Which are the Two Towers ?

[Sharky]

In the commentaries on the LotR DVD, Peter Jackson says that the Two Towers are Orthanc & Barad Dur, but my understanding is that the publishers based the name on books 3 & 4 of the original text, book 3 being based around Orthanc, and book 4 being Frodo & Sams journey to Minas Morgul.

Obviously Orthanc is one of them, but which do you think is the 2nd tower ?

[Grond]

from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #140
"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous- it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)."

The footnote (1) to this letter reads:
"In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are `Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgul flies."from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #143
"I am not at all happy about the title `the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." The author seems to think it is the Tower of Orthanc and the either the Tower of Cirith Ungol or the Tower of Minas Morgul. He acknowledges that it might also be construed as Barad-Dur and Minas Tirith. It is pretty much left up to the reader, being an ambiguous title.

Of course, if PJ says that it is Orthanc and Barad-Dur, I'm sure he is right. After all, his movies show what a brilliant insight he has into the mind of J. R. R. Tolkien. His adaptation has been so true to the book, especially his portrayal of Arwen and her immense courage in facing the Ringwraiths at the Fords of Bruinen. That scene was right out of the book. ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

oh youve just opened up a huge can of worms, sharky. theres huge debate over this. if you dont want to wade thru gronds quotes, let me just say

"we dont know for sure"

there was a big discussion over htis a while back... in this (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153) thread....

[Sharky]

Tar-Ancalimë, sorry 'bout that, I hadn't read that all of that thread, problem with being a newbie is its hard to catch up on all thats passed.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

oh np... its kinda long, but the last page has a bit about it as well as the other pages... did it help?

[Orkybash]

Hmm.... You're all wrong! It's Orthanc and the tower of the hornburg at Helm's Deep! roflmao

But seriously... my take on it is that the title doesn't refer as much to the two towers themselves as it does the forces within those two towers. Thus, the first would indeed be Orthanc, since book 3 primarily deals with the forces of Saruman, and Barad-Dur, since book 4 primarily deals with the forces of Sauron, not to mention the journey to Mordor.

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
oh np... its kinda long, but the last page has a bit about it as well as the other pages... did it help?

Yes it did help, it helped me realise no one knows for sure ! ;)

I always thought the ambiguity was due to the publishers choosing the titles rather than Tolkien.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

yes that is true.

orky--roflmao...no, its the towers of Narchost and Carchost!!!

verymadas for PJ-- just... just...dont even go there, grond. if it makes sense to the avarage spectator to say the towers are orthanc and barad-dur, then THATS WHAT HE SHOULD DO
and sarcasm doesnt help the issue either .......

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
...verymadas for PJ-- just... just...dont even go there, grond. if it makes sense to the avarage spectator to say the towers are orthanc and barad-dur, then THATS WHAT HE SHOULD DO and sarcasm doesnt help the issue either ....... Ahhh Tar. I actually love the movies.... but just can't get over the story alterations which I feel are unwarranted. *shrugs* But what do I know about making a movie?

[Tar-Ancalimë]

look im sorry. i posted that when i was in a bad mood. that was really mean, i dont know why i post when im in that kind of mood. i dont like the alterations either :huh: lol

[Aragorn Isildur]

Since i have the copies with Tolkiens original sketches i always thing that its Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

Aragorn:king:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Aragorn_Isildur
Since i have the copies with Tolkiens original sketches i always thing that its Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

Aragorn:king: LOL! Tolkien was requested to do those sketches for a book cover by the Publisher. Maybe he had made up his mind or maybe the Publisher made up his mind for him.

[Isiltári]

I'm quite pleased to find this thread -- I always thought the Two Towers would mean Orthanc and Cirith Ungol -- I was really surprised when I heard PJ was indicating Orthanc and Barad-dur!!!!!

Thanks very much for the info.......it's much appreciated! :thumbs:

[Lady Ashley]

I agree with Isiltari. I thought it was always Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. (Maybe even Minas Morgul.)

I was like, "Where did PJ get the idea it was Barad-dur?..."

But they needed a definate tower instead of a debated issue to go with the title of TTT, or else it would need to be called "The Four Debated Towers"....LOL

But what would they have called the second book if not "The Two Towers"? A very hard question, but maybe someone has a revolutionary idea!

[Tar-Ancalimë]

call it, Lord of the Rings II... The Second Part of the Tale of the War of the Ring... The Fellowship of the Ring: Continued... The Prequel to the Return of the King...

lol i dunno... well yes i agree he ought to identify the towers, or he would get a million questions about it and have to some up with something anyway...

[Undomiel]

Ok i have a copy of FOTR which says this at the end (just to add my point of view):

"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring.
The Second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor" etc.

Since i read that, that is what i have always assumed.

[Orkybash]

Two Towers, page 427 in the Houghton Mifflin edition with the Alan Lee covers (for those of you who have a different one, it's in the middle of "The Riders of Rohan):

"So suspecting what I most fear, a league between Orthanc and the Dark Tower, I lead forth my eored..."

Just to complicate things, this passage points to Orthanc and Barad-Dur (though i suppose you could also interperet "Dark Tower" as Minas Morgul). It's not an instrumental passage to the story, but I still think it provides some insight to the identity of the towers.

I hold by what I've said before: the title refers to the forces within the two towers (the army of Isengard and the army of Mordor), and that would mean that the towers would be Orthanc and Barad-Dur, though Minas Morgul would work there since it's also representative of the forces of Mordor.

[Undomiel]

i think that makes the most sense really. I mean there ar so many towers in the book it's way too confusing-i tried to find all the different ones:

Minas Morgul
Barad-Dur
The Towers of the Teeth
The Tower of Cirith Ungol
Minas Tirith (is mentioned at least)
Orthanc

Seriously confusing!!!

[dwarflord]

since i read the two towers at age 14 i always thought it was meaning Minas Tirith vs Minas Morgul; the sons of Numenor against the `sons` of .....erm the rest :)

Yaeh ok its wide open to debate !

[Windwater Elf]

I still think that Peter Jackson is right and that the two towers refer to Orthanc and Barad-dur, the home of the two most prominent villains of the saga.

[Undomiel]

i think the Nazgul were also very prominent though. They feature quite heavily. They are present at battles etc. while Sauron is the Enemy who's talked about but not seen.

[Windwater Elf]

Undomiel, you are right in saying that the Nazgul feature more. But then Sauron is the Lord of The Rings and the Nazgul are his servants so I guess the balance tips in Sauron's favour and that is why Peter Jackson chose Barad-dur.

[Mirkgirl]

My first association has always been Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, but that comes from their previous being as Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, towers of moon and sun... That's most likely wrong though, as it is based on nothing but that.

IMO it can be either two bad towers, for the two main evils or one good tower (Minas Tirith) and the main bad one (Barad-dur). Minas Tirith and Barad-dur doesn't look good to me, as Barad-dur is the source of the evil, but I can hardly call Minas Tirith the source of good. Well maybe the Nazgul and rest evil against the last guarding against the evil tower. So Barad-dur and Orthanc seem to fit best… and knowing the phonetically close names of the two villains, no wonder their towers to be the the towers (more an association than a prove though)

Just had a new idea in fact… what about Orthanc and Minas Morgul? The two towers which used to be good before being haunted by evil?

[Windwater Elf]

Orthanc and Barad-dur is quite a good idea. But Sauron being the big boss of evil gets his fortress of Barad-dur chosen as one of the two towers in the title role.

[Warrior Alien]

The 'Two Towers' don't have to be physical, but could have different meanings. You could do on forever, physically (my best bets are Barad-dur and Orthanc or the Towers of the Teeth:thumbs:).
It could mean the two forces, Mordor and Isengard, or the two metaphorical towers, Frodo and Sam, among the Alliance of Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves and Ents.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

eeek honster you dont make sense. let me try to understand you here...

Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, I understand your reason, it just doesn't seem a very good one to me. Thing I don't like about these two, it's that Minas Morgul is a tower which by chance happens to be in the story, that is, its in because frodo and sam happen to take that way into mordor. whereas minas tirith is a central tower, must be a central tower in any story having anything to do with the kingdom of men.

Minas Tirith and Barad-dur sounds better, imo. for one, although i concede minas tirith is not the source of ultimate good, it is at least the central tower of good, whereas Barad-dur is the central tower of evil. tho, i admit, it doesnt sound good.

Barad-dur and Orthanc shocked me at first, as Barad-dur is the seat of Sauron, principle villian of the story, and Orthanc just happens to be a random tower inhabited by a guy who thinks he can kick butt. the fact that he cant ought to exclude his tower from consideration, seeing as how its destroyed (or as good as destroyed) only halfway through the story. on reflection, however, it does make sense, as the two towers refers to the second part of the trilogy, and not to the whole thing. certianly these towers dominate the events, and it could easily refer to the union between the two towers.

Orthanc and Minas Morgul is great... as you said, both good --> evil, and they arent that central to the rest of the story, just this second part. certainly they are most important in this part, then kind of loose their significance in the next part (and they never had much in the first)... plus, its in keeping with the 'union between the two towers' business... so it would make both sides happy....

(omg am i agreeing with her)

[dwarflord]

they dont HAPPEN to take that way its the only way they can go!

minas morgul does not happen to be in the story BY CHANCE !!!

its a picture of how good can be corrupted to evil- the slide of numenor into chaos and inpotency; no lord of the viagra in mordor !

MM and MT are the towers that the ringbearer is nearest to in this part of his journey- and surely its the passage(journey to its doom) of the ring thats is central theme of the books?

[Ithielnor]

But the book is devided into two books; the first is about the rest of the fellowship and their doings, it is strongly intwined with the tower of Orthanc. The second part (book IV) is about the journey to.... well to be percise FOUR evil towers: Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and the Towers of the Teeth, the first two of which are more likely then the latter because they are more involved in the story at this point.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

actually, thats not really true. the story did jsut happen to have them go to minas tirith, there were a thousand other things that could have happened. plus, the tower is just there. its not even on the same level as minas tirith, minas tirith being ever so much more important to all three stories... a central tower in the story, nothing chancy about it. unlike, i contend, minas morgul. i agree that it serves to reinforce that theme you mention, but that in no way qualifies it to be a central tower in the story, at least not alongside minas tirith, which serves so many more purposes, and is a symbol on higher levels. the passage of the ring has naught to do with minas tirith, and a small part, a fraction of its journey to do with minas morgul. that does not qualify them to own the title of the second part together. and the passage of the ring, while a central theme, hardly is the onyl central theme of the books as a whole, let alone this second novel.

in short, i do not like the idea of minas morgul and minas tirith. however i concede i am no scholar, like tolkien or of tolkien. also that i am hardly the best one to decide which these towers should be. all in all minas tirith and barad dur appeals to me most, but on one level only (that of central good symbol, central bad symbol)...

mmm so which towers are you for, ithil? im sorry, im tired and i dont quite get what you mean

[Ithielnor]

rereading it, I don't understand myself either lol but I always thought that Orthanc was one of them as it is very important to book 3. As to the other one, I ment to say tha i'm not sure :grin: but I think that the 'good towers converted to bad' is a good point and that would make it either Cirith Ungul or Minas Morgul. I really am not sure.