fearnors motive was not his gems

[Morgoth]

It is comen that people think that the flight of the nolder and the oath of fearnor and he his seven sons was come about due to the 'Rape of the silmarils'
I tend to disagree with this.
I belive that Fearnor was driven to the oath and flight because of his father Finwe alone..

then fearnor ran from the ring of doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the light of valinor or the peerless works of his hands; of elves or of men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

this suports the fact that he held his father greater than the gems...

His wrath and his hate were given most to morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the silmarils.

and this quote links ith this one later in book

Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my fathers slayer and of the thief of my treasure. Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your king

this backs up my claim that it was infact his fathers death that drove him to his deeds for in both quotes you notace that Finwe spoken of before that of the silmarils, and in the second quote you see also this

Finwe-----Silmaril-----Finwe

the death of his father is mostly on his lips and even if the silmarils were never forged the responce would have been the same.

[Grond]

Well, you certainly quoted all the good stuff whereby one could reach the conclusion that ole Feanor's actions were driven by the loss of his father... but your theory is absolutely doomed to failure because you used the word "alone." It won't work.from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. they swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.Notice anything about this quote?? Nowhere is the name Finwe mentioned. The Oath of Feanor invoked Doom only on anyone whoso should hold a Silmaril from their possession. It was not an Oath of Vengeance on Morgoth for his father's murder. It was an Oath of Vengeance on anyone who would possess, or even seek to possess a Silmaril.

[Mirkgirl]

Welcome to the forums, Morgoth! (you really should post in the welcome forum for a proper welcome) It's always a pleasure to see someone thinking over the books! (-:
I can agree with you... up to a point. The Silmarills were the main reason, but the father's murder was the reason for the hasty desicions IMO.
Tho the greed (or however you'd call it, I don't think there is a proper word anyway) for the Silmarils drove him after Morgoth, with or without his father's murder, which would have lead to 'quarrel' with the Valar. But the father's murder added a pure emotional motive, which combined with the 'greed' for the Silmarils made him act without any thought.

And for his words... the Silmarils corrupt and he was after them, nothing can ever make him give them up, but the father was the more emotional string... hence he spoke more of it. And it's natural for a human being to try to convince himself and the others that his motives are high and pure... we do that all the time without even noticing, subconsciously (Tolkien was good with human nature, one has to admit)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

i agree that finwes death was a motive.
but i think the main one certainly is the theft of the Silmarils.
Now i dont have the time to as thouroughly explain my position as do you all, but what i think is that you do have a point, however, as grond said, the word "alone" was used... indiscriminately?
even if it was intentional, i must disagree with your use of it.
because it certainly is clear that the theft of the silmarils were not only a catalyst but a main motive.
thank you grond for that quote, i cant find a better one.
yes i agree completely with mirkgirl, the father's murder was responsible for the impetuousness that he and his sons live to rue.
jrr was excellent with human nature, that is why we love his books so much. because he was a brilliant man, but underneath that is his understanding of humanity.
jrr seems to enjoy the theme of the corrupting power of material things... things that dont really matter in the grand scheme... and feanor's father's death applies more to what really matters rather than materialism... so i prefer to lean more towards the motive caused by the loss of the jewels

if this post makes no sense i am sorry. im asleep and frustrated and im trying to do too many things at once.

[Morgoth]

Yes thanx for the welcome mirkgirl (but i joined a while ago lol but just like to read what the people are like first and I know I've seen you about lol and I defently know grond though I don't think you know me lol [by the way grond your the dude:)])

any way back ontopic
I knew that you guys would come to that conclution but I have a reply to it.
for you see they could not swear an oath to bring back there grand/father for he was dead, but they could however bring back the silmarils...
so I propose to you that it was still indeed his fathers death that motrvated his and his sons actions.
if the silmarils had stayed he would have taken an oath to keep them to his self and damn anyone whom would wish to desire them and would do exactly the same as he did.
However if the silmarils had been taken and Finwe lived do you think Fearnor would have taken the oath...
can you see Finwe king of the nolder taken such an oath and fleeing the west..... no way and for love of his father fearnor would not leave his father. I do belive they would indeed go after morgoth but with less haste and most lively all 3 houses of the elves would have gone and morgoth would have had a short stay in middle earth.... but that would not lead to a very good story i agree but thats not the point...

anther point I'd like to share witch could be intresting which you have quoted grond.

and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches

this may be another referance to finwe's death,
i mean why use blood shone instead of fire????
the blood of finwe ruled that night maybe

[Tar-Ancalimë]

welcome welcome.... nice to see you posting, awesome first post...(yeah we all love grond ;))
to tell you the truth i never thought about this before
ok topicOriginally posted by Morgoth
However if the silmarils had been taken and Finwe lived do you think Fearnor would have taken the oath... yes i do. like i said, its a theme you see often portrayed in tolkiens work... finwe might have been disappointed in his son and forbidden him to do so, but i still think a lot of feanor's rage came from the theft. also the murder but i think the theft was the bigger motive. but i really dont have time this morning will reply more later...

[Finrod Felagund]

I would like to add that Feanor also wanted to rule by himself, without the leave of the Valar. He had been stewing to leave for a while.
And he might have been a touch unstable. The line between genius and insanity is razor thin.

[Morgoth]

well yeah it is but thats not really the point is it
the point is he was driven more at the loss of his father than the loss of his gems

[Grond]

Originally posted by Morgoth
well yeah it is but thats not really the point is it
the point is he was driven more at the loss of his father than the loss of his gems His actions don't justify this comment. He swore his oath about the Silmarils. He claimed the Kingship almost immediately. I know he loved his father but he left Valinor because of the seeds planted by Melkor long before brought to fruition by the murder of Finwe and the Rape of the Silmarils.

The oath did not mention Finwe once. :(

[Morgoth]

why would it finwe was now dead

[Tar-Ancalimë]

um because your whole thesis is that his very death was the motive for taking the oath... or have i completely read your posts wrong... because that last one sounded incongruous with the rest ...

[Morgoth]

I'm saying its the main reason

[Ithielnor]

but if it were the main reason than the oath would have mentioned some thing about revenge for the death of his father. I agree with Grond, the death of Finwë was just an aggrevator, and had he lived fëanor would still have gone after the silmarils. Perhaps he would have gone more wisely, if that is possible, seeing they went against the will of the Valar, but he still would have been angered with Morgoth enough to leave Valinor.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Morgoth
I'm saying its the main reason My apologies for pointing out a blatant misstatement but here is your quote from the first post on this thread.originally posted by Morgoth in the first post describing the premise of this thread
,,,I belive that Fearnor was driven to the oath and flight because of his father Finwe alone..You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you defend your main proposition of this thread (that Finwe's death was the sole reason) or restate your premise. ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

um as long as we are pointing out contradictions, you contradicted yourself pretty forcefully, Grond, in immortality/mortality choice....

[Morgoth]

its the main reason so there for he is driven

[Lalaith]

Hmmmmm. I think that Feanor was driven by the Silmarils. They had corrupted him, and while I'm not denying that the death of his father was a contributing factor, it was not the main force.
He swore an oath to retrieve the Silmarils and only his sons were rash enough to follow his lead and bind themselves to this oath. Had he been driven on by vengeance towards his father's killer, surely his half-brothers would have been honour-bound to accompany him. As it turned out, Fingolfin led a second host of Noldor, independently to Feanor and Finarfin remained in Valinor. They could not swear such an oath. To bring the Everlasting Dark upon them if they did not retrieve the jewels? It was not vengeance but greed...



(also the story is the silmarillion... so the silmarils are a kinda important feature!! lol )

[Morgoth]

ok I'll add this quote once again
then fearnor ran from the ring of doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the light of valinor or the peerless works of his hands; of elves or of men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

He loved his father more than the gems.
his motive was driven more his fathers death than by the gems