What do you think of Sam and Gollum? (SPOILERS)

[Amarant]

Don't read this if you don't the book and quite probably the movie SPOILED!

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I think so far Gollum has been treated severely unfairly by Sam. I was reading today and just wanted to pull Sam out of the book and slap him, lol.

Um, please mark spoilers, and if possible by chapter. Where I am, Sam has just spotted the 'Oliphaunt', though I suspect I shall be done with the book by the end of next week, if my schedule permits :). Anyway, dig in!

Gazizza
Amarant

*MARK SPOILERS* :p

[Tar-Ancalimë]

no. i dont think its at all unfair. gollum's attitude deserves it completely. tho i know he's corrupted by the ring, were i to travel with him i would probably be more mean to him than sam. i hate gollum. i suppose that makes me a terrible person but i didnt pity him at all!!! oh well i know thats strong. its just the way i am :(



*spoilers* the way he died made me go 'ha ha to you, stinker pfbbt'

[Wilwarin]

Gee Tar. you HATE him?

I don't hate Gollum. I pitty him. But I don't think Sam was being too harsh either. I liked how Sam treated him. It was funny. :p

:SPOILER:




I always was hoping that Gollum would turn good at the end. And when he died I was like, wait a minute! He's supposed to get good! But I guess it was for the best. He was too far gone.

[A! Elbereth]

Sam doesn't really do much to Gollum besides calling him 'stinker and slinker' and making his suspicions of Gollum known.

I didn't think much when Gollum died. I was too embedded in the story's detail to think about such things - mouth hanging wide open. But I am now very greatful of Gollum. Frodo would have died if it was not for this 'awful' creature. Obviously his long years of existance all came down this moment, where the reason for this act to take the ring from Frodo ended up being a good thing.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Amarant, seriously, if you don't want spoilers, you shouldn't ahve strated this thread... there El goes, giving away the ending :p

yes i hate him. pfbbt that's another thing i am not looking forward to in ttt. he looks so ugly and stupid in the trailers.

[Bonos-Girl]

i don't hate gollum...i thought it was impossible....he is pityful...but it's not his fault really....

[TheRingBearer]

Gollum is one of my favourite characters mainly because of his part to play in the story and just that he is living proof of what the ring can do to the weak of mind.
Amarant, by the time you finish the book, you will not want to slap Sam ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

well its not impossible. *sigh* i know that says a lot about me... because, i dont think im capable of pitying gollum... i simply dont, and i would hate to share a quest with him... and however 'beneficial' his interferance was to ME, it wasnt through any outstanding act of his. it was because he broke the promise he made to the ring. it was because he did something evil... not because he is in any way good. now i know no one was trying to say he is good, at all, but i hate him. as for leading frodo and sam to Mordor, it wasnt that important that it be him to lead them... he just happened to be there...even if he hadnt, another way could have been found: "'It's my doom, I think, to go to that Shadow yonder, so that a way will be found.' " ~Frodo, in Emyn Muil.

[Amarant]

Amarant, seriously, if you don't want spoilers, you shouldn't ahve strated this thread... there El goes, giving away the ending

Well I didn't read his post 'cause I was carefully skimming :p. Anyway, I just got eager after reading those chapters, and I didn't think I'd be on the computer 'til at least sunday (but here I am ;)). Anyway, by that time I would have finished the book.

It was just out of courtesy to others that I asked to mark spoilers :).

And I guess I'm biased to hate Sam, because I find Gollum so hilarious (I especially loved "Are there any Oliphaunts with them?"

'No, no Oliphaunts. What are Oliphaunts?')

:)

Gazizza
Amarant

[Big Ranger]

I was cool wit Gollum, he looked like he coulda been a hobbit a couple thousand years ago, but what freaked me out was his COLOR!
For whatever reason (and not just from the Ralph Bakshi cartoon movie), I always always think of him as being pitch black, like tire rubber...so seeing him people-colored was pretty weird...
Otherwise, tho', I thought he looked pretty good.
And FWIW, I was right along there with Sam all the way, I'd of kicked the **** out of the little weasel...especially after Shelob...

[Luthien]

When I first got to TTT the book I was thinking...so what's so wrong with Gollum he doesn't seem that bad and he was one of my favorite characters as well, BUT then when a little chapter called Shelobs Lair came by I was thinking "You little &%#@"
:fanboy:

[A! Elbereth]

Originally posted by Amarant
Well I didn't read his post 'cause I was carefully skimming :p.
Gazizza
Amarant

:elfeek: his??? *cough* I am female! *cough* lol

oh... and I didn't give away the ending, because I do believe someone stated it before moi

[TheRingBearer]

Originally posted by Luthien
When I first got to TTT the book I was thinking...so what's so wrong with Gollum he doesn't seem that bad and he was one of my favorite characters as well, BUT then when a little chapter called Shelobs Lair came by I was thinking "You little &%#@"
:fanboy:

lol I see. He is a bit of a rat isn't he.

[Ithielnor]

hmmm.....when i read the book the first time, before the movie came out, I pictured Gollum somthing like the plum fellow from the candyland game!!!!roflmao I was pleasently suprised by FOTR.

SPOILERS
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actually i found the Smeagol (in 'the taming of smeagol') a rather nice fellow, you could see that he was fighting the desire within him, but the Shelob chapter was to much treachery, and his death was unexpected but perfect.

[Bess the Bard]

Spoiler......

Gollum is corrupted by the Ring. It played on his natural greed and weak character, much like any addiction can magnify a person's own weaknesses. So I do feel sorry for him, while despising what he does in leading Sam and Frodo to Shelob's Lair.

Tolkien points out in one of his letters that Gollum had a moment when Smeogol was in control and Gollum might have been saved. That's when he comes up on Sam and Frodo sleeping and then Sam wakes up and accuses Gollum of sneaking around with bad intentions. Tolkien "blames" Sam for messing up Gollum's potential redemption. It was Sam's narrow-minded suspicion that prompted Gollum to go ahead with his plan of betraying them. Of course, Sam would not have been suspicious if Gollum's previous behavior had not justified it. So Gollum's lack of redemption was probably inevitable within the story, and it was a very useful plot device for Tolkien.

[TheRingBearer]

So its kinda ironic that he's the one who destorys it, don't you think so ;)

[Bess the Bard]

Exactly. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

i disagree. you know how he swears on 'the precious' that he wont harm frodo? well he does...and the ring destoys him... coincidence? irony? i somehow dont think so...

the nasty stupid little thing, making a promise he knew he couldnt keep... making a promise on something he knew to be so cruel.... grrr

[Kalimac]

To be fair to Sam, Tolkien also pointed out that Gollum/Smeagol had become too mean in the end. That if redeemtion had been possible than a petty thing like Sam's disapproving words never would have caused Gollum to betray Frodo.

[QUOTE]Letter 181 Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable.

I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge.

The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path.

Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different!

By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.[/QOUTE]

[Nessa]

Do I think Sam was unfair to Gollum? Not really. I think he only seemed harsh in contrast to Frodo, who pitied the little guy incredibly.

SPOILER!
Do I hate Gollum? Absolutely not. I get a touch hot under the collar about the whole Shelob thing, but I find it impossible (no offense Tar) not to pity him. Look at the facts, Frodo could have turned out the same way. :o

[Tar-Ancalimë]

no offense taken... that's you...and i'm me... a real meanie i guess :(

(at least according to mirkgirl lol)

[Nessa]

Nah, just not afraid to have an opinion. ;)

I'm going to scoot this over to Lit discussion, its better suited for it. :)

[Amarant]

Finally back online here :p.

Hmm... I finished TTT about two weeks ago, and my opinion has shifted a bit. Gollum's betrayal was incredible (not in a good way, of course), but as stated before, how is he supposed to be redeemed when Sam wouldn't allow it to happen?

I don't like Sam, he seems rather cowardly and curt. Grr. I don't like Sam, haha.

Gazizza
Amarant