LOTR Racist?

[Legolas]

i hope you all caught this article @ http://film.guardian.co.uk/lordoftherings/news/0,11016,852217,00.html

personally, it sickens me when liberal pukes like this guy consistently over-analyze EVERYTHING into a social commentary. it's pathetic what people will do to make a name for themselves.

i e-mailed this man to let him know my thoughts, i suggest you do the same johnyatt@yahoo.com

[Sam_the_Stouthearted]

I found that article disturbing as well but It is very superficial and the author shows no real deep knowledge of LOTR. Below is a link to an excellent counterpoint from TORN. Check it out, its a great read and will give you good ammunition incase you ever come face to face with someone claiming Tolkien is a racist.

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/files/040101.html

[Lynx]

:evilcool: Oh I did write something. It made me mad too. People read too much into things when they make accusations like that.

[Sam_the_Stouthearted]

I would have to say that person wasn't reading into things enough.

[Lynx]

yeah. you can look at it that way. It depends on the person though. Some people go into things, reading or otherwise, looking for something to complain about. The others are usually ignorant and don't know the meaning of what they've read. Or at least thats my opinion of people like that.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

That someone should think Tolkien racist is so stupid I don't even know why I'm posting this!:rolleyes:

[Lady Melody]

Well... the book isn't, as far as I am concerned... but the presentation in the movies are the ones that I worry more about.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

I did wonder why, as someone in here formerly said, all the orcs are cockneys? That is...shall we say...showing a degraded view of this dialect, since the orcs are, well...not the kindest of species! I find similar blunders in norwegian dubbings, of f.ex. "Free Willy", where all the bad guys, (the whalers), speak a northern norwegian dialect. Are the dialects of the world that are termed, I don't know how to say this in english, but up here we call them broad, (is that correct?), destined to be foul and less worth than other tounges?

This doesn't really bother me much, as I really feel that languages or dialects, like peoples appearances, grow on you once you get to know it. I'm not worried that the viewers of the world are gonna think all who speak cockney are villains. Allthough falling into that trap when your a director isn't so good, I think it shows that this hasn't been thought properly through.

Going to see it again soon, looking enormously forward to it! It is magnificent, I find no other word!

[Iorlas]

Come on everyone, give that article writer a little break. What he's saying isn't too far from most truths. First, let's remember that Tolkien lived in the early half of the 20th Century. A whole lot of people back (not to be mean but for the sake of this argument: white people) then were racist, maybe not pure but still had a general attitude of racism. So you can't altogether blame a dead guy for writing racist material in a racist society.

As for his books and the movies based on them, I love them! Been reading the trilogy and other Tolkien works for about 8 years. I personally don't care if Professor Tolkien was racist or not, he is gone. I also believe that his works are definitely more than just racism and so deserve the respect of the great many other elements of them.
If his message of racism was as strong as people play it out to be then I would be offended for I am of those ethnicities which are targeted. Yet I am not offended for I truly do believe that Tolkien's books are more than this element that was a product of society.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Very true indeed!:thumbs: But then again if all people that wrote about or comented on this material understood this, then noone would feel that the comments were unfair or untrue! The problem is that some don't take the time to do that, and as a result their remarks sometimes are just a teensybit shallow!

[Lessa]

Lets get this straight racism is not just a white thing every person in the world is capable of racism. There are black people who live in this country who don't like other blacks because the degree of black is not quite as it should be. There are people who originate from the subcontinent who don't like others from a different region of the same country who are racist. There are Scots who hate the English and English who hate the Scots. In every region of the planet people don't like people who may be strangers to their family. The only bond for most people is family/clan/tribe for them noone else matters so therefore they are fair game (in their estimation not mine) for whatever comments or action that person wishes to make.
It doesn't matter what Tolkien had or hadn't intended some will interpret it how they wish however ill conceived their views might be.

Lessa

[bab5nutz]

A lot of people still are very racist. In the past ten years or so, a lot of Asian and other non-white people have come to my country, and they have had to face prejudice, from both locals and certain politicians who spin the old yadda yadda about these people taking out jobs, etc.

Just today, I was out walking in a neighbourhood where a lot of refugees from Somalia and Afghanistan live. I saw a couple of Somali women starting to cross the road. At that moment, a car screamed past, slowed down for a second, and a man stuck his head out the window, and shouted a very nasty term of racial abuse. The car then shot off again.

The stupidity and ignorance of many humans never ceases to amaze me. I've got no time for people like that - life is difficult enough without trying to find something/someone to hate.

As for Tolkien being racist - well, after "The Hobbit" was published in 1937, Tolkien was approached by German publishers who were interested in translating and publishing the book in German. However, they also wanted to know if Tolkien had any Jewish ancestry [ironically, Tolkien is a German name]. Tolkien wrote back saying "I don't have the honour of having any of those gifted people among my ancestors." [I'm paraphrasing here!]. He also told his publishers that he didn't want "The Hobbit" published in German, and that Nazi racism was repugnant to him.

It's also interesting to note that two of the three marriages in LOTR are "mixed" marriages. Aragorn marries Arwen an Elven woman. And Faramir, a descendant of the race of Numenor, marries Eowyn from the much shorter-lived race of Rohan. Eowyn even questions Faramir about it, when he proposes. "Would you have your proud folk say of you 'there goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?'"

[Cuiel Rilwen]

That bit about the Hobbit was new to me, and quite interesting too! :) I certainly can understand Tolkiens view on it, from where he was standing. It must have felt good, though, beeing able to strike back, if only verbaly!

[The Yellow Feather]

I have read LOTR dozens of times and love them, but ...have to admit, that I also had these thoughts of racism before. Long before a movie was even thought of. Of course Tolkien did not want The Hobbit to be published in Nazi Germany, but the accusation is not that he was racist against jews. Contrary to the author of the article I did not think of black people either (althuogh Tolkiens years in South Africa might be an argument for that)
I think, that Tolkien rather was influenced by the fear of communist russia, a fear that went through the western world back in the 30's, (no matter if England, USA, Germany, ....)
The dark power rising in the east, threatening freedom represents Russia with its aisan parts and inhabitants ("slant eyes") and communism. A fear that even reunited the west shortly after the second world war.
Tolkiens bad luck is, that he presents a picture, that was strongly used by Nazi Germany. Tall blond warriors, that fight the east to save the world from the underlings ...

But on the other hand ... Tolkiens roots are in northern mythology and LOTR is fiction. Tolkien knew, that the real world was not black and white like in his books ( well, he lived in an academic ivory tower ...) He never intended his books to be a mirror of the real world.

But still ... the pictures and attributes he uses to describe the evil side remind of the language use of (western world, white) racists.

[bab5nutz]

Okay, I know thst Tolkien was born in South Africa. But, he left if when he was what - four - a wee bit young to have set racist attitudes!

[The Yellow Feather]

First of all : I do NOT think that Tolkien was a racist. But in his effort to create a mythology for England he used pictures and attributes to describe the evil side that today remind of racism.

Besides from that : Being three or four, a child has learned and copied much of the behaviour of the grown-ups and the basis for racism could very well be planted this early.

[P.K. Brandybuck]

Originally posted by bab5nutz
As for Tolkien being racist - well, after "The Hobbit" was published in 1937, Tolkien was approached by German publishers who were interested in translating and publishing the book in German. However, they also wanted to know if Tolkien had any Jewish ancestry [ironically, Tolkien is a German name]. Tolkien wrote back saying "I don't have the honour of having any of those gifted people among my ancestors." [I'm paraphrasing here!]. He also told his publishers that he didn't want "The Hobbit" published in German, and that Nazi racism was repugnant to him.


*applause* way to go Tolkein!! you tell them, buddy!!!

[Aerandir]

Man, some people these days take EVERYTHING the wrong way. :rolleyes:


~Aera

[Celebrían]

I haven't read this article about Tolkien being a racist, but if I've heard that argument once, I've heard it a thousand times. Not too long ago there was a LOTR discussion (based first on the book then later on the movie) at the Barnes and Noble in my city. This same question was raised and the gentleman speaking (this guy has his doctorate and knows everything there is to know about Tolkien and LOTR) said that Tolkien himself would have been very suspicious of such an argument, because Tolkein was Catholic (which in England was a minority at that time), whereas the majority of England was Anglican. Seeing that Tolkien himself was in a minority, I REALLY don't think he was a racist. I have found it to be true that those who criticize Tolkein on this point don't know anything about him or his books. They should read them first before making a statement like that .

[Winyaél Greenleaf]

What? Tolkien a racist? Some pple are reading too deep between the lines.

[Gil Galad]

Tolkien wasnt a Racist, yeh sure he did make some of his humans(numenoreans) "beter" than others, but that was because of hte teaching they recieved and where they lived, and then despite all that they got, they turned out to go bad. so i think that he was showin a point of anti-racism here in that no matter where (or who ) u r, ur still in control of ur destiny and capable of fallin from ur place. and as for people hatin others, thats not just racism , when its out of ignorance then yes its racism, but when a Scot (or Whelsh, Indian, native American, native Australian, Mauri, Bohr, African, Irish) dislikes the english because his/her country was raped and pillaged by the english for centuaries then thats not racism

[Shieldmaiden]

Umm...you know, I think Middle Earth was based on a type of ancient Europe. That could be why everyone is...um...white.

[Catz]

ofc it is.........ME was supposed to be a mythology for England.........English natives are white.......thats just the way it is...........to argue about that is to create a situation that doesnt in fact exist
:catz:

[Lessa]

Racism is not just a colour issue more than anything it is a tribal thing. Anyone who is not part of a particular tribe is not to be trusted according to man's history.

Lessa

[Celebrían]

originally posted by Catz

ofc it is.........ME was supposed to be a mythology for England.........English natives are white.......thats just the way it is...........to argue about that is to create a situation that doesnt in fact exist

I couldn't have said it better myself! Amen, Catz! :thumbs:

[Gil Galad]

yeh it wud just be stupid to have all different races mixed as one in a story bout a particular area, so a writer has to amke a choice about the peoples2b present. and sinc the whole point of his writtings was to give england a myth of its own(since all of its mythology is borrowwed from celtic and french origins)thern of course he's gonna make the main characters white