Gollum hero or not

[Gil-galad Elven King]

tell me what you think of Gollum role in the books was he a hero

[Ithielnor]

what's your description of a hero?
I'll vote yes because without him the quest would've failed, but he is not a role model if that's what you mean.

[Adunauriel]

I to voted yes, I agree with Ithielnor.That no I don't think he was a hero. I think that if he hadn't of done what he did. The Quest would have failed. Having said that, this one good deed doesn't make up for all the other bad ones he did in the past....... He was still evil....:)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

HERO?? HERO?????

there are not words enough in any mortal tongue to express how much i do not think he was a hero.

the quest would techincally have failed without him, but let me explain my take on this.

first of all, there are two *major* reasons why gollum helped frodo out: a) showed them to Mordor; b) fell in Mount Doom.

with regard to a)... Frodo said, expressing my thoughts on this very clearly: "I wonder," said Frodo. "It's my doom, I think, to go to that Shadow yonder, so that a way will be found."
this shows very clearly that gollum was a mere tool in the big picture, ie, if he had not come, something else would have. anyway he messes them up completely in the process of getting them into mordor.

and as for b).... Gollum did not destroy the ring at all; the ring destroyed him. As he had sworn on "the precious" not to harm Frodo, and promptly broke that oath, the ring got him with a vengence... also, the fact that it was through him that the ring was destroyed does not make him a hero: he was being a selfish corrupt little jerk.

Gollum was no hero, thank you very much.

[Adunauriel]

Well Tar, That's basically what I ment. I think I'll thou, that I'll let you get all Angry, and if your not well then ok.......... ;) lol :)

p.s. It was a nice rant.........;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

what i said is what you meant... and i said gollum is no hero...and you voted him a hero...how does this work?

and tar is now lost ;)

[Adunauriel]

Well then change my vote to not, but I ment it that he was a hero for taking the ring from frodo so it got distroyed. But, he wasn't a hero, cause he still wasn't good. I guess I should have voted not to begin with..... So, please Tar change my vote to nota Hero.........;)

[A! Elbereth]

I wouldn't say he was a hero. He may have saved all of Middle Earth and Frodo's sanity, but it was completely an accident - a good one. Gollum would never willingly do it. So it only makes him a defeated, cowardly mad thing.

[Ithielnor]

ohboy! here we go,
A hero, or not a hero? that is the question.
NOT
the question is, what is a hero? one who 'accomplishes' great things? or, one who causes great things to come about? The entire matter hangs on the answer to this.
Gollum did not destroy the ring at all; the ring destroyed him. As he had sworn on "the precious" not to harm Frodo, and promptly broke that oath, the ring got him with a vengence... also, the fact that it was through him that the ring was destroyed does not make him a hero: he was being a selfish corrupt little jerk.
but what would have happened if he hadn't been there? Sam push Frodo in? I don't think so, Frodo could not have conquered without aid, there was no one there to give that aid except Sam and Gollum, Sam could have done nothing to hurt "Mr. Frodo" and it was shone (through Isildur) that the ring would not have let itself be destroyed without drastic measures, who else could have been of aid? Gandalf? perhaps he would have pushed Frodo in.
Remember Frodo said to forgive him, because without him the mission would have failed.
So in the end it boils down to, what is a hero?

This probably doesn't make any sense to you, sorry for rambling.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Hero \He"ro\, n.; pl. Heroes. [F. h['e]ros, L. heros, Gr. ?.]

. 1. (Myth.) An illustrious man, supposed to be exalted, after
death, to a place among the gods; a demigod, as Hercules.

. 2. A man of distinguished valor or enterprise in danger, or
fortitude in suffering; a prominent or central personage
in any remarkable action or event; hence, a great or
illustrious person.

. 3. The principal personage in a poem, story, and the like, or
the person who has the principal share in the transactions
related; as Achilles in the Iliad, Ulysses in the Odyssey,
and [AE]neas in the [AE]neid.


by all three of these definitions, the answer to the poll is "no"

[Sindarin]

At first, I was indecisive. Yet after reading these most apt descriptions, I agree with you Tar. Gollum is not a hero.

Although...if Gollum's undeterred greed hadn't have stopped Frodo's brief moment of insanity at Mount Doom who knows what would've happened to the One Ring?

Still, I believe Gollum isn't a hero.

[Ithielnor]

ok tar, I yeild the point, he was not a hero, he was a important character around which the plot was based. Should I have the mod change my vote? nah, I like to stand up for the misunderstood fellow. Devil's advocate kinda thing. Maybe I'll formulate another argument to prove that he was framed, he really wasn't as bad as Frodo and Sam made him sound. :grin: just kidding, you won ;) but don't change my vote.

also I excuse my self on the grounds that I got a really old dictionary which is rather vague about heros. :p

[Lady Melody]

I think not. He is certainly not a hero.
I perceive Gollumn as a victim, a mere pawn and a pitiful creature in the book. He just happened to be at certain places at certain times, for both good and evil. That's all.

[Herenyë]

i have no idea.....i think he is kinda of a hero for finding the ring.....if he didnt then Bilbo couldnt of found it and everything would of been different like i mean the dead or alive people or whatever would of still be looking for it and might of killed someone that was in the way......if he didnt find it then the ring will never be destroyed......but he is EVIL!!!!!.......well my opinion might not really count cuz i dont really understand or read the book.....so yea but so far i think he is kind of a hero......(sorry if i made myself look dum or something.....)

[Mirkgirl]

Gollum? A hero? A victim? No way.

He's never been anything. He was born as a weak-willed creature, living even more pitiful life with his powerful grandmother. He used to be the different one, the one whose eyes are downwarded, and being from the most important family didn't make it easier. The so called friend Deagol caused him pain every time he looked at him, seeing what he is and how the rest treat him.
Tho Tolkien never really writes it, we can easily understand that Smeagol kept accumulating anger and his inability to do anything, but investigating the roots and beginnings. The ring was looking for a wielder like that, one who never had any power or free will and therefore is easy to drive and would accept the fate to do nothing in a godforsaken place for long years till the master “returns”.
So as I said giving Smeagol the opportunity to kill Deagol and blame it on him was the first “gift”, the first step to the full domination of the ring over his weak soul.
Before the ring there was almost no Smeagol will. After it the only will he had was the confidence that the ring gave him. It was all his will after he lost the ring as well. His blind lust for the ring saved Middle Earth by chance and even this was not Golum’s work, he simply followed the ring.
I’m more eager to accept the ring itself as a hero then Golum ;)

Oh well I made no sense here....

[Polly Sandybanks]

I agree with what a lot of you have already written. Gollum was NOT a hero. He did what he did because he was addicted to the ring. It just happened to end very well.. for Frodo & co that is. Of course, he did show Frodo the way to Mount Doom, but that doesn't make him a hero. If he had been a hero he would have taken the ring to Mt Doom himself and thrown it in.. but he didn't. If he could choose he wouldn't have destroyed it.
So no, Gollum was no hero.. even though he was a good "tool" for the quest.

[Aragorn Isildur]

Here's a thought...If Gollum hadnt of been there and Frodo had his madness etc What would have happened when the Wraithes got there? Would that have stunned him into destroying the ring, or for Sam to take it from him and do it?

Aragorn:king:

[Nessa]

By definition, I think not. But I'm not voting, so it doesn't matter.

I think to qualify as a hero, you have to at least intend to do good. But I don't have any intense hate for Gollum, in fact he's the most pitiful creature I've ever come across. As I read it, he came fairly close to repenting once, while watching Frodo and Sam asleep in Cirith Ungol. (Be kind to me if I'm wrong, I don't post here often as I'm afraid of seeming stupid. :blush: )

[TheRingBearer]

No I do not think he was a hero simply because he never did manage to be rid of his addiction. In Star Wars for example, Darth Vader manages to conquer his evil possession and does the right thing. However, Gollum, although he does destory the ring, does not mean to. Plus he tries to (and sometimes suceeds) in betraying Frodo and as often as possible.

[Nessa]

Good point, RB, but does that mean you do not consider Frodo a hero? (Doesn't matter if you don't, most seem not to.)

[Gil-galad Elven King]

Originally posted by Nessa
Good point, RB, but does that mean you do not consider Frodo a hero? (Doesn't matter if you don't, most seem not to.)

I think Frodo is a hero

[Nessa]

Alright, maybe I'm wrong about what other people think.

My point was that if Gollum is considered not to be a hero because he didn't defeat his desire for the Ring, its hardly fair to say that Frodo is a hero, because he succumbed to it as well. In any case I'm off topic, so ignore me.

[Herenyë]

*IGNORES NESSA*.....heehee joking......wud you said was true.......frodo is somewhat a hero and so is everyone that is in the fellowship because they are defending the good side........

[TheRingBearer]

Originally posted by Nessa
Good point, RB, but does that mean you do not consider Frodo a hero? (Doesn't matter if you don't, most seem not to.)

I think Frodo is a hero because he managed to get the ring that far. How many other characters can you really say would not have been corrupted by the time you were inside Mount Doom itself. He needed Sam's help of course ;)

[Mirkgirl]

I'd have to remind you this is a thread about Gollum, not Frodo.... Nessa had a topic on heros while back - Who Was the Hero? (http://warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529) you can continue this there, thank you.

That's a good question AI, but if Gollum hasn't been there how would the hobbits enter Mordor even... that lil sneaker plays a very important role hehe

that still doesn't mean he's a hero and the strongest argument for me is that he does everything in his life because of the ring (well before he knew about the ring he didn't, but he hardly really did something then). So saying that Gollum is a hero is almost as absurd as saying that the ring is a hero.

[Daisy Gamgee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
. 3. The principal personage in a poem, story, and the like, or
the person who has the principal share in the transactions
related; as Achilles in the Iliad, Ulysses in the Odyssey,
and [AE]neas in the [AE]neid.
/QUOTE]

Surely in this definition he is a minor hero of the story. The principal personage does not have to just limit to one hero. We take all the members of the fellowship as heros of the story. Surely Gollum, who found the ring, and his actions led to the ring being passed onto Frodo, and then with his helping Frodo and Sam, could be said to be a principal personage of the story, therefore making him a hero by definition.

Not to say I think he is a hero, in the other sense of the word. That he is not. It was his desire to get the ring off Frodo, that led to his demise. It wasn't any herioc actions. And yes he helped them, but along the way the desire of the ring got the better of him, and he gave in, plotting to take Frodo and Sam via Shelob.

[Bawax]

i think he was a hero in a way, he guided frodo and Sam the best possible way he could, he had other things planned but without him frodo and Sam would never have even got into Mordor without being captured. :)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

mmm i disagree. i think ive said this before though. in this very thread, at that...lets see...Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
Frodo said, expressing my thoughts on this very clearly: "I wonder," said Frodo. "It's my doom, I think, to go to that Shadow yonder, so that a way will be found."
this shows very clearly that gollum was a mere tool in the big picture, ie, if he had not come, something else would have. anyway he messes them up completely in the process of getting them into mordor.

[Windwater Elf]

I voted no. Indirectly and by accident Gollum destroyed the Ring and saved Middle-earth but it was Frodo who brought the Ring thus far. I stress on the words 'by accident', so he is not a hero at all.

[Bess the Bard]

When I originally answered the poll, I was considering the term "hero" in a dramatic sense, as a major contributer of action to the story. So I said yes, Gollum is a hero--he advances the action of the story--he is a protagonist or hero.

I was vaguely operating under my concept of a protagonist, left over from college English classes. This is the definition I found.

Protagonist: (definition) The protagonist is a main character in the story. This character is attempting to achieve a goal or solve a problem but has a difficult time doing so. (Sometimes referred to as the hero.)

But when I actually looked up the above definition, I also found this:

Antagonist: (definition) This character (or force) attempts to stop the protagonist from achieving his/her goal. (Sometimes referred to as the villain.)

Gollum is such a complex character, and I have conflicting feelings about him. He can be both protagonist and antagonist to me. Gollum is microcosm of many of Tolkien's themes, all played out in one character. So in a literary sense, at least, I have to stick with my original vote. Yes, Gollum is a hero.