaly.:)

[Elfdream]

Oh I don't. I understand where you are coming from and I agree that book Faramir is a clearly defined individual and I and everyone else apparently would prefer for PJ to write him that way. I was speaking to the idea of how PJ might rewrite him...not as I see him in the book. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

For me personally, if PJ chooses to rewrite the character, the thing I could most easily live with ....would be to ues the character to show that you can't always use the reason (excuse) "I was just obeying orders."

If that makes no sense just tell me...I'll be happy to expound some more. I like talking about Faramir!

elfdream

[Ithielnor]

I understand perfectly elfdream.

I get ticked when I see things which suggest Faramir as weak willed Boromir clone, JRRT made it clear that he was different than Boromir in that he understood fate/chance/ruling of Eru, much better............ no, I won't go into another long winded Faramir character spate.

p.s. I'm not saying Boromir was weak willed, I rather liked Boromir.

[Miruvor]

eek! And now it's confirmed by the LO review. That's sick to ruin the only Man in the trilogy with perfect integrity. PJ you bum.
But I can kind of see his reasoning:
1. Keeps Farimir's part in the movie longer instead of the hobbits wasting several chapters traipsing thru Ithilien alone - that was a bit of a drag.
2. It gives an EXPLICIT way to show the audience that Sauron thinks the ring is on it's way to Gondor, instead of his just speculating about it, as in the book. That way, Sauron's attack on Gondor in ROTK will make more sense to non-book readers. Keeps Gandalf from having to explain everything about the thought process of Sauron.