Mount Doom - Book

[A! Elbereth]

Dont you think that when Frodo and Sam are in Mount Doom and Frodo looses his finger it all happens a little fast? I mean... they go up the mountain.. Frodo goes crazy for a moment...and when Gollum falls they sit outside and Gandalf saves them on whats his face. I was surpirsed at how fast it went and had to read it over. I think Tolkien could have added a little more to that part of the book becuase we only read the entire 2 books and 75% of the 3rd one just to read that part...its what the whole story is about and it goes by like that! *snaps* What do you think? Do you think it will go by that fast in the movie?

[Pil]

I totally agree. I got sooo annoyed with that part of the ending (but the scouring made up for it). I instantly had to read it again because i thought i had missed something. It wos like, "ooo, sam's been knocked out...and suddenly they're on the back of a eagle!" I HOPE it won't be so fast in the film. They should make a big thing bout the little relieved talk sam and frodo have before they are rescued; when they think they are going to die, but are happy to be free of the ring. :(

[Catz]

well....at the risk of being fish slapped.....the fact is that much as i love his books, in the classical sense, JRR was not the best writer in the world, and this is a common fault with beginners at writing....they work up a huge story and build up to a climax....only to rush it when they get there, cos theyre not quite sure what to do next......
:elfeek: put down that trout!!!!
:catz:

[PrinceImrahil]

I actually have to agree with catz (don't slap me plz). Tolkien is really not the greatest writer out there. Don't get me wrong, LOTR and Company are my favorite books and have been sine I was six. But don't you ever question why LOTR is never studied in High School classes? Its beause his writing really isn't "Great."

I think we an trust PJ for the film version. FOTR makes TTT and ROTK look very promising.

[A! Elbereth]

Whoa you guys have the wrong Idea! I am not insulting his work or saying it needs improvement.... but to tell you the truth I have never thought he wasnt a high quality writer.. i never knew that he wasnt...well ( I cant think of a word to use..You know what I MEAN!) To me Tolkien is one of the greatest writers. No one could have written a story better. i was just seeing if anyone noticed.
Before I read Tolkien i hated reading i mean i hated it becuase i never could find a story I liked. I think I should stop talking now :) but now you know ;)

[A! Elbereth]

ok one more thing... why isnt he one of the greatest writers in the world? His use of words is extraordinary! And he desribes things so well! I could only wish I could write so well... (Pil has the stuff) those other "award winning books" dont have that... and I've read alot... not liking any but the short and sweet book 'The Giver'

[Bonos-Girl]

I think it's really stupid how for our KS3 sats we had to study shakespear, i mean it's probably really good...if you can understand it. all the way through the course I was wondering how there could only be 1 good writer in the world and how that 1 writer could be crap. It just doesn't make sense at all....

[A! Elbereth]

yes.... shakespeare ...is the worst writer i could have ever known about in my entire life on earth. And its a crime to make us read his crappy, and disgusting old age writing. His storys are stupid and not to the point! I had to read 12th night.. never have i been more bored with a book :) lol lol

[Catz]

whoa...sorry kiddos but accessible does not nessesarily mean better.......nor does old neccesarily mean bad......some things you have to work for......without Shakespeare there wouldnt be any modern writers.....dont allow the bit of effort you have to put in to understanding to blind you to excellence....quite aside from the masterful use of language, and control of the theatric experience that Shakespeare shows, there is the beauty of the stories......without him LOTR woudnt exist....certainly not in the form it does, as parts of it were in direct reaction to Shakespeare....
And as to why JRR isnt the best writer....well.....his transitions are clumsy.....his dialogue can be stilted....he has a tendency to not integrate his influences or his constant rewrites smoothly....he gets carried away with parts that he likes and skims over other bits that he has less interest in, to the detriment of the narrative..... and he cant write female roles......
all that is technical, nuts and bolts stuff.......but in spite of this, and this really does show the power of JRR's story, LOTR is still a compelling piece of fiction, shortcomings and all......i love it, after all
:catz:

[Mirkgirl]

I actually prefer the movie to be far from the book as I have the images in my head and they'll never go and it'll be more interesting to see something different (but I'll still hate PJ for this lol)

And catz Tolien was not a film scrip writer I agree, but you'll still be slapped *runs after catz with a big trout*

In school we study the books that talk for the period they are written for (at least it's so here). And if we study LotR in school there just would never be enough time to. (*keeps repeating, keeps repeating, dang I realy believe in it ):* )

[Catz]

nooooooo not the......TROUT!!!!!
:elfeek: :elfeek: :elfeek: :o :o :elfeek: :elfeek: :elfeek:
:catz:

[Bonos-Girl]

I think that the problem with shakespeare is:
a)no-one understands the language and
b)all the jokes just aren't funny anymore, they're centuries old for gods sake!!!!!

[Catz]

well I understand the language and no.....im not that old!!!:o lol ....it just takes a little effort...and some of his jokes are absolutely filthy.....and funny..... jokes and humor are about the human condition....and humans havent changed that much....;) :grin:
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Catz you almost sound like you could be a die-hard shakespeare fan. lol But me, I prefer to leave the reading of Shakespeare to someone like you. You obviously could understand it better than I could... becuase i went crazy trying to figure out what his long-winded sentences 'meant to me.' (my teacher made us do worksheets)

[Catz]

I am.....and proud of it!!!lol lol
i just think a lot of the time people make Shakespeare much harder for themselves by psyching themselves out....expecting it to be dry and hard, so therefore it is....whereas it really isnt that tough to follow and the stories are wonderful......as relevant today as they were then......look at Othello.......have racism, infidelity and jealousy disappeared?....no, theyre still a part of the human condition....still as current now, as then.....
And i am totally off topic here.....soooooo back to Mt Doom.....
yeah......i just dont think that JRR had thought ahead to his climactic moment....so that when he got there, all he could do was "chuck it in" so to speak lol lol
:catz:

[Pil]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOK PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :elfeek:

HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU COMPARE SHAKESPEARE TO TOLKEIN OR EVEN MENTION THE TWO OF THEM TOGETHER. I MEAN, SHAKESPEARE WROTE PLAYS AND TOLKEIN WROTE AN AMAZING BOOK! I don't hate shakespeare, but i like Tolkein a whole lot more and i think it is just out if order to have a go at his writing.

PLUS!!! Tolkein was sooooooooo original that i reckon he didn't take any influence (not on purpose anyway) from shakespeare.

Soz! :embarras:

P.S. I thought that the Mount Doom sequence wasn't the best in the book but still well written. :knight:

[Catz]

sorry Pil.....but the whole idea of the Ents came from Shakespeare...and as for influences, just read any book on european mythology to see where Tolkien came up with his ideas....there is NO SUCH THING as an "original" idea....all things grow from that which came before.....what Tolkien did tho, was put a whole mythos together.....which was new in that he approached it with the eye and heart of a scholar....im not knocking the Professor, but really.......his plot structure aint that hot.....as i said before, his transitions are clumsy....but that just means that to have captured the hearts of so many, that his story must be that much more powerful....like any mythology it resonates on a very deep level.....at the archetypal level of conciousness.....:)
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

I am appauled by your comments to Tolkein! And I beg to differ. I think that you are half right with the original Idea thing... but not everything he wrote was from past stories! Did you know that Tolkein dreamt some of his book? I think all dreams are original.... and this story is more than original, but its unique!

(even though they kinda mean the same thing) lol

[RingWench]

But how can dreams be original? They're just based on what we fear/desire/experience (at least, I think this is what lots of psychologists say).
Even if Tolkien had encountered something in, say, Shakespeare, and it gave him inspiration for something, that doesn't mean he's not an original author. He wrote the battle scenes, developed the characters, and created a new fictional universe.
Ents in Shakespeare? Can anyone tell me where? I'd like to trumpet it around the English department at my school.

--Jess

[A! Elbereth]

I love your statement Ring!Even if Tolkien had encountered something in, say, Shakespeare, and it gave him inspiration for something, that doesn't mean he's not an original author. Your right! Dreams get the ideas from life... but when the story is put together... *whew* THAT my friends, is when it is original!

[Catz]

actually...thats what i said...if you'll go back and read my post, i stated that the way the whole thing was put together, as in battles etc...was new and different....however....my point is that there are no original ideas, just new ways of expressing them...i am not accusing the Prof of being unoriginal, i am saying, that like every author before or since, there are influences on the writing...and if you have a problem with that, i would suggest you read the Ring Cycle of myths from which Wagner wrote his opera, and then tell me theres no influence...tho why anyone would want to deny the influence of mythology on JRR's work when he himself did not, escapes me.....
and since i have stated twice already that i consider the power of the story sufficient to overcome the clumsy construction at times...i really dont see where you think im knocking the book....besides, i wasnt the one who said the the whole casting of the ring into mt Doom was rushed, now was I?
If great descriptive writing was all there was to writing a book thered be a great many more writers.....you can describe things as beautifully as you like, but if you cant organise your thoughts, you arent a good writer.....if you cant make transitions gracefully, you are NOT a good writer....now im NOT saying the JRR was always clumsy....just that he was in places
Dont take it so personally, people....:cool:

[Mirkgirl]

all new is old things reassembled in an original or not so original way... all masterpieces are made by an author, who has a wide and free imagination and deep knowledge of what is done before him

[Gil-Galad]

Nicely put mirky.

P.S. I always liked shakespear. dont ask me why

YOu villan. YOu will be cast in to everlasting redemption! Dogberry (the best)

Stung by stones and arrows of outragoues fortune.

Sorry, a little carrried away. I love tolkien way more than shakespear!

[A! Elbereth]

Catz, if I took it personally... you'd hear alot more than an argument :)

[Catz]

*smiles*...i didnt mean just you A! Elbereth....
and agreed Gil......very well put Mirky.....and theres my major failing as a writer....never use one word where twelve will do...;) lol
:catz:

[Fatty]

Hmmm Catz stirring up a hornets nest I see ;-)

I think all authors borrow from their forebearers, it is the way of things. I agree that Tolkien is not a great writer in a texhnical sense. He is a great story teller, adn his actual story is superb. Like catz says a lot of the dialogue is ropey, infact in The Return of the Kin ghe seems to go into some kind of biblical ranting adn all the characters talk in "the sermon from the mount" :-)

Nevertheless he puls it off. As for Shakespear,e he too has his moments, witty, inciteful, boring, predictable....all these things but the English language owes him a lot. Though I daresay he owes a bit to Chaucer etc. It is like most thingsd in life people borrow or are inspired that show progress and new things develop. If we started from scratrch every time we would still be trying to get teermites out of mounds with sticks. ;-)

[Catz]

but interesting hornets you must admit....;) lol
very well put Fatty....much better than i put it.....and i totally agree....
:catz:

[PrinceImrahil]

I really love Shakespeare but I cannot seem to realoize why we are assigned to READ something that is meant to be SEEN. God english teahers **** me off.

[Bonos-Girl]

Yeh I know, Our english teacher isn't that bad but I just can't DO english, I am a mathsy/sciency person and no-one seems to understand that. My mums just like 'of course you can do english, you don't try hard enough' aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh.,....

[Pil]

I soooo didn't get Twelfth Night until i had actually seen it on stage. I agree, plays are for SEEEEING!!!! :elfeek:

[Mirkgirl]

Think whatever you want for me but I think they must be seen and read...

[Bonos-Girl]

when i read twelfth night (not by choice) i didn't get it at all and then we were all taken to see it as a play and i was thinking 'oh, so thats whats going on' I didn't even understand the film but when we saqw it live i got it...don't ask me why, i just did

[PrinceImrahil]

I read Much Ado About Nothing and didn't have a clue what was going on. Well, ii had some sense of what was happening, but after I saw the movie everything sort of clicked.

[A! Elbereth]

hmmm... yes... ok? lol

[Pil]

Plays soooo should not be seen AND read! I mean, a script is not written for a film for people to read the script...it so that the actors can act in the FILM which is what people go and SEE! Same with plays...! I mean...someof us...not mentioning names here...go looking for the script to certain films on the net...but we're naughty!!! lol

[Catz]

oh i dunno.......plays i do agree are meant to be seen, but it can be good to see a script too.....that way you get the authors words, without the interference of the director and the actors interpretations....it can be good to have that as a benchmark....:cool:
:catz:

[Fætari]

Hi everyone! I'm Featari, also known as Alison. I'm Elentari's daughter, and a BIG LOTR fan. :)
I've only read the series once through, but when it came to the part in mount doom, I think that he rushed through that part, because it took me a minute to finally find out what was happening. (And as far as Shakespeare goes; I've only seen, or read some of his literature. But, I've liked all of the stuff I've read so far. I also personally think that Romeo and Juliet was a beautiful story, regardless of how old the story itself is. :p

[Fatty]

Hi Featari, welcome to War of the Ring. I hope you have fun and enjoy your stay. (-:

I can see what people mean about the last part of the book. But then again how many pages can you trudge through a volcanic wasteground.

[Orc]

Students read Shakespear rather than see it because they are students and supposed to be studying the work. So much can be missed in a life performance - just look at the way they re-did Romeo and Juliet several years ago. While every line of dialogue was spoken (and suposably to the letter), it was rammed down the audiences throat so incredibly fast that it made no sence.

By dealing with the written version of a play, you can go back and fourth, through the text, re-read sections over and over until it makes sence and use it as a refrence. It's easier to 'disect' and 'examine' and 'explore' Shakespear in the written form because the words are right in front of you. The origional words written by the bard and not some intrepitation by some pompus git of a director who want's to "spice it up" or make it "more contemporary."

Shakespear is immortal because he deals prdominantly with the essance of humanity - something that is timeless and as true today as it was when written.

Tolkien, on the other hand, was trying to create a legend on the scale of Beowuf or The Illiad. He concentrates on the legend and the setting rather than other items. It isn't to hard to pick appart Tolkien's works to find parts that are wanting or don't quite add up (i.e. hobbits sucessfully disguised as orcs etc). At times he goes into wonderous detail, while at others you have to re-read things over and over to try to figure out exactily what is going on.

Was Tolkien a good writer from a 'technical' stand point? IMHO, not especially. Was he a good story teller? Most definately!

[A! Elbereth]

Well Fatty, Tolkien seemed to trudge through much more things that well.. didnt need to be explained so well. When I read it I was expecting them to at least try to get back down the mountain and stuff like that.

[Catz]

Yes welcome Featari....make yourself at home:grin:
and beautifully put master Orc, as usual....i agree totally...
:catz:

[Pil]

Ok...when we talk about plays being seen...we don't mean films...we mean stage performances. i mean, personally i really liked what they did with romeo and juliet...but, anyway... i still think plays are to be seen and not read! verymad ;)

[Bonos-Girl]

yeh, i really enjoyed romeo +juliet although i love all baz lurhman's films. it made more sense to me than reading the play ever would but everyone understands things in different ways sooo....

[Pil]

Yup...i agree. That's why we should have an opportunity to SEE shakespeare AS WELL AS read it. GIve's everyone a chance to enjoy! :angel:

[Pil]

I have decided to knotch up my opinion of the mount doom bit a tad cos of the eagles. You know, how they come with gandalf to save frodo and sam?... Nice move eagles! :thumbs: :)

I'm making a website bout the eagles of ME! lol :)

[HobbitFriend]

Originally posted by PrinceImrahil
I actually have to agree with catz (don't slap me plz). Tolkien is really not the greatest writer out there. Don't get me wrong, LOTR and Company are my favorite books and have been sine I was six. But don't you ever question why LOTR is never studied in High School classes? Its beause his writing really isn't "Great."

I think we an trust PJ for the film version. FOTR makes TTT and ROTK look very promising.
hey, they study the Lord of the Rings at my high school! pfbbt but yes, i do agree... i was upset that he ran so quickly through that part :( after reading that chapter i was like okay what else could he talk about for the remainding 6 chapters1 and i thought it would be boring. But the Scouring of the Shire made up for that. Still i hope it's longer in the movie!

[Catz]

i dont think theres much danger of it being rushed in the movie, HF.....after all theyve worked up to it for three years and two and half movies lol lol ....i think it will be suitably climactic:cool:
:catz:

[Nessa]

Oh, the movies will definately milk it for all its worth. Good. ;)

It pains me to think of The Professor as a bad writer, but its probably true, and I think they were required reading in many high schools at one time. They're on my reading list, anyway.

I tend to look at it in a slightly different view, but probably just because I'm in denial. Tolkien tended to drag through certain things like dialog and scenery during journeys and then rush through exciting scenes. I actually think this is why his stories seem so real to me. Perhaps I'm only trying to justify what is inevitably poor writing skills, but scenes like Mount Doom wouldn't really take up that much time, it was written rushed and confused, much like it would have happened in real life.

Wow, that doesn't even make sense to me and I wrote it? ;)

Is there some sort of class I can take to make me understandable? roflmao

[Catz]

if there is can i join?:grin:
Yeah....i see what you mean Nessa.....but i really think it was simply that the Prof had spent years working up to that moment....and then when he got there, found he wasnt quite sure what to do next....but either explanation will do the job i guess lol :thumbs:
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Although it went fast, I would NEVER in all my life call Tolkein a bad writer the least bit. His book is the only book that I have spent all my hours thinking about. And I can't go a week without reading some of it! He sure can capture whats inside so that you cant let go without a fight!

[Pil]

Nice to have SOMEONE willing to stick up for the guy! :knight: :dragon:

[Aragorn Isildur]

What is that thing?!? *points to the above post's pic*

[HobbitFriend]

Tolkien makes the story so real (IMO) that it's like there really is/was Middle-earth and Hobbits, and Wizards and even the One Ring. It's almost like you're sharing in the adventure and it obviously took a lot of time and was very thought out... i mean he even made up languages and backgrounds to go with the book!! He makes it like it really WAS history! ... and that also brings the reader even more into the book. :read:
Not many books are like that. With many books, they're just books. With Tolkien, it's an adventure... :battle:

[Nessa]

Thats kind of the point I was trying to make, Pil and HobbitFriend.

I'm no sure how well it came accross....me no good wif words....;)

Aragorn_Isildur: Do you mean Pil's avatar? Its the balrog on the bridge, isn't it?

[Aragorn Isildur]

No i meant the dragon and St George

[Catz]

no one ever said that the story isnt all of those things guys......and JRR was a great story teller....just not the worlds greatest writer....they are different things :)
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Well to me Tolkein is the worlds greatest writer! Thats what I meant... hey Nessa!!!!!! I defended Tolkein too! Dont leave me out! mecry

And HF I agree! It does make you feel that it is history! If it was I could only wish I was part of it. Tolkein got some of his story from a dream - a very long dream at that! pure genius!

[Nessa]

Sorry Elbereth! I saw your defense! Very nice. You know, Catz does have a point... but I'd rather just ignore it. ;)

[Pil]

It's a smilie....repeat after me...S-M-I-L-I-E... lol Soz mate! :beer:

[A! Elbereth]

err................ :huh:

[Pil]

Wasn't this about Mount Doom? I take ur point (:huh: ) A! Elbereth.

I re-read that bit of the story again last night...and i actually enjoyed it more than usual...dunno why...i had a good visual thing going on. I like to see it from sam's point of view...the blood dripping into his eyes...his horror as he sees gollum fightin with an invisible foe...class... :read:

[Catz]

Mmmm....its a very visual passage....and thats why i think it'll be great in the movie...theres so much potential in it, for a really visually powerful scene.......should be good:cool:
:catz:

[Nessa]

I love the scene in the book, I'm quickly approaching it now....

If done right in the film it should be stunning....should rival anything I've ever seen in a movie before....Wow, PJ's got a lot to live up to...

I think there's only one thing that could ruin it in the film.....

Nuclear Frodo! :o

He wouldn't dare! Would he?

[A! Elbereth]

What? Nuclear Frodo? My dense brain cannot process this knowledge! please explain! lol ;) but seriously

[Nessa]

You know when Galadriel was tempted by the ring and she began to glow and so on?

I'm just hoping the same cgi effect won't be used on Frodo when he is tempted....

Its completely off topic anyway, don't worry about it. :grin:

[Pil]

NO! IT'S ON TOPIC...IT'S ABOUT HOW MOUNT DOOM WILL BE SHOT....don't take nuclear frodo away from me... mecry lol

I think that ANY sort of further nuclear involment will be a) annoying and b) HI-LARIOUS!!!! roflmao

[Catz]

maybe....but not the section of the movie where you want to be giggling, y'know? lol lol
:catz:

[Nessa]

I wanna see Elijah act, ******! If I see a hint of green..... verymad lol

Anyways I read through Mount Doom scene again in the book, and it did feel rushed as it always does, but I love it none the less, I always sort of slow it down in my mind.....

[Pil]

If you read each sentence twice it helps... :duh: lol

[A! Elbereth]

yea it helped why do you want to see him .......oh

[Pil]

:huh: am i just thick or summut...i sooo didn't get that post... :embarras:

[A! Elbereth]

my post? I thought she said something else and when i realized it and said 'oh'.................................:huh:
ok that didnt make sense either - forget it