The Count of Monte Cristo

[PrinceImrahil]

Anyone read The Count of Monte Cristo. Its really, really long, but really good. Not including Tolkiens works, it is probably my favorite book. If you haven't read it, you should.

[Mirkgirl]

Great indeed! I love this book, though I cannot say it's my all time fave... if you havesn't read it you really should!

[WinterSoul]

I've read it. Great book. Not my fav but one of the books i really admire.
It is a must to read!

[Charmander]

I found it! I mean the thread... This book is really long, it took me a few months to get through, but well worth it! I liked who Dumas split it up into four sections - it gave far more coherence to the way Dantes progressed through the story.

[Lady Galadriel]

Finally, someone to discuss this book with. I just finished reading it a month ago and it was awesome. It is in my top 5 favorite book. What did you think about the ending Charmander? Mercedes and Edmond? I felt that the Greek was too underdeveloped. I did not warm to her as well as I should have. There were times that Edmond/Cristo scared me and I pitied his victims. This book is excellent at muddling the emotions.

[Charmander]

You know, I was a little more than disappointed that he didn't want to stay with Mercedes - I kind of understand why he didn't, especially after all he had gone through, but it seemed like such a waste. After all that revenge and he still really didn't gain what he had lost. Or that might never have been his intention with the revenge.

Yeah, the greek seemed like an ancillory character that had little to do with anything except exacting revenge on...oh, I can't remember his name - it was the Spanish officer - Morcerf?

[Lady Galadriel]

lol Everytime I think about the love that Edmond and Mercedes shared and how it was taken away from them through no fault of theirs, I could literally cry. I mean, they were so innocent and in love despite the fact that they were kinda poor. Part of me wanted them to end back up together but I understand why Dumas did not put them back together. Too much had occurred to bridge the chasm between them.

Do you think that Mercedes still loved him? I was kinda angry with Mercedes because she should have waited. She was too weak. She knew he was not dead...and she always use to say that she would never marry any one but Edmond. It was to the very beginning of the book that she said it.

As to the greek, you are right. Dumas should have written more about her since she was a "new" character. That book left me feeling kinda unsatisfied. "Love" did not conquer all.

[Charmander]

Maybe the intention was that love had nothing to do with it. I kind of got the notion that the unfortunate incidents that happend to Edmund were not of his own fault, but if he was so religious why did he choose to exact his own revenge? I almost thought that when he started his revenge plot that was the beginning of the end - and then it kind of made sense as to why he was never truly able to go back to what he had.

I agree with you about Mercedes, on the one hand she should have waited, but then I think she found out he actually died - or he was presumed dead - which makes it hard to say that she should have waited. But even then - when she recognized him at the party she could have (and I think they had an encounter, but it wasn't as involving as I might have imagined) done something, like told him that she wanted to wait. And then after he exacts all that revenge he still won't be with her, and I don't get that, her husband is dead - she's a widow, she isn't diseased - I don't think. It just left the ending a little more unhappy than I like - especially after that many pages - although Anna Karenina was also that long and turned out sad too.

I did love the other storyline, with - man, names are really going in my head - the ship builders son and the daughter of, its the legal character...my mind really is a sieve :)!

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, when a man has been betrayed like that, the monster rears its head. Just think about his father starving to death and that alone would drive you mad. Especially since he did nothing to warrant all the woes that befell him. Imagine being confined to a cold dark, dang, dungeon for a crime you did not commit. 14 long years too. That would drive me mad. Then to find out that people who you never had any ill-will toward or never injured, did this to you. It is such a melancholy story.

I wondered why Mercedes never asked him why he was there under the guise of the Count. She knew it was him.

Actually, the author who wrote the introduction in my book said when you peel away everything, it is really a love story...Edmond and Mercedes and Edmond and his dad. Those two were the driving force behind Edmond's revenge.

Oh, and he was religious...although he was twisted. He acknowledged that in the end.

[Charmander]

I don't know how I could block all the wrongs done to him. But if he's so religious, I am pretty sure almost all the major religions teach turning the other cheek - which he obviously did not do. It was almost like by the time he got to Danglars he realized this and gave Danglers the chance to repent. But when you look at the others who were killed or took their own lives - it just seemed even more unfortunate. If anyone deserved to die out of those that betrayed him it should have been Danglars, who orchestrated all the nonsense.

Did you find the "death" of (names escape me) of the girl that Edmund was asked to watch over really Romeo and Juliet? When I read it I was like, she can't really be dead - but then chapter after chapter went by and she didn't awaken, I really thought she was dead - and then - BOOM - she's alive - that kind of tied the happy ending back together for me - at least a little.

[Lady Galadriel]

I know what you mean...but you got to remember that there was only one man who walked the earth who rose above such convictions...like the Scarlet Pimpernel said...

"the word forgiveness has only been spoken once in two thousand years...and then it was spoken by divine lips..."

Edmond is just human...and he was outraged by all that was done to him. (I could talk about this forever lol ) Remember, he was innocent in every way...and he did good...then here comes the selfish actions of strangers to plunge his life into something just short of purgatory. For any of us who has had our freedom we cannot know what it is like to be locked up in a dungeon for 14 years. The torment of mind, the despair, the humiliation endured...there is no way that he could have remained innocent of revenge. Especially since he never harmed anyone. It was almost like he was naive at first. Even the priest told him that. He was transformed from innocence to experience...unfortunately, it was a very hard lesson to learn.

To be sacrificed to the ambitions of a prosecutor, to be sacrificed to the covetous desire of a spaniard, to be sacrificed to the jealousy of a shipmate...its unspeakable...then to be forgotten as if they were never guilty of this crime.

Like Albert Moncerf said of his father, "He should blush before other men." How could they live with a free conscience. They had completely forgotten Edmond.

As to the deaths, Edmond was indirectly involved in that. The stepmother was the one poisoning her own family members...although Edmond was the one who provided her with the means via his knowledge.

[Charmander]

I think when I read it, and even now - I just look at it from my own life experiences. I can't imagine being so vengeful - but if I had been wronged in such a manner, you're right, my actions would be quite different. Actually I would be a totally different person.

He was a very naive person and it was wonderful to watch his transformation, thanks to the Abby, to the most knowledgable person in Paris. I must say I did have a hard time realizing how much money the Abby bestowed upon Edomund - it seemed like Mary Poppins' purse! I loved when he bought the horses and then gave them back - just to show his wealth.

I liked the plot twist in the end where the adopted son who was to be married to Danglars daughter turns out to be the child that was buried alive by the prosecutor - who's name still escapes me - that was a stroke of genius. Though I said to my grandfather, I kind of saw it coming, only because nowadays you see a lot of this, in soaps and what not - but it's interesting to realize that this same tool used by Dumas is used today.

[Lady Galadriel]

Villefort. Thats the name that keeps eluding you.

Yes, the plots in the story were intriguing. There really werent any useless characters. I wish I was not at work...that way I could think more about the book. :(

[Charmander]

Me too - about being at work! I'm trying to complete a strategic audit, but it is really boring, and this is waaay more interesting!

Villefort! I will try not to forget it! But if I do, I know at least two places to look - in the book or in this chat room.

I s it just me, or were you a little distrurbed by the Arab kid - the one with no tongue? That seemed...weird to me - I mean, maybe it is nice to have help that love you because you saved them after their throat was pulled out but before they were hanged... :mmmm:

[Lady Galadriel]

Me too - about being at work! I'm trying to complete a strategic audit, but it is really boring, and this is waaay more interesting!

Ah! Is it that boring? :grin:

Villefort! I will try not to forget it! But if I do, I know at least two places to look - in the book or in this chat room.

What chat room?

I s it just me, or were you a little distrurbed by the Arab kid - the one with no tongue? That seemed...weird to me - I mean, maybe it is nice to have help that love you because you saved them after their throat was pulled out but before they were hanged... :mmmm:

You mean Ali? Well, the Count seemed weird enough. I mean, its almost like Edmond did not exist anymore. But, really, he didnt. Mercedes was the only person who reminded him of Edmond. Remember when she came in and said, "Edmond, you wont kill my son?" The Count was so startled that he uttered a cry. He had completely buried Edmond. Yet, he was ready to sacrifice his life for the son of Mercedes.

But I dont think you answered my question. Do you think Mercedes still loved him in the end. When she returned to the place where Old Dantes lived, and she said goodbye to her son, the Count and her had a conversation. I have read the last part of the conversation several times trying to figure out if she still loved him.

I remember the Count asked her, "Will you not even say that you will see me again?"

And Mercedes answered by pointing to the heavens and saying, "I still hope."

Then she turned and run upstairs to Old Dantes apartment and she did not see the Count leave. Instead she was looking at the ship that was bearing her son away...but her voice was involuntarily saying, "Edmond, Edmond, Edmond..."

I feel sooooooooooo sorry for them. I really do. Its so unfair. They were so happy together in the beginning. Its overwhelming to think that they did nothing to these people, and that love and life was taken away from them. Its really really really sad. ITs depressing.

I tried to feel happy that the Count found love again with the Greek, but Dumas needed to write more about her. I couldnt feel any happiness as such with their union. I mean, I like Haydee, but the reader needed to know more about her besides that she was beautiful...especially since she was a new character.

[Charmander]

Strategic audits are not fun - it requires my doing actual work! It's really not that bad - but the analysis is getting a little time consuming - or is it because it's open, but I'm not actaully doing it - :mmmm:

I'm sorry, I'm referring to this as a chat room - since a lot of the time we seem to be on at the same time and the responses are so fast!

You know, it's hard to say - I mean, he obviously cares greatly for her and she for him, but I think once she broke her promise to wait for him and once he became this completely different person I don't think it was possible for them to have the love they once shared. I would have to say that she didn't love him enough to leave her son, who is a daily reminder of her unfaithfulness to Edmund. I don't think the Edmund and Mercedes could have ever been together in a way that would have been similar to where the story started. But that's just me.

I agree that the Haydee character could have been more drawn out - other than being a character witness she didn't seem to have much redeeming value.

[Lady Galadriel]

I agree with your surmise about their love. I think the both of them had experienced too much hurt to bridge the distance between them. I dont think it was so much about Albert, but more so about the fact that she married the very man who took the his life away. That would be an obstacle too great to surpass. And their love could have never been the same as in the beginning since that was "innocent" love.

In the end, Albert thought the Count was justified. The author said rightly that he had a noble heart. He was honestly horrified by what his father had done to the Count and he cried when he read the letter that the Count had sent informing them of the savings he had buried as dowry for Mercedes. He said something like, "Some have suffered unspeakably and yet live to rise again."

This book was truly moving. My emotions were completely wrung. Its very sad. There were no happy endings, in my opinion except for Valentine and Maximillian. They had what Edmond & Mercedes would have had if their lives had taken a different path.

[Bane of Lunazra]

wow u guys - intense convo - i can barely keep up - i havent read it yet - but now i feel i must go to nearest book.. store... and ... buy!! (sry for interrupting lol but tis fascinating) lol

[Charmander]

Bane - glad we could encourage! It's a little long, but well worth the read!

I don't know that I was so spent with emotion when I finished. I almost felt like there was excellent closure - and that made a big difference to me. When I read Lost of the Mohicans it was just tiresome. But with tCoMC I was compelled to read and was glad that things turned out as it should have. Or at least as well as we could have hoped based on everything that had happened. I almost felt a little uplifted at the end - like things will work out, but you have to help them along. And the fact that the Count wasn't destroyed by his vengance was a good sign - not that I'm into vengenance - but in case I were, that could be my argument in hopes of not being consumed by it.

[Lady Galadriel]

Wow! I cannot say that the Count of Monte Cristo left me feeling that it ended happily. It ended satisfactorily considering the sufferings that Edmond experienced, but no one or nothing he did, could erase that pain. Too many terrible things happened to him and luckily he was able to redeem himself from wrecking complete destruction in the lives of those who sinned against him. However, I am certain that he would trade all the wealth he found if he had a chance to relive the past with his dad and Mercedes. But, alas, this is real life we are talking about. And there is no going back in time. Like he told Mercedes, what he loved after her was his dignity.

I can’t tell you how sorry I felt for them. It just kills me that Edmond’s father died through starvation and he was never able to see his son again. It also kills me that a love as beautiful and innocent as that shared by Mercedes & Edmond was callously and wantonly taken away. It just kills me that the life that was destined to be Edmond’s, so full of hope and happiness, was stolen from him. It just kills me that he spent 14 years in a dungeon and forgotten by those who placed him there. It just kills me that the good in the man was trampled and almost destroyed. I could go on and on…even about the other characters, but I think you get why this book affects my emotions.

It leaves me wistful, just like I am sure many of us experience at times in our lives. What if? If only? I know that Mercedes seemed remorseful in the end. In the end, she was clinging to the younger years of her life when she was with Edmond and when she was truly happy. She said as much to him in the end. That is her reward for her inconstancy. And his reward, to forget her through Haydee although I think he could never love her the way he loved Mercedes.

[Charmander]

I completely understand what you're saying - but I feel like at the end, he realized that he couldn't ever go back - and when he accepted it, I felt better for it. I mean, you're right we've all had those times in our lives like what if - and bad things do happen that are totally out of your control, but to let it consume you and to know nothing else but that disappointment is short changing everyone involved. Actually, to use a really on target reference I look to Frodo at the end of RotK - he knew he couldn't stay, he knew that the decisions he had made in the past couldn't be unmade and that the horrors he had endured couldn't be undone - but he accepted it, and when he did I felt better - and sad - but I knew that he was doing what was best for everyone involved - he couldn't let Sam be torn in two.

I do feel sorry that things can't go back to the way they were, but maybe it's better that way. Maybe Edmund and Mercedes were not meant to be together. Maybe the book was about the happiness that spawned from the revenge of Edmund - with Maximillain and Valentine. I think it's very poignant that it was Maximillian's father who did all he could to help Old Dantes. And for the only true happiness of the book to go to Maximillian gives me the impression that the good deeds his father did paid off - not that it was a reason to do the good deeds, but to be rewarded for them.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I try not to get to bogged down with what could have been - even if it was or was not in my control - it's past and over and there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm just glad that things are as good as they are, even if they aren't perfect, I can think of a lot worse! The same can be said for the Count, things could have gone a lot worse for him once he started his revenge. Maybe that's why he was so merciful with Danglars, letting him repent - I still haven't finished that strategic audit and now I'm going to be thinking about this :mmmm:

[Lady Galadriel]

I completely understand what you're saying - but I feel like at the end, he realized that he couldn't ever go back - and when he accepted it, I felt better for it. I mean, you're right we've all had those times in our lives like what if - and bad things do happen that are totally out of your control, but to let it consume you and to know nothing else but that disappointment is short changing everyone involved.

Nah! I understand what you are saying, but I am not talking about the ability to accept things that you cannot change. What I am saying is that I feel such remorse for them, such sadness. Its good that they all accepted their fates, but I am just saying that I cannot help feeling that they were grossly cheated by the hands of fate…or rather, fate dealt them a hefty blow.

I know that Edmond changed too much to be his former self. That happens to everyone who endures adversity similar to that he underwent. Mercedes changed drastically too. She became a woman bound to a man whom she did not love while she mourned for the man who truly possessed her love. Like she said, it would have been better for her to remain single than marry a man while crying for another every night of her life. Her hair was grown gray at the age of 40 because of her perpetual mourning.

But just so you know, I was not talking about “acceptance.” We all have to “accept” or waste our lives by living under a shadow. What I was really talking about were the tragic occurrences that almost destroyed two innocent lives and still, in the end there are no winners. There was no way that the Count was gratified by his actions. Even him talk about suffering thru Haydee. Nah, it ended satisfactorily given the circumstances, but not happily, imo.

[Charmander]

I agree that there is a lot of remorse - it is really a series of very unfortunate incidents to happen to the same person. And the fact that it was fueled by such malicious intent only makes it that much worse. I kind of cheered for the Count ever time he was able to deal a blow to his betrayers. But can you imagine escaping death and imprisonment and then dedicating the rest of your life to revenge? I guess after fourteen years and knowing who'd done it I imagine I'd be in a very similar boat - though one would hope that the American justice system wouldn't get it quite so wrong in this day and age - but there's no way to know. I guess I do feel sad for them, but glad that it was over, that the ordeal was over - I mean, as far as we know no other mishaps occured, Albert returned safely, Valentine and Maximillian lived happily and the Count was able to live out the rest of his life in peace. That's what made it an uplifting ending.

Just as a side note, my favourite character by far was the Abbey! To find such a knowledgable person imprisoned so near to Edmund made the whole story. I was sorry to see him die, but their plan would never have worked - tunneling under the prison, I couldn't figure out how they knew which way they were going! I get lost walking around downtown - but to be in the dark under a prison!!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes. I like the Abbey too. His philosophy about life was accurate. Many of the things he told Edmond in prison was enlightening even to me, in these modern times. I remember when he was trying to decipher who was exactly behind Edmond’s imprisonment, he told Edmond to talk sensibly. He asked Edmond to name all those who had ill feelings toward him and Edmond answered no one. Then the Abbey rebuked him saying that he has to speak more sensibly and to stop thinking so naively. Then he gave Edmond advice that was applicable to human nature even through today.

[Charmander]

I couldn't believe Edmund's naivety over not having anyone dislike him. When the Abbey told him to think sensibly I thought finally - we're going to get somewhere! I was intrigued that the Abbey was able to delimit the most likely suspects of Edmund's incarceration and betrayal. I loved when he went back to the cell at the end of the book and was able to find (or was given by the guard) some momentos that once belonged to the Abbey.

I thought it was interesting that Carderhouse (I know that is probably not spelled correctly :) ) that he was rewarded for doing virtually nothing and that the diamond he had been given lead ultimately to his death. Ironic and appropriate. I felt like he had decieved Edmund (dressed as the Abbey) and the truth was that he most likely did nothing to help Old Dantes and in turn got what he deserved.

[Lady Galadriel]

I thought it was interesting that Carderhouse (I know that is probably not spelled correctly :) ) that he was rewarded for doing virtually nothing and that the diamond he had been given lead ultimately to his death. Ironic and appropriate. I felt like he had decieved Edmund (dressed as the Abbey) and the truth was that he most likely did nothing to help Old Dantes and in turn got what he deserved.

I dont believe that Edmund believed him for a second. He was undeceived enough by Carderouse, Fernand, and Danglars. Especially after discovering their treachery. Carderouse was just a means to an end for Edmund and he probably pitied him. Maybe also Edmund was grateful for the confirmation that the interview with Carderouse gave him. Afterall, from him he understood the true sufferings of his father and the conspiracy of his betrayers.

[Charmander]

You're probably right - it just was a little aggravating to see him reward someone who did nothing but make his father's life very difficult. It disgusted me that all those people allowed the old man to die from starvation. That isn't acceptable - of course I'm taking a modern turn on it, I mean, we waste so much and there are so many people out there who would be happy with a small portion of what we have! It's just very disheartening!

I think the only one's who really got what they deserved was Maximillian's family. When the Count got him a new boat with the same crew and got the creditors off the father's back - it was so touching. And the fact that the ship builder was so willing to go out on a limb for someone who was "clearly" guilty shows great character. One of the few characters who do.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes. Monsieur Morrel was a decent man. It really touched me how he looked out for Edmond and his interests.

What did you think about Mrs. Danglars? Did you see how quickly her young lover dumped her? I was very surprised. I actually thought he was in love with her. He was just using her for their investments. What a hard lesson for her to learn.

[Charmander]

What a hard lesson to learn so late in life. She was not a model citizen though, so I was not at all surprised that she got her comeupance. I was actually glad for it. I thought the whole affair was a ruse by the younger gentleman and she was naive to have not seen it coming. I didn't understand why she thought he would give everything up to be with her, it didn't make sense to me. I guess when he basically told her that she was unwise for having thought it was pretty clear. I mean, what he did was totally wrong, but what she started with him sent a very distinct message, and right and wrong didn't seem to have much to do with it.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes, she had a "past." But I thought that her expiation would be in a different form. Thats what surprised me. I was looking for something more to do with her illegitimate son. I truly saw her lover as insignificant so I had no idea it would end that way.

[Charmander]

You're right - the way Dumas played it I would have thought the illegitimate son would have played a larger role for the mother, as he did for the father. But I think Dumas may have, and this is me just thinking, that he wanted the revenge to seep into every orifice for everyone who had in some way wronged Edmund. Although, I can't remember her doing anything directly to Edmund, or her even knowing it, but I imagine her marriage to a deplorable husband was enough.

I was a little surprised at how the illigitemate sone storyline progressed. It first started with the false papers, right? And then moved on to the wedding to Eugenia, and then yet further with some public debacle - or am I mixing things up. I bet there's a synopsis online somewhere and I should really just look it up to get all the facts straight!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah, I think you are right. The son was imprisoned for killing Caderousse. He was in courts when it was revealed that he was Villefort's son.

[Charmander]

Besides the Greek, was there any other character you thought should have been explored more?

The Eugena (sp?) Danglars story was kinda random I thought. I mean, all of a sudden she's getting married and then she runs away from home and then has a public embarassment - I thought that could have been done better - pulled together in a more coherent manner. It was almost like she was just a means to an end - but not a greatly productive one. I mean, her life was ruined, and her father had no money for her to fall back on. I actually felt kinda bad for her.

[Lady Galadriel]

I didnt like her. You are right, I do believe she was expedient. Was she a lesbian? lol Or, was it that she was a liberated woman? She didnt seem like a nice person, if memory serves me well.

[Charmander]

I wondered that myself - since she didn't seem at all interested in the marriage or the guy, who if memory serves was at least decent looking. I remember she visited Valentine's family right as either Valentine was falling ill or Nortier's servant was killed, and they were still talking about her impending nuptuals and not caring about the death that was hindering the family. I liked the doctor that wathed over Valentine - my favourite is when he tells the father, this isn't a coincidence, someone in this house is doing it, and then he accused Valentine - which was absurd, but it was appropriate that it was the step mother! I swear, I don't know an instance where a step mother is seen in a positive light!

[Lady Galadriel]

You know, I was quite upset with the doctor when he thought it was Valentine. I mean, how daft he was.

As to the evil stepmum, I wondered how the Count found out that she was already poisoning her family members. Remember, it was Valentine's grandfather who first succumbed to her treachery. But the thing is, he was not living near her. For her to extend her ill deeds through that distance, it must be said that she had little regard for human life. And to think, she actually slept at night. I can only conclude that she was devoid of a conscience.

[Charmander]

I was shocked when the doctor accused Valentine and was glad the father was like, no way! I couldn't believe the step mother killed her own parents! Wait, were they her parents or Valentine's mother's parents? I can't remember, but to be killing all those people - man, she's going to be burning in hell for quite some time! Her son accidnetally dies, right? and then after that she committed suicide. Man, that was the house of death - didn't all the help leave and they had to get new help because people didn't want to come back?

[Lady Galadriel]

Oh, it was Valentine's grandparent. Valentine's mother died a while back and her grandparents were the ones whom the stepmother poisoned. She was a piece of work. She was never able to poison Nortier though...his servant kept a good watch over him although no good enough since he died in Nortier's place.

Yeah, the servants left. lol That was kinda hilarious. lol

[Charmander]

I could picture the scene in my head and it just seemed hilarous. You know, since I've read this I haven't found much else to interest me - I'm reading HoME during my commute, but at home I've skimmed through a handful of books and haven't come up with anything lasting. I don't know - it was just written so well, and the characters you could really latch onto. I've got to say - the part where the Count first appears and befriends Albert and ___ (names - I'm bad with names) - that was great!

[Lady Galadriel]

Dont get me started about the scarcity of good books.

I am reading Les Miserables and I purchased the unabridged version. Okay, I read the introduction and learnt that it was criticized for its many digressions. Trying to be a trooper about it, I launched into the book, prepared to spend my leisurely time perusing it. I read the first part and I clearly saw the digressions...right down to shopping list and the cost of each item on the shopping list....Anyway, I did not allow that to discourage me. I survived through most of the two parts...but then there is all this historical stuff about Napolean battles...blah..blah..blah..which did not have a direct connection to the story. Needless to say, my patience was wearing thin. Now, I am completely fed-up with it. The writer is excellent in everythingelse except sticking to the story. Sometimes its really exhausting because he would use an entire chapter just to talk about love. Its almost crazy.

Anyway, have you read A Tale of Two Cities? I liked that. You might want to try that. **tries to remember more**

Yeah...Dumas is an excellent writer. Count of Monte Cristo was awesome. When he met Albert it seemed scary. Wasnt there a lady saying that he looked like a vampire because his skin was so pale? He seemed really scary through the eyes of the others. It almost felt like I no longer knew him.

[Charmander]

I'm impressesd that you're reading it! We did it as a school play back in high school and I was quite put off! I do like Dickens - I read Great Expectations last year and that was actually really good - but the ending kind of left me unfulfilled. Les Mis sounds a lot like Moby Dick - except with that it was on topic, just really drawn out - like there were multiple chapters about kinds of whales which I now know are not totally correct - interesting to see Melville's take on them at that time. I have The Tale of Two Cities in the queue - as soon as I finish reading Faust - which is strange and I'm not really sure what's going on right now.

You're right about not knowing him, when I first got to that section of the book I was wondering who the two younger characters were and what on earth they had to do with Edmund! We had to be reaquainted with him as the Count.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah...we had to get reacquainted with him as the Count....but he sure seemed scary.

Great Expectations? I saw the movie and I read the user reviews at B&N website and Amazon.com. They were mostly good but I cannot remember why I have not tried that one as yet. If the reviews give a hint that the hero or heroine is "screwed" by the author, I usually defer trying it until I have nothingelse to read. For example, I understand that Dumas other book, The Man in the Iron Mask, leaves the good people really screwed. I might venture to read it one day, but not anytime soon. lol I know that in real life a lot of good people face successive obstacles, but in fiction, I would prefer good people get the "good" they deserve...otherwise, what is the point in reading fiction? :p

Oh, and I have several of the HoME series. But I am not really interested to those pertaining to LOTR. I have the ones pertaining to the First Age. However, BOLT 1 is confusing since the names are mixed up. I think the Nolder is called the Teleri in BOLT 1. Its confusing. lol

[Charmander]

You're right about it being confusing, I'm almost done with second part of HoME and I'm not always sure who died or lived or killed :). I should go back and read the Silmarillion before going further...

I'm afraid you're right, sort of, about Great Expectaions. At the end I was disappointed, but I realized that the characters got what they deserved - Dickens set it up very well - there are some twists and turns that make it interesting.

I've read Man in the Iron Mask and it is not as fulfilling as tCoMC. I don't know that I was disappointed, but it makes you want something different.

I agree with your take on ficition - but sometimes I do like reading depressing books just to have a slice of reality every so often lol!

[Lady Galadriel]

Trust me, in my life, I dont need a book to get a slice of reality. It assaults me everyday. Like right now I am having a dispute with my former landlord and I am in desperate need of a good book to help me forget. pfbbt

But back on topic, I was thinking today that I disliked Mercedes when she came to beg the count not to kill her son...and I feared the Count when he made his appearance after escaping.

[Charmander]

I'm sorry to hear about the landlord dispute - sometimes I just think we should all make a better effort to make life easier for others - instead of harder! In a perfect world...

I think I was fine with her even after that - I think I actually respected her when she decided to wait for her son to return rather than trying to pursue her interests with Edmund. I thought as a mother she probably did the right thing, but from a reader's standpoint I was irritated that she came to him at all. She had no right to interfere - especially since her son acted so foolishly! In the end he did the right thing.

[Lady Galadriel]

Oh, dont get me wrong. I wasnt talking about her decision to remain alone. I dont think there was a "decision" to make there. I think Edmond and her realized that there was an impasse between them that was impossible to overcome.

What I didnt like about her when she came to appeal to Edmond...is when she accused him of not forgetting when Providence had already forgotten. It seemed as though both her and her son thought that he should not have aided Haydee in bringing to light what Fernand did. It was only until they understood what he did to Edmond that they realized that he had a valid grievance against Fernand. But why should Fernand be excused for betraying Haydee's father and murdering him? That is what I didnt like about her.

[Charmander]

OK - I'm on the right page now, you're right - they were not justified in that aspect - Whatever happened to Ferdand happened because of his own duplicitous nature. He desereved to be found guilty for the wrongs he had committed - as I always believe - or at least try to believe. I think integerity was what that entire family was lacking. They didn't want to be held responsible for the actions of the father and today that may seem reasonable, but not so in those times. If anything, the Count was justified for bringing the truth to life - having nothing to do with the vendetta that was held between the two men.

I still kind of wonder about Nortier - was he supposed to be a hero - even though he was a Bonapartist - which is supposed to be bad, though I'm not sure why - I think I need to read more history texts...I hate admitting it :(

[Lady Galadriel]

I told my boss that yesterday...I should have paid more attention to history...especially after I read the Scarlet Pimpernel which covered the French Revolution....then Count of Monte Cristo which cover Bonaparte and the restoration. However, I intend to do that eventually.

Nortier was good....I thought he was bad...but after I found out that he fairly won the duel between the king's spy (Franz's father) and himself...then I saw him in a different light.

[Charmander]

He was kind of a mystery - like he seemd like the kindly old man, but then there's this past that has to do with Edmund - so until he brings out the letter it's all a mystery. I ended up liking him because he wanted Valentine's happiness and would do anything for her, unlike her parents. I felt bad that the servant got poisoned by accident. But I was glad that the woman who did the poisoning was killed - she didn't kill her son did she, he died by accident or something, right?

The only time I seem to ever learn history is when I travel - when I see it, it resonates more. Maybe that's just me.

[Lady Galadriel]

But Nortier had nothing to do directly with Edmund. It was the son, Villefort, who brought about Edmund's misery. All done to hide his father's political sympathies. I actually liked Nortier because he looked out for Valentine...but I was happy to hear that he was not a murderer.

[Charmander]

I agree - but Dumas really kept you guessing about him until the letter was clear - than I was like - oh, he's not a killer or an evil person - he was doing what at that time was normal. You said something about packing, going anyplace excting?

[Lady Galadriel]

I just moved Charmander...I am getting settled in the new place. :grin:

Yes, Dumas did keep us guessing about that. I wasnt sure if he was evil or not. I liked him though. He had guts. He was Valentine's protector.

[Charmander]

Hope it's someplace nice! I'm not very good about moving, I can never throw things away!

It was good that he stuck to his guns, unfortunate that his son couldn't inherit some of those qualities. And interesting that he was so quick to defend his father, probably more so because he didn't want his own name being dragged through the mud. It was intersting that he was able to communicate without using words and was able to get his will changed, very ingenius. I'm asuming that Valentine and Maximillain married and lived with Nortier at the end. That could prove to be an interesting household!

[Lady Galadriel]

You know....I honestly think that Villefort loved and respected his father. Think back to when he visited the king and realized that the guards would soon be on to his father. He assisted his father by giving him a change of clothing etc. But it was not only that. It was the way in which they interacted. He loved his father despite his father's sympathies with Napoleon.

Oh, yes, it would be an interesting household. But Maximillian's father was a Bonapartist as well. Nortier must have respected Maximillian just for that alone.

[Charmander]

Maybe the vibe I get off of Villefort is a result of his treatment of Edmund. I just feel that even though he did all those things to defend his father he was also trying to protect himself and further his own selfish cause.

[Lady Galadriel]

There is no doubt about that...his actions were in part due to his ambition...but he also seemed to have a great respect and reverence for his father. Look at the way his father was able to deter him in his actions with Valentine. Even as a cripple, he still respected his father's prowess.

[Charmander]

It even seemed like everyone at least respected him, even though one was trying to kill him! We might have to try to think of another book to discuss, I can't think of anything exciting about tCoMC! Or maybe it's Friday and I need more refreshing after the holiday!

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, how about Caderousse and his wife...and how they ended up murdering the jeweler ...and how she ended up dead.

[Charmander]

Good topic! That was really unfortunate - but very much deserved. He was a nefarious character and it was consistent throughout the book. He was the one that lived near Edmund's father, right? I think that's right. I liked how Dumas brought him back into the story and had him killed so near the Count. I still couldn't believe that he and his wife killed the jeweler, and then he killed his wife - I guess that kind of money does that to people with loose morals.

[Lady Galadriel]

But the thing is, I never thought of Caderousse as a murderer...only a thief. I was very shocked when he murdered the jeweler and his wife. Before, when Danglars and Mondego were conspiring against Edmond, he protested even though he was inebriated at the time. Also, at the wedding when Edmond was arrested and he realized what had occurred, he confronted Danglars who blackmailed him into keeping his mouth shut. That is why I was kinda surprised.

[Charmander]

I guess the reason I wasn't surprised was because he behvaiour seemed to escalate - getting more and more nefarious. At started with taking money from Edmund's father and then needing it to survive. Even when the Count arrived dressed as the Abbey he was showing his true colours. I mean, maybe he wasn't a murdered, but he was certainly not an upstanding citizen. Maybe it's the objectivism in me, but I kind of saw it coming, the evil of Caderousse.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah...but there are thieves who arent murderers....and I just saw him as a thief.

[Charmander]

That's true - there are levels of badness - for a lack of a better term, I just imagine that once you open the floodgates there's no telling what will happen. In comparison - it's kind of like drugs, if you start using one, you often start using more. Not exactly apples and apples, but that's how I look at it. Besides, when they let the jeweler back in the house you knew it couldn't turn out well, especially with the wife nagging as she did.

[Lady Galadriel]

I thought she was the evil one and he was the wimp. lol

[Charmander]

Well, she definetely wore the pants in that household! She really only has herself to blame for being killed! She gave him the bad idea and why shouldn't he keep it for himself!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes, she planted the seed. I think she convince him and he figured why not solve two problems in one shot.

[Charmander]

She was definetely up to no good. Was it those two who adpoted the child who had been buried alive, I can't remember. But if it was, then at least they raised a child who would have otherwise been left for dead.

[Lady Galadriel]

No...it was Benito...the Count's servant. That child was wicked. He astonished me as well.

[Charmander]

He was awful - I guess he was born and died from the same evil. I couldn't believe that he killed people as he did. Well, there were a few murderers in that book. It was interesting that the Count employed people who he could manipulate because of their backgrounds. I still feel bad for Ali...

[Lady Galadriel]

REally? I think the Count treats Ali well.

[Charmander]

But he only saved his life after they cut his tongue out - call me crazy, but that's just a little too cruel. Of course when he explained that it was because he didn't want his employees to talk or something that only made it worse in my mind.

[Lady Galadriel]

Ah! Yes...I thought that was inhumane of him to say. I told you I was afraid of him. But he got justice for the "innocent" Edmond.

[Charmander]

You did - and he is scary - this book kind of reminds me of the Shawshank Redempetion, it was only after he was unjustly imprisioned did he learn to live in a manner unbecoming of his original self. I love that line from Andy (if you've ever seen it) - where he tells Redd that he had to come to prison to be a crook! I love that - and Edmund was somewhat like that - but he was never a crook - he just learned to play by different rules, as those who wronged him had.

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes..I love Shawshank Redemption.

That goes to show how experience and circumstances can change a person.

[Charmander]

That movie is what I almost would have liked to see Edmund do - I mean, move on with life, not linger on something that can't be changed - although he was able to avenge wrongs done to his father, which makes it a little better, but still - I think I'm all over the place - on the one hand he is justified in his action, but then on the other, two wrongs don't REALLY make a right...I don't know...

[Lady Galadriel]

Walk a mile in his shoe and you might understand. Maybe Bush read the Count of Monte Cristo...but he did not do his due diligence. lol

[Charmander]

I don't think he could have made it through the first part!! Actually there was this really funny joke going around my office the other day about the president's reading habits - you may have seen it, it was something like - the presidential library caught fire and all the books were destroyed. The president is greatly upset by this, he had almost finished colouring the one of the two books. I don't think I retold it correctly, but you may get the idea...