Who is the eldest?

[Saruman]

When I first read TLOTR, I noticed that both Tom Bombadil and Treebeard were 'the eldest'. Who actually is 'the eldest'?

[Mirkgirl]

There was one discussion on this a while ago... here (http://warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=360&highlight=treebeard+bombadil)
I don't support the theries that Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar... or Maia even. But I've always thought of him as some side-effect of Flame Imperishable (using "side-effect" as I'm not quite sure about his role in the whole thing; itself, incarnation maybe, or guardian, but all these theories semm both right and wrong)... that's the only way I see he to be here before seas and the dark lord.....
If we accept this theory, it does make him closely related to Illuvatar as Flame Imperishable was in Illuvatar at first.... and older than every other thing in Middle-earth, escluding the Ainur... including Treebeard lol...

[Rumil]

I think Bombadil is older - found out a little interesting trivia on Bombadil from the Carpenter biography of Tolkien. Apparently the character (down to his blue jacket and yellow boots) was based upon a Dutch doll belonging to one of his children!! Nice to think of this family joke making i into the novels.

[Orkybash]

I always took Treebeard's "eldest" to be some sort of title among ents, not a claim that he is in fact the oldist being on Arda. So yeah, I'd go with Tom.

[Iarfirithwen]

Going for Tom being older than treebeard on the basis of:

"Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'" The Fellowship of the Ring, In the House of Tom Bombadil.

I love the mystery surrounding him that Tolkien intended. I mean the mysteries in Tolkiens world make it more realistic give it added depth...if we knew everything there was to know about it, it would seem more like a story (albeit a complex one) and part of its beauty is the quality that bespeaks its not. I mean we don't know everything about our own.

Now Tom as a Vala incognito is always an interesting proposition .... mmmm

[TheRingBearer]

Yep I think Tom as well. Isn't he a god or something? that's why he isn't affected by the ring?

[Iarfirithwen]

Originally posted by TheRingBearer
Yep I think Tom as well. Isn't he a god or something? that's why he isn't affected by the ring?
Definitely a argument for why he wouldn't be a Maiar since for instance Gandalf is affected by it. Thats part of the reason I entertain the idea he might be a Vala incognito ;) Or something else entirely ... oh I love a mystery *rubs hands together* :grin:

[Lastelf]

Hey guys, new to this forum but I have been on others. Ain't this sooo kewl!?? I can't belive after all the years reading the great Prof's work and trying to explain to the unenlightend how great this stuff is...and BAM PJ goes and turns it into 3 Epic movies! Wow the end IS near Which I don't care as long as we make it to the Return. Anyway I think I read somewhere, maybe the Appendex that Treebeard was the Oldest! That Tom was before the first acorn, hmmmmm. Tom is an enigma....Not human not elf not Vala or Maiar, I like the theroy that he's Illuvatar but personally I think its Tolkien himself! I mean think about it before fist acorn (of thought) of ME, or even Arda! Kinda outlandish but its as good as any other theroy I've heard. Kinda fun to think he acually wrote himself into the story! I'm sure someone will post with undisputable proof that it is not JRRT But thats my ahhh Theroy and I'm stickin to it!

[Mirkgirl]

Welcome, Lastelf... you might want to post in the welcome forum in order to get a proper welcome (-:

I don't support the theory that TB is Tolkien himself, tho I think there's a part from what Tolkien was, or wanted to be in every character he wrote... and as TB started as a favourtite family doll maybe there's a bit more of the authors life into that charecter, but I yet I don't think it was tolkien himself... as I said the only theory about Tom that makes sense for me is "side-effect of the Flame Imperishable" hehe...

For Treebeard I don't think his title of the eldest ever meant to mean older than Bombadil... Tom is beyond comparison IMO

[Polly Sandybanks]

I believe Tom is older than Treebeard, even if both of them are probably very very old. I think Tom once said that he was there before the forest, which would probably include Treebeard. !?!? It's an interesting question though.

[Adunauriel]

I voted that Tom was older then Treebeard... Atleast that's the way I understood it from the books...:thumbs:

[Elf angel]

Tom. He's like father earth or something..

[Tar-Minyatur]

There have been 9 votes for Treebeard and noone speaking up for old Fangorn, but I will change that.
Isn't it clear that Treebeard is the eldest creature in all of Middle-Earth, according to the books? This would suggest that Tom Bombadil is not a creature, but a different entity altogether. If he is a god, then can we even begin to compare his age to the age of anything in Middle-Earth.
I assume from LOTR that Treebeard was in Middle-Earth from the beginning of the Years of the Trees, and Bombadil couldn't have existed in the same way we think of Treebeard existing until this time, too.
I admit, however, that Bombadil existed in some other form before the creation of Arda, but not as a being in the same way as Treebeard, so it is a difficult question to ask, IMHO.

P.S. - The Question may lie in the definition of eldest

[Catz]

lol so in other words Tar-Minyatur you DO think Toms older, tho you voted for Treebeard lol what he is isnt at question here......simply who is the older....and Tom i think is def that.......
lol and i dont think the doll that TB was based on was all that loved.....one of the boys tried to stuff it down the toilet once roflmao
:catz:

[Lalaith]

I would assume that Tom is older - but we have no idea when he was created. Tolkien intended him to be an enigma, much as he intended the fate of men to be a mystery - so that there couldn't be any clear cut parallels with Christianity, other beliefs, etc.. but I believe that Tom is the oldest, predating Elves, Stars, etc.
I think that the Ents can be dated back to when Aule made the Dwarves though. Yavanna was worried that because Aule made the Dwarves in secret, without telling her, these new beings would have no love for her creations - trees, flowers, etc. So, it came about that a new sort of creature - Ents - wandered the forests of Arda, as a result of her pleas to Iluvatar.

[Tar-Palantir]

Well, in a meaning BOTH can claim the title Eldest. Treebeard is the Oldest living creature in Arda. And TB is the Oldest (and only) great enigma in Arda.
B.t.w. I really don't think that TB is a Valar incognito. He is probably a nature spirit sent to Eä before the Ainu. Think about that one! ;)

[Mirkgirl]

Well I don't think its the title... as the poll's q is "The older of the two".. its just who was in Middle-Earth before the other... which you do think is TB...

[Winyaél Greenleaf]

I think it's treebeard, but TB is really a mystery!

[Periannath]

Tom Bombadillo is a singing coconut. But in the council of elrond they say that he was the first. i can't remember treebeard being expressly named THE eldest. just ONE of the eldest. Or am I wrong.(possibly and most likely)

[Bonos-Girl]

lol a singing coconut! hehe i voted Tom....i don't think you can define eldest in any other wya than just emaning eldest.....if it had a condition after that then it would change the meaning...but as it stands it just means eldest.

[Narya]

i think tom is the eldest, and i agree with the point others have made, treebeard is the eldest of the trees, but tom is older than treebeard. Tolkein actually wrote "The adventures of tom bombadil" if anyone wants to fork over $300 at amazon you can buy yourself a copy. (i think the last publication was in the '70s) i havent read it but it would most definetly be an interesting read.

[Elvenwanderer]

I read somewhere (no, not in my dad's books) that Tom was the creator of the trees. That would incinuate something then, wouldn't it? TB is the eldest, IMO

[Mirkgirl]

Well Tom is ancient and deffinately older than Treebread, but he hasn't created the trees... the trees were created by Yavanna:
The Silmarillion, Chapter 1 "Of The Beginning of Days"
And when Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established, in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city, Valmar of many bells. Before its western gate there was a green mound, Ezellohar, that is named also Corollairë; and Yavanna hallowed it, and she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power, in which was set all her thought of things that grow in the earth. But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. In that time the Valar were gathered together to hear the song of Yavanna, and they sat silent upon their thrones of council in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom near to the golden gates of Valmar, and Yavanna Kementári sang before them and they watched.
And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tail, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder Days are woven.

[Tar-Minyatur]

Just go to your local library and check out TAOTB instead of paying some insane amount online.

[Lasgalen]

This is a very interesting question. Treebeard would be the oldest according to the Sil (as T B is not mentioned there). Part of the prob with T B's age is not knowing exactly what he is.

-Lasgalen

[Gil Galad]

well i voted for Tom of course, because i kinda get an out of this world vibe from him as if he came from outside the world when it was first made and made his home there. whch would make him older then anything in Arda

[Tar-Vanimelde]

I couldn't decide so I read all you posts and have chosen Tom, mainly because of the point that Yavanna made the ents; I feel Tom was not made but was part of the creation of Arda, not Aniur or Maia but something in his own right, sung unnamed buy Illuvatar as he created men and elves.