Two Towers Book Club - 21 day Reading Circle - Little Spoilers!

[Miruvor]

I am getting assertive and starting a thread.
I am just getting started re-reading the Two Towers in preparation for the Movie release. Is anybody else reading it too? Interested in reading a chapter per day through the next 21 days? Please give me feedback on whether I should persue this. My idea is to make a few light-weight comments on each chapter, (without spoiling too much.) Anyone else who would like to do so too, can add comments.

Will add disclaimer:
STAY OUT if you haven't and won't read the books, to avoid spoiling the movies!

If I get too many 'nays', then I will let it drop. Hurry though, we've only just enough time before Dec. 18th.

[Orkybash]

I'm planning to read the book too, but I'll probably get through a lot of it over Thanksgiving Break (so no chapter a night... more like two chapters a night for the next week, then whenever I have time! lol)

But by all means, go ahead, I'm always interested to hear people's insights on the book (which you'll always be giving when you summarize for someone, if only because of what you personally pick out as important!)

[Adunauriel]

I'm actually reading The Two Towers now. I'm to Chapter 9 Flotsam & Jetsam, So I'm about half way through...I'd be happy to chat about it with anyone who wants to.....;)

[Ithielnor]

I've already re-read the TT (actually the entire thing :grin: couldn't resist), but I'd be glad to read other peoples views and comments, and maybe post myself some times. It's a good idea, btw:thumbs:

Edit: I just relised I voted wrong, I did not mean to chose 'I never read .....' if there is a mod out there, could you please change my vote too the first one? I chose the bottom choice. Thanks. Really sorry for the inconvenience :blush:

[Sharky]

I started thumbing through TTT on the weekend checking the odd fact or two, this sounds like a good idea to me.

[Miruvor]

OK then. It doesn't matter if you read along or already finished or jump ahead. I will just put this schedule down assigning a certain day to discuss or comment on each chapter. (Actually, I've already read 4 chapters myself, but I expect there will be days I will not read any.
So here is the schedule. Welcome back to all of you with any comment on the current CHAPTER OF THE DAY. Even if it's just "Aww, isn't Pippin cute!"
Or hopes for the movie version, etc.

Mon. Nov. 25 - Chapter 1
Tue. Nov. 26 - Chapter 2
Wed. Nov. 27 – Chapter3
Thurs. Nov. 28 - Chapter 4
Fri. Nov. 29 - Chapter 5
Sat. Dec. 30 - Chapter 6
Sun. Dec. 1 - Chapter 7
Mon. Dec. 2 - Chapter 8
Tue. Dec. 3 - Chapter 9
Wed. Dec. 4 - Chapter 10
Thurs. Dec. 5 - Chapter 11
Fri. Dec. 6 - Chapter 12
Sat. Dec. 7 - Chapter 13
Sun. Dec. 8 - Chapter 14
Mon. Dec. 9 - Chapter 15
Tue. Dec. 10 - Chapter 16
Wed. Dec. 11 - Chapter 17
Thurs. Dec. 12 - Chapter 18
Fri. Dec. 13 - Chapter 19
Sat. Dec. 14 - Chapter 20
Sun. Dec. 15 - Chapter 21

:thumbs: :read:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

hey Miruvor... its a good idea, i know things like this are really popular on some other sites. i'll post comments if i have any, but i have ttt like memorized lol.... anyway once youve read it, we can start the lay, so thats all good :grin:

lol

[Miruvor]

Thanks Tar.

OK, CHAPTER 1 - comments from Miruvor:
This chapter was essentially in the last movie, so it's interesting to compare.

Hump. Aragorn never fought any ORCs. Boromir was a mile away when he encountered the Orc band.
Aragorn was too busy making bad decisions.
"Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amis."
They made a bier to carry Boromir back to the boats.
They sang that nice song to see him off over Rauros.
They debated whether the S.......rune on the Orc helmets was for Sauron or Saruman.
The label "The Three Hunters" they applied to themselves in this chapter.

[Adunauriel]

In the Book at The Departure of Boromir, most of the fighting against the Orcs,and Uruk-Hai (well there not called that in the book). It's talked about, I mean Legolas & Gimli show up and say they fought them.... I just liked how they showed the fighting in the movie better..... In the movie they all were involved. In the book it was second, or third hand.....;)

[Sharky]

Originally posted by Miruvor
They sang that nice song to see him off over Rauros.


I've always wondered why Gimili didn't get a verse. The song is to the 4 winds, and they won't sing to the East wind for obvious reasons, yet Gimli doesn't get a turn at one of the 3 verses sung.

[Adunauriel]

All I can say, is maybe he didn't know the words......lol ;)

[Miruvor]

I know! I guess Aragorn is more of a songster than a fighter, he hogged two whole verses.
I am kind of glad he fought in the movie though!

[Mirkgirl]

Good idea, I haven't read the books in a while... I don't have the time right now, but I'll skip through the chapters nevertheless.

I like the way Tolkien wrote the first chapter, it's aim was to reveal more of Frodo's Sam's Boromir's and Aragorn's characters, not to tell about a fight with the orc. The movie... well yes I liked how it was done, but that's another art, another ways of expressing things.

About the songs... IMO Aragorn was the one to sing because the loss of Boromir meant a lot more to him. But he had to catch his breath and it's hard to shut up an elf when it comes to singing lol

About Aragorn's decisions you can check this thread - Aragorn's choices (http://warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1313)

[Miruvor]

Wow, that was an intensve study. I personally like seeing him be honest with himself - eveyone does have their ups and downs, ya know. If he isn't self deluding in the cases where his confidence is sagging, then we can more surely believe him in all other aspects of his life.
Which brings us to CHAPTER 2:

Aragorn introducing himself with Anduril, as the Heir of Isuldir:
"Here is the sword that was broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!"
(The Aragorn we all know and love!)

- The Grey cloaks hidding them on the hillside as the riders go by.
- The Circling of the Rohirrim around them.
- Gimli's defense of Galadriel, and Legolas' defense of Gimli to Eomer:
"He stands not alone! You would die before your stroke fell"
- First mention of SF (you know ....... the horse.)

I suspect much of this will not be heard in the movie ....... what a shame. Glorious stuff.

:thumbs:

[Catz]

hey.....just to waylay your thread for a mo Miruvor.....have you guys considered doing this as a set topic chat?...i just thought it might be nice to do it as a real time discussion.......pm me with your opinions ok...........ill give you your thread back now Mir.....thnks;) lol
:catz:

[Adunauriel]

I liked this chapter, but found it to be a little boreing... I did enjoy some of it. I liked the part where Gimli defended Galadriel, and then Legolas had to defend him... There were just some other parts where it seemed eo drag... IMO.....;)

[Sharky]

I wouldn't go as far as to say its boring, but admittedly some of the suspence is taken out when you know whats going to happen.

I remember the first time I read this and it was quite exciting with the deeds of the three friends as they try and work out the puzzle of what has happened to the orcs & hobbits while following the trail. Why did some orcs go north ? Why were they fighting ? How did a hobbit come to lose his brooch ? Why didn't the Riders of Rohan find the hobbits ? Was that Saruman that Gimli saw ? It also introduces the Riders of Rohan, and the first mention of Ents, but we don't know what they are yet, cut no living wood.

This chapter leaves many questions unanswered, and creates an interesting riddle. In a way it sets the stage for the rest of book 3 because at this point all we have are guesses, the rest of the book gives us the answers.

[Adunauriel]

Well ok, maybe I shouldn't have said Boreing, but it seemed to drag at points... I seemed to figure thing out in my head, and wounder why they didn't figure them out as well.... I loved all the stuff that happened with the riders. That for me was some of the coolest stuff... I was actually stumped when Gimli first saw what they later found out was Saruman.. I thought it was Gandalf, so that part left me surprised when he finally came back... Some other parts thou left me thinking ok, hurry up...;)

[Orkybash]

It's odd how Tolkien kinda hinted that it was Gandalf, then said "Haha, tricked you! It's Saruman after all!" Kinda made me a little PO'ed...

[Miruvor]

That was clever - humm, hat? No Hat?, Grey cloak, white cloak? Hood, no hood,?

Anyway, today is CHAPTER 3 The Uruk Hai !

Love those Orc names – Grishnâkh, Uglúk, Lugdush and Snaga.
And the way they talk. Tolkien was a wiz at creating vile sounding talk, without having to use any vulgar language. I bet Roddenberry and Berman were giving a nod to JRRT when they created Klingon Speech.

My quintessential lines from this chapter are:

Pippin:
…a nuisance, a passenger, a piece of luggage. And now I have been stolen and am a piece of luggage for the orcs. (He is so funny!)

Uglúk:
We are the Fighting Uruk Hai! We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand, the Hand that gives us man’s-flesh to eat. I am Uglúk, I have spoken.

And, I thought it was so cute that Merry and Pippin called each other Master Took and Master Brandybuck while congratulating them selves on their wit to escape.

TTT is interesting in that each chapter seems to be a separate story in itself - Independent of those adjacent.
Also liked how realistically described it is. Makes you feel like you were right within the orc band watching.


:Orc: :Orc: :Orc: :Orc: :Orc: :archer: (Eomer)

[Adunauriel]

To me chapter 3 is where the action started happeneing. You found out some of the little secrets that were in your head from chapter 2... The orcs were really interesting here. You found out things about how the acted together. It was very interesting to learn that they weren't as dumb as I thought they were... Well, some of them were...;) lol

[Sharky]

We also start to see the maturing of Pippin, he cuts the rope on his wrists with the blade of a fallen orc, he leaves the brooch for Strider to find, and he orchestrates their escape with suggestive hints to Grishnakh, gollum.

Despite his self doubt as "a nuisance, a passenger, a piece of luggage" he's actually the hero of the chapter.

[Adunauriel]

You are so right Sharky, Pippin is the Hero of Chapter 3....;)

[Miruvor]

Oops. Tried to squeeze this post in 5 minutes before midnight, but couldn't get dialed in. Oh well, it's late:

CHAPTER 4 - TREEBEARD. Well, what can I say here. A Tolkien icon. An excellent chapter for tree lovers, but I thought the Entmoot dragged a bit much. I loved the description of Wellinghall. I thought it would be an idyllic hideout or hidden play space for a kid. (Me as a kid, I mean) Oh, yes, the elvish song to the Entwives is one of my favorites of the poetry.

[Adunauriel]

Absoulutely beautiful chapter, but yes the Entmooth did drag a little... Just one question... Can anybody tell me where I could get some of that drink? You know which one... Cause I wouldn't mind getting a little taller, just like Pippin & Merry did from drinking it..... ;)

[Miruvor]

uhh....... Spring water with a couple of drops of Miracle-Gro added?
roflmao ;)

[Sharky]

Time zone and time constraint will make it hard to reply in length, but I do wonder...how can treebeard lie down if he can't bend ? An interesting one for the film makers.

[Adunauriel]

He could bend a little, just not enought to sit. Here's a Quote from the Book...On the right side of the bay there was a great bed on low legs, not more then a couple feet high. Treebeard lowered himself slowly onto this (with only the slightest sign of bending at his middle), until he lay at full length, with his arms behind his head, lookin up at the ceiling upon which lights were flickering, like the play of leaves in the sunshine. I hope this is helpful....;)

[Miruvor]

One more comment before leaving Chapter 4.
I see Fangorn forest as representing any Old Growth Forest in our own world, and the Entwives as representing the more cultivated areas, Orchards, gardens, small rural farms, on which the ‘industrials’, since Tolkien’s time, have encroached and decimated. Isengard represents those industrials and big business, and Saruman, the callous leader of them, now clear cutting and moving into the Old Growth areas felling trees at an unsustainable rate to prop up the ‘industrials’ profits.

Coincidentally, here is a headline from Yesterday’s NY Times – the same day as our story fell on Chapter 4.
“Bush Plan Gives More Discretion to Forest Managers on Logging

The Bush administration proposed to give forest managers
more discretion to approve commercial activities with less
evaluation of potential environmental damage.”


(Out of the hands of ‘We the People’ and into the hands of individuals who can easily be primed and promoted by logging companies)
Thank Goodness I lived in a time when I was able to drive through miles and miles of Sequoia forests (with 300 year old trees), or Douglas Fir forests farther north on the west coast. I was able to camp in thousand year old, Old Growth stands and feel like I was in Hansel and Gretel’s forest. I can treasure the memory of these gifts from God, because within 50 years, they will be just memories.
mecry

[Adunauriel]

I fell luckier to be alive now as well.. 50 years down the road, people might finally understand what they'll be missing. Then again they probably wont....:(

[Sharky]

I'm glad that here in Australia we have a strong Green movement with representation in all State & Federal Governments. They do keep the governments on the straight & narrow and some good environmental legislation has been passed as a result.

Having said that, we still chop down too much old-growth forest here as well. :rolleyes:

[Adunauriel]

I think it's a epidemic all around the world... Part of me say well we need the wood for making paper, and building things... Then another part of me says, can't we just make alternatives more available, and cheaper.... It's something to thing on, I guess... Not now thou, cause it's time to get back to the book....;)

[Ithielnor]

um yeah, we entirely missed chap 5 and today is chap 6 but let's see if I can get up something about 5--

Chapter 5, The White Rider.
Here we start to see the three hunters discover the answers to their riddles which were answered for the reader in chapters 3 and 4. They continue their search for the hobbits which leads them in to Fangorn following the exact footsteps (though they didn't know it) of Merry and Pippin. The climax of this chapter is the meeting with Gandalf, now The White, who gives them messages from Galadriel and also tells them as much of his story as possible. It ends with all four of them traveling to Edoras.

My lines---
-'It is old, very old, so old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.' ~ Legolas
-'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it.' ~ Gimli
-'My name, have you not guessed it already? You have heard it before, I think. Yes, you have heard it before.' ~ Old Man
-'What? In riddles? No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to.' ~ Gandalf
-'The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him.' ~ Aragorn


ok, so comments and chapter six reviews anyone?

[Miruvor]

Great selections of special lines, Ithielnor. Sorry I got behind but have caught up my reading now. (I'll put in my comments on chapters 5 & 6 - we'll have to overlap here for a day)
:mmmm:
CHAPTER 5 – The White Rider.

AKA, Gandalf returns!
Oh, lets see. Been too many readings to be taken in by the surprise, but it’s fun to remember back on the first reading and re-experience the thrill.
Although it did take me until this time, to visualize clearly, the story of Gandalf and the Balrog. It does seem to me that Gandalf crossed over to the spirit side and was sent back by the Valar but almost as a baby whose physical form was speeded up to get back to his aged look.
“Naked I was sent back….I was alone, forgotten, without escape on the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumor of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song of the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone.
(Sort of a speeded up film of history and evolution bringing him back to the present and his true age.)

I loved Gandalf giving Gimli his message from Galadriel (Lockbearer…have a care to lay thine axe to the right tree!) and his joyous dancing around swinging his axe. Then the parallel in his next line: “Since Gandalf’s head is now sacred, let us find one that is right to cleave!”
:grin:

CHAPTER 6 – The King of the Golden Hall
(I always want to say “The Hall of the Mountain King” he, he.)

Loved that humor when they were reluctant to lay down their weapons at the door!
Boy, Grima seems to me on this reading, a much viler villian than I remember. But that’s because, now I have a vivid picture in my mind from the trailers. Can’t wait for the movie! Gandalf’s banter and timing with him is perfect. I also tried to focus on every detail of Eowyn, in preparation for the movie.
(not very profound - sorry)
:blush:
P.S. Oh, yea, I am reminded that it's Aragorn who says that poem of 'Eorl the Young', that we know Theoden recites in the movie trailer.

[Adunauriel]

I think for me, having seen the Trailer before reading the book, made it alot easier for me to see Wormtongue evil.... I totally agreed with Aragorn about laying down his sword. I was actually getting angry while reading it.... I just loved that threat he gave the guard..Slowly Aragorn unbuckled his belt and himself set his sword upright against the wall. "Here I set it,' he said; 'but I command you not to touch it, nor to permit any other to lay hand on it. In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."

[Ithielnor]

I think this gives a pretty good idea of what Grima was
Hama
Here, lord, is Harugrim, your ancient blade, it was found in his chest. Loth was he to render up the keys. Many other things are there which men have missed.

or

Gandalf
How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her footsteps.
quite a dirty fellow eh? and thats just some of the things!

[Sharky]

I wonder how PJ is going to do the into of Gandalf the White ? Three friends run into Gandalf after a few months yet they don't recognise him by either sight or sound. Tolkien can get away with this using the written word because we don't see or hear Gandalf, but in a media where both sight & sound are important, how can it be done without appearing cheesy ?

[Adunauriel]

One of the two trailers at the Official site shows it, well they both show it. But I believe the Theater trailer shows the return of Gandalf best. It's pretty cool, you should check it out.

[Sharky]

Adunauriel, I'm deliberately avoiding the trailers, I watch too many for FotR and it spoilt a bit of the surprise. :( I won't be reading the reviews either, I may have to impose a total web site ban from the 18th to the 26th of December. ;)

[Adunauriel]

Well I'm sorry Sharky, I didn't know of your self imposed avoidance of trailers... I will tell you this, the way it shows it happening in them. Well, it's just too cool, I'm sure you'll enjoy it......;)

[Miruvor]

Oh wow, everybody almost passed right by the Helm's Deep chapter!

CHAPTER 7 – Helm’s Deep.

Excellent writing for a battle – Short, sweet and succinct, but with all the thrilling elements intact.

Aside from the orc killing contest of Gimli and Legolas, I best liked the exact detail, minute by minute, culminating in the scene of Gandalf showing up at the last minute to save the day (With Erkenbrand)! His coming over the ridge all in white with the sun lighting him up makes me think of a picture just like that in the trailer. Hope that’s it.

Another passage made me think of the Israel / Palestine conflict. (Everything old is new again.):

(Upon seeing and hearing the men of Dunland, stirred up by Saruman)
Hark! They hate us, and they are glad; for our doom seems certain to them. ‘The king, the king!’ they cry. ‘We will take their king. Death to the Forgoil! Death to the strawheads! Death to the robbers of the North!’ Such names they have for us. Not in half a thousand years have they forgotten their grievance that the lords of Gondor gave the Mark to Eorl the Young and made alliance with him.

(Just replace Gondor with USA and the Mark with Israel.)

[Adunauriel]

What can be said about this chapter, except pure action... Loved every moment of this chapter, I was completely riveted......;) :thumbs:

[Sharky]

Love the bit where the finally ride out of the Deep to the sound of the horns, "Forth Eorlingas !"

Reading this chapter has increased by level of excitement for the movie ten-fold. :p

[Miruvor]

CHAPTER 8 - The Road to Isengard

A transistion chapter. I just skim through this chapter except for the end when Merry and Pippin greet Theoden at the fallen gates. That is pretty rousing! And the three hunter's reactions to them. It's great how Tolkien could pull all the parts together and sweep you up in emotional meetings, as he does several times.:loveyou: :cuddles: :cuddles: :stomper: :whoohoo:

[Sharky]

My favourite bit in this chapter is between Legolas & Gimli when riding through the Hourns after the battle, Legolas talks about the trees and Fangorn, Gimli talks about the glittering caves fo Helms Deep...

'"Would you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the spring-time for fire-wood ? We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap - a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day - so we could work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways, and display the chambers that are still dark, glimsped only as a void beyond fissures in rock. And lights, Legolas !"

I'll stop quoting there, I just love the passion Gimli feels and shows for the rocks and caves.. tend these glades of flowering stone...what a brilliant line ! Anyway, this is also where we have Gimli and Legolas make their pact that seals their friendship (IMO).

'Come! let us make this bargain - if we both return safe out of the perils that await us, we will journey for a while together. You shall visit Fangorn with me, and then I will come with you to Helm's Deep.'

I love this exchange between Legolas & Gimli. :grin: :thumbs:

[Adunauriel]

I too Loved that whole part between Legolas & Gimli. The passion they both showed made me wish I could be there to see it with them also......;) I also imencely enjoyed it once they got to Isengard, Pippin & Merry were so sweet....:)

[Miruvor]

CHAPTER 9 – Flotsam and Jetsam (The very first time I read TTT, I had to look up these words, as I was unfamiliar with them.)

A respite chapter – smoking, eating and storytelling. Pippin catches us up on the happenings with the fall of Isengard, while the Helm’s Deep conflict was going on. Which I hear will not be this second hand telling in the movie. I realize also that most of the visual descriptions of Isengard which PJ brought to the screen, (like the smooth obsidian-like stone of the tower and the crevasses and underground machinery) come from this chapter.
I guess it is pleasant to sit back and enjoy the camaraderie, the spoils of war and the ending of it all -- as probably most military participants know from real life.

[Sharky]

Not really much to comment on here, it really is a story telling chapter, although at the end we get a hint that all's not well in the Shire. I wonder if PJ will mention that the pipe weed in Isengard came from the Shire ? Probably not if the Scouring is out. mecry

[Adunauriel]

I think it will be interesting to see how PJ deals with the Pipe weed story.... Beyond this, I enjoyed this whole chapter....;)

[Miruvor]

Ooops, catching up again.

CHAPTERS 10 and 11 The Voice of Saruman / The Palantir

I LOVE these two chapters! This is the kind of thing I prefer over battle scenes. Tolkien must have been at his peak in his talent of word-crafting, when he was writing these two.
The wit and beauty of all the dialog and the perfect prose and story construction is a thrill a minute to read. No sense giving examples – all of it is an example.
Also these are great chapters for catching up on Middle Earth History. Gandalf not only ‘opened up’ to Pippin, but to the readers also.

Saruman stays a politician to the end. And I STILL can’t get past comparing Saruman to GW Bush. “The treacherous are always distrustful.” Also, in his use of words to manipulate hearts and minds – like Axis of Evil – but ‘often does hatred hurt itself’ (and it’s own country methinks). But I guess some might compare Saruman to Suddam, also, hiding out in his tower and communicating with Al Queda in some unknown way.
At least Gandalf had mercy and was looking for PROOF, rather than squashing Saruman in his tower based on paranoid hunches.

“The Palantir” was another showcase chapter for Pippin. It was a perfect chance to let Pippin carry the story for a bit. This chapter alone gives good excuse for having the ‘extra’ Hobbits along on the trip -- the ‘rag-tag’ at Gandalf’s tail (that was so cute when Merry brought it up). It was like a beautiful balance of extremes, to have the ‘smallest’ vying with the ‘darkest’ in the seeing stone.

My favorite culminating bit, I think, is the humor brought in here:
“Mercy,” cried Gandalf. “If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?”
“The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,” laughed Pippin. “Of course! What less?”

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :naughty: :thumbs:

P.S. I think PJ is awfully foolish to leave this great stuff out of the movie. maybe he was just frustrated that he couldn't write it better.
Also, I realise in this reading that Saruman was implied to have more of a connection with Sauron at the beginning, than I thought, so PJ's portrayal in FOTR was close.

[Algamesh]

Miruvor,

I don't know if you are aware but at my personal site, we are running a Two Towers Literary Study. It began in early Oct. and will wrap up about the time the movie is released. You may want to drop by and look it over as an additional resource. I'll go ahead and post the addy here ... just go under the TR Forums link and visit the "Two Towers Study" forum.

http://groups.msn.com/tolkiensring/

I think you're idea is wonderful ... any efforts to get people reading need to be applauded!

[Miruvor]

Thanks Algamesh. I read through quite a bit of it, but left some for later. You have some very studious participants there. Too bad I didn't get in at the beginning. I will look in and read more as I go along with my reading. (Still have all of Book 4 to get thru in the next 10 days. )

[Adunauriel]

These two chapters are among the greatest of the book, IMO... They truely had me from start to finish.... I loved it when they got the Palantir, and pippin picked it up.. Gandalf getting angry with him yet again, and then during the night when pippin looked onto it... That was some of the coolest stuff... Oh, I loved it when Gandalf broke Sarumans staff.... Such a fitting choice IMO...;)

[Miruvor]

BOOK 4 – CHAPTER 1 - The Taming of Smeagol

This is the chapter where the 3 characters begin to develop and change. A turning point for all. Frodo becomes more authoritative. Sam’s personality really comes out, and Gollum gets a split personality.
More great character identifying dialog. Just love Sam’s chatter and new words used, like numbskull, ninnyhammer and noodles. (I think I'll start using those last two in my own speech.)

Also love Tolkien’s vivid description of the storms, cliffs, the glowing rope and Gollum climbing down the cliff in the moonlight.

I personally like this line:
Frodo: Night will be on us soon. How beautiful the stars are, and the moon!
Sam: They do cheer the heart, don’t they? Elvish they are, somehow.

:elfqueen:

[Adunauriel]

I loved the discription of the area they were in.... It made me glad that I wasn't ther, but in some ways it felt like I was... This chapter was totally cool.. It was kind of cool how Smeagol couldn't stand haveing the Elvish rope tied to his ancle.. It was like it burned him, or something... The only confuseing thing to me at first was realizing that Book 4 took place at the same time as Book 3. It took me awhile to keep the timeline straight in my mind...;)

[Miruvor]

That is cool isn't it. I always thought if someone could chart the phases of the moon and times of days and nights mentioned, and which nazgul was flying around where and how the dark cloud of Mordor spread, in addition to tracking the days that are mentioned, that a time line could be made. (More detailed than the appendix). I have been too lazy to try it myself, but often wondered when might the different members of the fellowship be looking on the same moon at the same time, perhaps?

[Miruvor]

Uh, Oh. Forced to double post.

Book 4 - CHAPTER 2 - The Passage of the Marshes.

Ooooo. The creepy pools with the dead faces and candles. What an image. It's interesting to see another convergence here, with the hobbits crossing over the very grounds where the great battle of the prologue took place.

This chapter is really kind of funny. Gollum is just a funny guy.
It's nice to hear the full version of the fish riddle repeated, and also Gollum's reference to that OTHER Baggins, who stole IT. Who found it and said nothing, nothing.
That full page where Gollum is having a conversation with himself while Frodo is sleeping and Sam is eavsdropping, is just delightful. He also first mentions 'She', which I didn't remember from before.

:mmmm: :evil: :angry:

[Orkybash]

I love Gollum's little song! Not one of the best poems in LotR, but one of the cutest!

BTW, I heard that some of the descriptions of the moon are actually impossible with our current understanding of the way it works, though i couldn't pull out any specifics. But who knows how differently the sun and moon worked in the third age? :)

[Ithielnor]

AHHH........Gollum!!!!
great guy :p

that fish song was really ¿cute? for lack of a better word. I also like the way Gollum reacts to the elvish lembas, and Frodo's implicate(sp?) trust in him.

Some good lines:
~Gollum: "Yes, yes, and Sam stinks! Poor Smeagol smells it, but good Smeagol bears it. Helps nice master."
~Sam: "This waybread keeps you on your legs in a wonderful way, though it doesn't satisfy the innards proper.....meaning no disresped to them that made it.
~Gollum: "Yes, yes, to help the master: the master of the Precious. But if we were master then we could help ourselfs, yes, and still keep promise."

[Adunauriel]

I felt so bad for Sam & Frodo... They couldn't see where they were going, and poor Sam fell into one of the pools... It really had to suck. I was totally glad it wasn't me through out this chapter.... ;)

[Miruvor]

Book 4 CHAPTER 3 – The Black Gate is Closed.

Gollum: “No use that way!…Don’t Take the Precious to Him! He’ll eat us all, if He gets it, eat all the world.”
lol
Frodo: “You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. ‘Give it back to Smeagol’ you said. Do not say that again! …You will never get it back! (Through to the end of the paragraph. - If I were comand you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice…. And such would be my command.)
Frodo really shows he and the ring are becoming one and causes Gollum to grovel in fear. This is an excellent scene. I hope it’s in the movie.
:nono: notworthy
Sam: Aww, we get to hear Sam recite the Oliphant poem here. So classic! And the innocence when he asks Gollum if there are any Oliphants. (‘No, no oliphants. What are oliphants?’ said Gollum)
:jester:

And so, on to plan B.

[Adunauriel]

This was a very good chapter. It really made apparent to me the ring begining to overtake Frodo... Poor Sam I really felt for him, and his deep untrust of Gollum. I couldn't blame him one bit either....;)

[Mirkgirl]

hasn't been able to post again... I'll try to take his place with my humble observations over Book 4 Chapter 4 "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" (mmmm it's about lunch time here :p.... well back on topic)

He [Gollum] set his two large flat hands on his shrunken belly, and a pale green light came into his eyes.I just love those descriptions of Gollum... maybe that's just me, but I had to share :)

The surrounding around the characters becomes more and more beautiful, untouched you'd say as the "land that had only been for a few years under the dominion of the Dark Lord and was not yet fallen wholly into decay"...
Air and smelling are used a lot in the text, probably to explain the Gollum senses, which the hobbits were said to develop.
Attention to the master work of the ancients as well.

Interesting moment, hinting about mythology: Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.

The thing that makes Sam become "forgetful for the moment of Mordor" is the lake... opposed to the fire that charred the broken bones and skulls, which brings him back to the reality. But even here the magic, the good power of the place is stronger – The swift growth of the wild with briar and eglantine and trailing clematis was already drawing a veil over this place of dreadful feast and slaughter; but it was not ancient. As if no evil can win in this place.

Mmmm can’t think of another use of the rabbits – just to tell a bit more about the habits of the hobbits…. and how Gollum cannot understand them (taters lol)

Faramir goes without two men, when it’s time for war and he has a shortage of men, because the other way is to kill the hobbits… Frodo proves that he can be gentle not only by elven, but by men standard as well lol (“May the light shine on your swords!” vs “a star shines on the hour of our meeting” Faramir vs Gildor?)

A glimpse upon Faramir’s fate He[Faramir] leads now in all perilous ventures. But his life is charmed, or fate spares him for some other end.

Tolkien’s view for war… guess that’s what he thought during his first battle: It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.

Mmm Elven-tongue now this “- May the Valar turn him aside! Mumak! Mumak!” interesting folk indeed

Oliphaunts… what to say… a grand animal… and Tolkien is good with animals as we can say (spiders shiver)

Well that’s it… I’m sorry I didn’t have much time (-:

[Adunauriel]

I think you've sumed up this chapter beautifuly. I'm not sure there's anything I ould add, so I wont....;) Oh, well I could say that I loved this chapter, the description of the land was beautiful. I felt like I was there yet again...;)

[Miruvor]

BOOK 4 – CHAPTER 4

:thumbs: Thanks Mirkgirl for covering for me. While caught up in reading Tolkien, (Yes I HAVE been reading, if not posting), I just didn’t feel like getting onto the internet for awhile.

All I need to add to what the rest of you noted on Chapter 4 was how transported I was by the descriptions of the neglected garden atmosphere. You could almost smell the herbs, pine needles and the crushed grass beneath their feet. It was like waking up from a bad dream after the dead marshes and the Morannon.
And the ending! The excitement of Sam seeing the Oliphant and then dropping down for a nap. Like he was saying “Wow, I have experienced ecstacy – you can let me die now, and I’ll be happy!”

BOOK 4 – CHAPTER 5 - Window on the West.

This was always one of my most memorable chapters. The view of the sunset through the waterfall curtain (and later the moon) was vivid to me. And Sam forgetting himself and giving away the ring, and Frodo’s shock! I wish this would be in the movie, but from Fatty’s review, I guess it won’t.
There is a great lot of historical background and catch-up here, which is great.
I think the ending is so profound, when Frodo sways with abandon, and Faramir sweeps him up and carries him to the bed. Then Sam says “You took your chance sir…Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest!” This is so exquisite.

BOOK 4 - CHAPTER 6 - The Forbidden Pool

Great imaging of Gollum’s fishing in the moonlight, unaware of his danger. And Frodo’s Tricksey-ness!

But the best part is the dear, but formal good byes at the end. A great friendship and bond was made so quickly and ending too soon. It was like one of those “ships that pass in the night” experiences that are so memorable and bittersweet.
mecry
BOOK 4 - CHAPTER 7 - Journey to the Crossroads.

Faramir departs.
The three trudge on to the Crossroads in the circle of trees where they see the last light strike the fallen king’s head, before total darkness. This IS a crossroads in a way - because of the upcoming war starting in the ROTK, with the covering of the dark cloud.
And for the Hobbits, it’s like their choice is now a done deal, and their path now is one that can no longer be put off.
;)
I am now half way into the next chapter, so pretty much on schedule. Only 3 more days and 3 more chapters left! – but great ones. You can all feel free to jump in any time you like.
:thumbs:
(Mirkgirl! One of the students renting a room at my house is from Bulgaria!)

[Ithielnor]

chapter 5, one of my all time favs. As you can see I'm located at that cave :grin: some more really good descriptions by Tolkien in this ch. alxo the "Council of Faramir" is in this chapter and here we see his wisdom displayed in his choices and decisions.

[Adunauriel]

Well to encompass all the chapter 4-7. I loved all of them, I enjoyed reading about Faramir. He seemed so different from Boromir, I was endeared to him almost from the begining... I liked how he could distance himself from the ring. I felt a strangth in him... I knew he'd be good to Frodo & Sam....;)

[Miruvor]

BOOK 4 - CHAPTER 8 - The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
Frodo does his funny “crazy” scene at the bridge to Minas Morgul, and later they watch the eerie exit of the Nazgul King and his hordes from the gate, with Frodo’s reminisce of the old wound he received at Weathertop. (Another criss-cross of paths.)

But the main crux of this chapter is the sublime intimacy of the scene while Sam and Frodo are resting near the top and they talk about whether they will be in the legends of the ages and how, having the light of Elendil, already places them in an on-going story, and Frodo’s laugh at Sam’s funny conversation.
Then, while Frodo is sleeping in Sam’s lap with Sam’s hand on his brow, Smeagol comes up to them and almost repents and changes his mind about betraying them, and touches Frodo’s knee. But Sam’s harsh word’s about ‘sneaking’ throws him back into his Gollum personality and his chance for redemption is lost.
God, this is great stuff. I saw the excerpt from a Tolkien letter, where JRRT states that this is the moral highlight of the book in his opinion. :angel:

[Adunauriel]

I felt bad for Sam, and his inability to understand about Gollum. I think thou I would have been the same way.. Gollum was really hard to trust, especially after reading what he did to get the ring in the first place... I think thou if Sam hadn't of been so tired he probably wouldn't have been so harsh with gollum. but, it's the way it had to be.... ;)

[Miruvor]

:whoohoo: I'm DONE!

I finished up the last two chapters this morning. :grin:

BOOK 4 - CHAPTER 9 - Shelob's Lair
BOOK 4 - CHAPTER 10 - The Choices of Master Samwise.

I'm not going to separate these two, because in tone, build-up, action and excitement, they kind of flow right together.

These are the scariest, saddest, most exciting and most surprising chapter's of this book. PJ really missed his chance to incorporate these scenes into an outrageously perfect cliff-hanger. What a teaser that would have been for getting people to come back for the next movie, and to leave them emotionally exhasted at the end of this one. Though, maybe he knows that this is one part where a movie version couldn't possibly stand up to the reading word for word.

Well, you all know what happened, so I don't plan on giving out any spoilers on these chapters, for any wayward person here who hasn't read the books to see.

Any more comment? After that, we're done! :thumbs:

2 1/2 more days until the movie! :whoohoo:

[Adunauriel]

Two of the best Chapter, I couldn't stop reading... I was so enthralled, that they led me right into RotK, and I finished reading it in a day.... But these two chapters were filled with some of the Best descriptions I've ever read, just Beautiful....;) BTW, aren't they putting Shelob into the third Movie?:)

[Miruvor]

I'm pretty sure they will, but I don't have any inside information. I didn't mean to imply they wouldn't. It could actually be a pretty thrilling start off for the third movie, to do these two chapters -- Then cut to Gondor and leave everyone worring about Frodo's fate for half the movie. That would be WOW!

One thing I'm worried about from Fatty's review is: what motivation does PJ's TTT give for anyone to go to Gondor for the third movie. He is leaving out all the last chapters of Book 3, which gave all the preliminaries and motives for why Gandalf and Pippin, or Theoden and Merry, or even Aragorn cutting thru the Paths of the Dead with his kinsmen should have any pressing reason to go there. I cannot imagine how ROTK will play out after this strange truncation. I guess it will all fall on to Sauron's belief that Frodo and the ring seem to be going there, which is not a big enough reason to start a war. But Aragorn being revealed a a potential King AND possibly having the ring -- this would be a motivation!

[Adunauriel]

Yes, it will be exciting to see how PJ deals with RotK... I'm fairly certain thou, that he's done an excellent job of it... If it's anywhere as good as the first was, and I hope the second will be... I'm sure it will be magnificent...;)

[Miruvor]

I agree Adunauriel.

Thank you all for joining me through The Two Towers. It was fun.

[Adunauriel]

It was completely my pleasure... I was very glad to have someone to discuss the book with. I just wish I could have discussed it better....;)

[Tar-Palantir]

The First was very good, the second was REALLY GOOD, that means IMO that the third will BLOW MY F***** MIND OUT!
;)

[Adunauriel]

So I take it T/P that you've allready seen TTT.. Lucky you, I'm hopeing maybe to see it tomorrow... I'm keeping my fingers crossed....;)