Saruman's Death

[Saruman]

I have a theory of how Saruman might die. The scouring won't be in the movie, so it would have to be something else. There was a theory about a spikey wheel, on which the wizard may get impaled. But both Ian Mckellen and Saruman have assured us that it is not the case.
On page 122 of 'The Lord of the Rings: the Making of the Movie Trilogy' by Brian Sibley, there is a picture of Grima Wormtongue lying on what looks to be the floor of Orthanc at Isengard. He is holding a knife, and looks as though he has just burst into a rage. He is probably about to kill Saruman. This would be good; even if the scouring is not in the movie, at least the he gets killed in the same way.

[Sindarin]

I believe so as well. After all, it was Grima who killed Saruman in the first place in ROTK. Despite the fact Wormtongue saw his end as well.

Thus said, I hope P.J. keeps Saruman's demise true to the book, sans "Scouring of the Shire" setting.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I think it's very important that Grima kill Saruman. This is an aspect of Grima's character which is extremely important in understanding him. The tear that falls as he looks on the 10k leads me to believe they will do Saruman's death as an act showing how not-so-evil-after-all Grima is.

[Lady Melody]

But then it will make ROTK pretty LONG... plus Shelob and all... 4 and a half hours at least

[Sauron]

I keep thinking the same thing, ROTK has to have:

Shelob
Sam finding frodo
destroying the Ring
Saurman losing his staff
Saurman's death
Pippin/Merry swearing in as swordthains
Theoden's death
The battle of Pleannor fields
Denthor(SP?) death
The whole "Denthor trying to kill Faramir"
Charging the Black gate
Mordor falling
Aragorn becoming king
The houses of healing
The Grey Havens
Aragorn/Arwen's wedding
Merry/Pippin/Sam returning home
Merry/Pippin's Weddings
Merry/Pippin's Death

[TheRingBearer]

So I see you're a Merry and Pippin fan then ;)
I know that the hobbites swearing alligence to the kings is in cause if you watch the first (i think) teaser trailer on the original dvd of fellowship (not extended) you will spot a shot that lasts about a second with Merry on one knee in front of Theoden in Edoras with the townspeople looking on in the back ground :thumbs:

[HobbitFriend]

****MAJOR SPOILER!****




The following link i found on a website that has scene by scene images. This is of Saruman... Dead. So i take it they did make him fall out of a window :( well i guess you can't have everything be the same as the book :huh:
http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots_ttt/spikedwizard.jpg

[Saruman]

That was the picture that started the rumour. This could be the way he dies, but it still could be alright. Maybe Grima pushes him.
But those robes, though they are white, don't look like Saruman's robes.

[HobbitFriend]

ooo... didn't know that lol idk... i think it is him though... because if he does die that way, it will be after Gandalf throws him from the order - then he won't have a "color". I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I really hope it is Wormtongue who kills him - then it will be closer to the book.

[Keverzwijn]

SPOILERS AND SPECULATIONS

I think Grima will kill Saruman by stabbing him in the back on top of Orthanc. Probaly after Saruman told Grima that he had betrayed his own race and stuff about Eowyn (stuff like that). The thing with the spikey wheel was probaly an alternative dead for Saruman. Most fans didn't like it so PJ probaly cancelled it. Pj saw it as a homage to Christopher Lee's role as Dracula. I heard somewhere that the movie will be 3 hours and 30 min long. That should do it, with Shelob, Pelennor, Gollum's end, The grey havens, ... Oh boy I can't wait for it. It will probaly make up for the lesser emotional value of TTT.

[Iarfirithwen]

I just read in Imdb-Pro:
Did You Know?: There are reportedly five different death scenes filmed for the character of Saruman. Christopher Lee has said that he had no idea which one would be used in the final cut.

[TheRingBearer]

Yeah I heard that except there was SEVEN different ones. Hopefully we'll get to see all of them on the dvd :grin:

Remember that picture of Wormtongue on Orthanc with a dagger? Well I saw that pic somewhere and the caption underneath was something like 'Fed up with the way Saruman's been treating him, Wormtongue leaps up and cuts his throat'

:)

[Iarfirithwen]

What like a choose your on adventure book? 2hrs and 40 minutes into the DVD a menu pops "To continue, choose from one of the following options a - g"
lol

Re: Wormtongue photo with the dagger. Maybe he does. Maybe Grima cuts Sauman's throat and then he falls off Orthanc ...and ....

he lands on spikey wheel lol (thats killing two birds with one stone in two ways ... hehehe

[TheRingBearer]

lol choose your own adventure. that'd be so funny.

[Little Devil]

lol
I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see what PJ does, quite sure he wont disappoint us. ;)

[Faramir]

I need some help. What is the best way to let my friends know about the Scouring being cut and Saruman's death different. They dont know it yet. Or should i not tell them.

[TheRingBearer]

I'd just say to them, 'hey, read the books first before seeing the movie. You'll appreciate the film more that way' :)

[Huan the Hound]

Faramir, if they have already read the the books and are willing to go for some film spoilers, then I would tell them what changes were made from the book to 'soften the blow' when they see the film. After all, PJ himself gave the Shelob and SotS lowdown to us.

(I hope this makes sense) I think non-readers of the book should not be told as I don't think it would matter since they would not be dissappointed by changes they know nothing about.

[Black Rider]

every time it comes up in conversation with someone i know who has read the book, whenever i say the scouring of the shire will be cut, they all go, "WHAT?!?!?!"

it's mad funny lol

[Little Devil]

Scouring of the Shire is going to be cut???
I just feel if my friends don't read the books it's their lost and my gain. :grin:

[Bonos-Girl]

unfortunately yes LD......what we saw in galadriels mirror was all the reference to it in the entire film.

[Little Devil]

What??? Nooo!! They can't do that, I was so looking forward to see it! :mecry: :(

[Saruman]

Wouldn't it be lovely if PJ is tricking us all and that we see t.s.o.t.s.? I think we'd all be pleasantly surprised. Still, one can dream...:snooze:

[Black Rider]

lol that would be REALLY great!

[PippaUK]

it would explain why they put sarumans "death" back to the last film

[Polly Sandybanks]

Ah.. I'd LOVE that!! But somehow I doubt it.

[Orkybash]

Yeah, it'd be cool, but... I'm not gonna get my hopes up...

[Frodo284]

I've forgotten people refresh my memory and spoil me all you like b/c nothing can fully be spoiled until it has been opened. :)the two towers book ends after they have gone to orthanc and broke saurmmans staff and denounced him. Does grima kill him then or do i thought i had also read the hobbits go back to the shire and it has been scoured and saruman has disguised himself as the mayor. how exactly does this go someone throw it on me plz..oh and however or whenever saruman dies i want blood f*cki the pg rating give us battles and gore...and do you all think shelob will be a good CG character?

[Cuthalion]

Shelob HAS TO BE a grat CG character. When I read the book it gave me the creeps and still does. Now , Saruman (sorry if this a spoiler but you have posteda lot of spoilers so I thought it wouldn't mind) gets killed by Grima on the Shire but he's not disguised as the major but commanding a band of evil men and semi-orcs and making a raelly disgusting place of the Shire. He's hidden in Lotho's house for Lotho had claimed himself as major (I have the Spanish version and Saruman is called "El Jefe" meaning The Chief or The Boss but I'm not sure how this goes in English). If you read it is so much better.

[Frodo284]

thank you for your answers

[Saruman]

I'm not sure, but I think they just call Saruman 'the Boss', like you said.

[Lady Ashley]

Say, could someone post a link to where I can find that Grima-holding-a-dagger pic?

[Saruman]

Here: Wormtongue and his dagger (http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/mostlynewttt/images/wormtongueturns.jpg)

[Illuvatar]

Let's see if this works as well...

http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/mostlynewttt/images/wormtongueturns.jpg

hehehe

[Nessa the Dancer]

Woa!!! He looks so mad!

[Saruman]

What do you suppose could Sharkey have done or said, to have fuelled this anger? It looks as though he has just pushed Wormtongue over.

[Warrior Alien]

* on top of Orthanc*
Saruman: Gandalf wouldn't dare face me once more.
Grima: He could be more powerful. He looks . . . different.
Saruman: Silence, fool! Leave this to me. *points staff at approaching Gandalf*
Grima: It won't work. I have seen him use his powers. He cannot be defeaten.
Saruman: And what would Wormtongue know of this matter? With your feeble intelligence, you couldn't comprehend our powers.
Grima: *Smeagolish voice* Don't insult me.
Saruman: Who is in charge, you or I? I'm the most powerful being in this realm. Powerful enough to rival Sauron. You, however, are a filthy, flea-ridden cretin, who is worthless at everything! *turns away*
Grima: *unseathes knife* DIIIIIIIIEEE!!!! Slashes Saruman's throat.
Grima: Can't touch this! Na, na, na, naa-naa!

[Orkybash]

Personally, I think Grima will throw the Palantir like he does in the book, then Saruman will get angry and push him down... maybe throw him around like he did Gandalf? Then Grima will say "OK, I've had enough" and stab him.

Or, if PJ's feeling evil, throw him off the balcony onto a spiky wheel... :flamer:

[Frodo284]

Ok hold on one second...i thought it was in the end at the shire that saruman and wormtonuge go into it...not when gandalf and all of them go to orthanc correct me if i'm wrong

[Frodo284]

and who is sharkey

[Saruman]

The scouring of the Shire will not be in the movie, according to PJ. Thus a huge debate has arisen as to how Saruman and Wormtongue will die. Saruman is referred to as 'Sharkey' in the scouring of the Shire chapter, so you probably won't hear it in the movie.

I just had a thought. The S of the S was the only time when Saruman and Frodo meet. But wasn't Christopher Lee occaisionally on the same set as Elijah Wood? I may be wrong.

[Bonos-Girl]

didn't lij go and watch him act when i wasn't filming...this would imply that they weren't in any scenes together. Or am i getting the wrong hobbit here?!?

[Little Devil]

They probably did watch each other filming as one could have his part right after, and they would know each other of course. ;)

[Losshiroth]

I think Its worth noting that, in the picture of Grima, it doesn't look as dark as Orthanc did in the first two films. To me, it looks like sunlight- from the balcony that Saruman Stands on and delivers speeches and such from. This could hint at a couple of things- like it could be right after Saruman hurls the palantir off the balcony, or it could be before Grima shoves Saruman off the balcony. Just my two pence .

(my first post. cheers! entdraught)

[Faramir]

Actually, in the book, Grima throws out the Palantir, and I strongly doubt that Saruman will do it in the movie.

[Keverzwijn]

Ok, how about this? Grima throws out the palantir at Gandalf but misses. Saruman becomes enraged at wormtongue and starts punishing him. But then Grima has enough of it and stabs him in the back (on top of Orthanc)

[Bonos-Girl]

sounds good to me....although they should've left the scouring in!! lol

[Losshiroth]

lol...of course Grima throws the palantir out...my mistake.

[Cuthalion]

Welcome Losshiroth entdraught .I'm still imagining the Scouring...can't blame a guy for dreaming,can u ?

[TheRingBearer]

Possible Spoilers:


I found this on from the imdb's section on retuen of the king posted by someone. The most likly thing is that this person has just made these up but he claims these are Saruman's death scenes that have been filmed, though I very much doubt that

1. grima stabs him
2. He gets hit with the plantiar as grima throws ot out the window in isengaurd and dies instntly.
3. Hes at mt. doom and gets shoot with a arrow by legolas[the remaining fellowship is at mt. doom when frodo is tring to destroy the ring.]
4. same as #3 but he is thrown in mt. doom as he jumps for the ring as gollum is about to put it on.
5. he falls out of orthank on a spiked wheel and dies.

3 and 4 are absoulty stupid and i pray to god that they are not true. The others seem reasonable but I have better ideas myself

[Frodo284]

i hope they use the scouring or i will feel like it's not the same...I just started reading the books and there are SO many things i see know that jackson ddin't use, but then again, there is probably to much to get in there. I just wish he would point out some of the bigger things, and i now see why fans get so disapointed in movies over books and i never read books. I'm not disapointed in the movies, god no i love them to death i mention it somehow in my everyday life, i just really want the scouring in the movie, i don't want him to die at orthanc at like the VERY BEGINNING of ROTK. That would just leave boringness b/c in a way, that is what also makes ROTK book good is b/c after you think it's all over there is still more to go. But besides rumors and all, think about the running time and what jackson said, "it will be as long as needed, it's almost bilical" that must mean at least he'll use the grey havens, which is also very important. it kind of represents like heaven to middle-earth. So that might be a hint, and if it's going to be 3 1/2 hours long or "however long it needs to be", then maybe he'll just suprise us in the end w/ it...as ellen burnstyn says in REQUIEM FOR A DREAM, "in the end it's all nice,...you'll see already"

[Miruvor]

But I would hate to have something else that's really significant , cut out to make room for the Scouring. If I were directing, that would be one of the first things I would cut, if time were a problem -- because it is too lengthly! and would take up valuable time.
If he puts in everything that everybody wants, they may have to split ROTK in two and show the second half another year later.
Besides, we already saw the scouring in Galadriel's mirror. Thats enough for me.

[Veefy]

Remember PJ made that fake documentary "Forgotten Silver", perhaps the Grima dagger pic was released to deceive us..