elven genetics

[Elbereth]

Arwen and Aragorn marry and we know that they have children. What kind of ears do they have? Possibly this is in the wrong place as it was the films that made me think of it but, does anyone have any ideas?

[Lady Melody]

lol....

Err... round... since Arwen chose a mortal life for herself and her children.

[Elf angel]

Pointy, Master Elbereth because you see elves have em...i think they have stronger gene ...something likew that. :grin:

[Bena]

Well, Elrond is suppoesedly part human. If I'm not mistaken, his last name is Half-Elven. Wouldn't that mean Arwen has a little human in her? So my bets are on round, b/c I think there would be alot of human genes in the kids' DNA. Or then again, maybe I'm thinking a bit too far into this!

[Catz]

genetically it depends on whether or not Aragorn has any elvish in his bloodline........in a cross between Elvish and Human the Elvish is dominant..........ie: Elrond looks Elven as does Arwen. if there is Elvish in Aragorns background, the chances are that the children will almost definitley be Elvish in appearance......even without that factor with Arwen being 3/4 Elven i would expect the Elvish to dominate also.......
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Originally posted by Catz
Elrond looks Elven as does Arwen. ahem. then how do you explain Elros (who I am sure did not look elven.)

[Sindarin]

I tend to agree with Catz on this one. The Elven genes do dominate over the Human.

Elros' recessive Human genes simply happened to be stronger in determining the outlook in his case.

So, unless Aragorn and Arwen's children are predisposed to strong recessive Human genes, their characteristics will most likely be Elven in appearence.

That's just my opinion.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Well, as Elros kind of off sets the example of Elrond, I'd appreciate another example of elven genes being dominant?

mmm i know.. and this is just mine: i dont see any compelling evidence to make me think that elves genes are stronger. of course, i probably am up too late and need to go to bed as well :)

[Lady Melody]

I think that their ears changed the second their parents chose the sort of life the child should have... meaning, her kids would be mortal.

[Elbereth]

Thanks everyone

Elf angel - please note it's not Master Elbereth, I happen to be female!!!

[Lynx]

I'd have to agree with Lady Melody. I think that since Arwen chose a mortal life then their children would have human ears. Though I don't think think that when Arwen chose a mortal life her ears changed. I think her ears stayed the same. Thats just my opinion. I say it would be cool if the children did come out with elf ears though. I guess we'll never know for sure.

[Kezzy]

one child could have round while others have pointy because even though the elven genes are more dominant it doesn't mean that the less dominant gene won't be a factor in the cell growth of the childrens ears. its like the colour of ur eyes blue might be the dominant gene colour but the child might have brown which would be the recessive gene!

[Elbereth]

Thanx again - 1st post since christmas and the relatives have just left today!!
Just been imagining my biology teachers reaction if I asked her about elven genetics lol
Anyone else interested in genetics in general???

I think I agree with Kezzy that the ears would be mixed
Does it ever mention how many children they have? - I may have missed that bit if it's there!

[Lynx]

If you read in Appendix A about Arwen and Aragorn it tells that they have one son named Eldarion and some daughters. Though how many daughters and what their names are is not told.

[Gatsby]

where else would you be able to discuss whether arwen and aragorns kids will have pointy ears? any way i agree that the elvish genes are dominant, so i think they'll be pointy... cuz aragorn has elven blood in him, i mean he is descended from elros and elros was half elven... so i'm going with pointy
out
gatsby

[Gorsnak]

Why is everyone here assuming that elves actually have pointy ears? Granted, it's a sort of fantasy genre convention that they do, but I can't think offhand of a single reference to elven ear shape in the entire body of Tolkien's writing. Prove me wrong, anyone?

[Lynx]

Well I can't find where it says anything directly on elves at the moment but I know where it says something about hobbit ears in reference to elf ears.

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).
from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 35 (#27)

[Gorsnak]

Oh, now that is a lovely obscure quote. I love it. :)

[Elbereth]

Have just seen TTT again and looked har at elvish ears!
Elrod's ears are a bit strange actually. They aren't as pointy as other elven ears - or maybe I imagined it. Suppose some kind of co-dominance could come into play and Arwen and Aragorn's children could have ears a little more like Hobbit's - only slightly pointy.
Incidentally - why does EVERYONE in the film have blue eyes??? It began to annoy me. I thought all the elves mentioned had grey eyes or their eyes are just 'bright'. What does a typical elf look like?
Please excuse me as I haven't read much Tolkien (am in the process of changing that - about 1/4 through Silmarillion)
Back to school tomorrow :boohoo: will only be able to post at weekends

[Pil]

I know....pfbbt....i went bk to school today and it was living hell...

But anyway...i think, just from instinct and gut feeling, that the children would have pointed ears, if we are accepting that elves have pointy ears. :)

[Catz]

lol....actually Gorsnak its something of a forum convention to call the ears a "fantasy art convention"....that quote by Lynx is i think the only place its mentioned, but it shows that JRR saw "his" Elves with pointed ears
and where did it ever say that Elros didnt have pointed ears??
Kezzy is correct in that there would be a chance that the recessive genes for round ears could predominate.....but as Gatsby has said, Aragorn has Elvish blood also, so the chance of a double recessive overcoming the dominant elvish gene isnt likely.........i would however, envisage that their ears would be less pointed than those of a pure blood
:catz:

[Gorsnak]

Aragorn is of the line of Elros, yes, but at ~65 generations remove. Unless the Numenorean Lords of Andunie (the house of Elendil) and the Arnorian royal line were incredibly inbred, there would be exceedingly few elvish genes in Aragorn's genetic code. In fact, assuming that Elros was only Aragorn's ancestor one time over (which we know to be false - there was some inbreeding), the percentage of Aragorn's genes of an elvish origin would be on the order of 0.0000000000000000025% (0.5 ^ 65). Given the number of genes in the human genome, that percentage isn't actually possible, and so the probability would be no elvish genes whatsoever.

Now, given the marriage patterns of the families in question, it's entirely probable that Elros would show up in many, many of the branches of Aragorn's family tree, and not just one, so it would be reasonable to expect a few elvish genes. Even so, it's unlikely to the extreme that Aragorn would have any particular gene, such as the gene for pointy ears.

Now, we've known since Mendel that in the case of a trait governed by a single gene, offspring either get it or they don't. Ear lobes (attached v. unattached) are like this. I see no reason to think ear points would be controlled by multiple genes. It would be reasonable, then, to expect that pointy ears would be seen diffusing throughout the Numenorean population, in much the same way you'd see a scattering of brown eyes spreading throughout a population of blue-eyed people after the introduction of a single brown-eyed person into the breeding pool. Eye colour is a bit more complex, as it is controlled by more than one gene, but I think the analogy works.

So, what does this tell us? Probably just that Tolkien didn't think about genetics much. If he had, he'd know that his writings imply that elves and humans are the same species (hybrid offspring are fertile). And one would expect the pointy ears to show up sporadically among those of Numenorean descent - something you'd think we'd hear about, but we don't. Remember, traits like this don't become diluted (you don't get intermediate ear forms), their appearance just diffuses throughout the population.

This, I think, is not the way Tolkien thought of "elvishness" and "humanness". I submit that the following more closely models the way things worked in the writings:

Elves and humans are not the same species, and hence aren't interfertile. In the three instances where men mate with elves, "magic" is at work and the laws of Mendelian genetics are suspended. The offspring of such unions are allowed to choose between mortality and sailing into the west. When they make this choice, they become wholly elvish or human, though their outward appearance doesn't change. The only "elvish" genes that someone like Elros would pass down would be the human analogues of those which make elves tall, fair, etc, and not any actual elvish genes. Likewise for Arwen, and hence Aragorn's heirs would have round ears.

The problem with this model is that it would imply that Arwen herself wasn't halfelven, and hence wouldn't get to choose - since Elrond chooses to sail west, and Celebrian is entirely elvish, Arwen too should be entirely elvish. But what this really uncovers is a sort of inconsistency in the treatment of the various offspring resulting from the unions between men and elves. Now, granted, there aren't many individuals in the works here - Tuor and Idril have one son, Earendil. Beren and Luthien have one son, Dior. Dior weds Nimloth, and they have a daughter Elwing, who weds Earendil, and their sons are Elrond and Elros. According to my model, we should take Dior as choosing elvish, which would make Elwing an elf, and would imply Earendil is likewise choosing elvish. However, Dior is killed before he gets a chance to sail (not to mention the Doom of Mandos still applies at the time), and Earendil and Elwing pull off the sailing stunt, all of which seems to render choices sort of irrelevant. Then we see Elrond and Elros both choosing - but, and this is the inconsistent bit - Elrond's offspring are also given a choice, but Elros' offspring are not. Or perhaps I'm reading Arwen wrong, and we should think of her not having to make her father's choice, but having to make Luthien's choice (which come to think of it is an interpretation supported by the text - not only does she mention Luthien's choice, but Aragorn-Arwen as a pair are held as the equivalent of Tuor-Idril and Luthien-Beren), meaning that she isn't halfelven, but just elven. This in turn would imply that the kids would be half-elven and would themselves get to choose. But there is no hint given that they have such a choice when we read the end of the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices. It's also probably worth noting that Idril isn't portrayed as having to make a choice at all.

The conclusion to draw is probably just that Tolkien didn't really think this all the way through and enforce a completely coherent explanation on it all, which means that people like me can ramble on about the subject for far too long.

[Elbereth]

Wow Gorsnak :o my brain hurts
back from school and slight information overload
I can only add one thing - about co-dominance, where although the characteristic is controlled by 1 gene both versions of the gene affect the physical apperance. This gives 3 possible physical variations. If this occurs then elves have pointed ears and men have round ears but the half-elven have ears somewhere in the middle.
With regard to the choices made it reminds me of a game where a dice is thrown and when it shows a 6 the game ends but if another number is shown the game continues. A half-elven person has the right to choose to be man or elf. Choosing man is like rolling a 6 - the choice finishes and none of his decendants gets a choice. But if they choose elf the game continues - the ability to choose continues through the generations until someone choses to become mortal.
:blush: just a theory! Didn't mean to write so much!

[Bonos-Girl]

thats actually really cool......

i think that they would have more chance of having pointy ears beacause i have a feeling that elf genes would be stronger than those of human. don't ask me why!!!

i guess that it would be exactly like the eye colour thing cept tehy'd only be 2 (well...maybe three) choices (pointy, non-pointy and maybe half pointy-ish!!). In this case there is probably roughly equal chance actually.

I'm assuming that arwen has one pointy and one non-pointy gene and aragorn has 2 non-pointy.

[Tar-Minyatur]

Wait. . .
If Aragorn was descended from Elros Half-Elven, and the elven gene is dominant, then why doesn't Elessar have pointy ears. What if the Heir to the throne of Gondor had pointy ears?

[Catz]

the thing is that Tolkien never said he didnt either........so for all we know the major indicator of Royal blood in the line may have actually BEEN slightly pointed ears....and just as theres no reason to assume that ear shape is a single gene characteristic, not all genetic traits are........theres no reason not to either....so the arguement still stands......and thats the thing with a recessive gene........given how diffuse it would be in the Dunedan population, the chances of Aragorn having several ancestors having the recessive are quite high, each time, reinforcing its effect
:catz: