Food for thought

[Meaghan]

Hum! Very weird this article sounds! So Bush is the good one, like the fellowship, and the poor Iraqis and Muslims in general are the bad ones and orcs! Lovely article. So Washington Post! I would say it is rather time for the American press to undertand the meaning of freedom of speech. As for the war crime, the journalist should open a law book to read the definition of it. I am afraid he might be sooo disappointed: there is a war crime when laws of conflict (Geneva Conventions) are violated like killing prisonners. However as far as I remerber those Convetions were ratified in 1949! Sorry: I fear the Rohan ridders might not have of heard of it yet! There is a gap of time!!!
But of course it is in fashion now to misuse international regulations in order to crush the axis of evil and all those terrorists. I wish they would at least leave LOTR in peace and use other propaganda medias. it is a shame.
I sound bossy but this kind of article make me jump!

[Miruvor]

Bush = the ringbearer! How disgusting.
Bush Is clearly stoking the fires to build machines and wheels of industry and war. (Putting more perks and tax money back into the hands of the rich so we, the poorest, will have to cover the load of supporting the government) He no longer cares for living things. (Putting the management of the government forested areas in the hands of civilians who do not care about conservation.) He is wearing his white robes (religious patronage) and using his power (of his tower of the presidency) and persuasive Voice of rhetoric to provoke the peoples of the USA -- "TO WAR!"

[Ariarwen]

Look, the bad guys start it, and they don't play by the rules. If they thought that we would discard the rules of civilized society and kick their butts hard, maybe they would think twice before attacking people. This goes for all bad guys, past, present and fictional.

[Aeron]

Most current bad guys who "start it" wouldn´t be in power now, if the US hadn´t put them there first of all. Thanks a lot for our last dictator.

[Miruvor]

Looks to me like Bush is dead set on starting this one. And he is bucking all the rules that most of the world is trying to live by (like negotiation, innocent until proven guilty, arrest with due process, etc. Calling other countrys by evil names thereby provoking them.)
As long as we hold on to an "Us vs. Them" attitude, we will always be on the verge of war. When we can understand and empathize with other peoples' pain or perception, then we have a chance for peace and to solve our differences peacefully.
(And those 'bad guys' can be handled under a legal system, rather than sending out 10,000 young men in uniform as paid assasins. The legal system would be like a smart weapon that targets the one bad individual. War is like napalming the whole countryside just to kill one little rabbit that is eating your garden.)

[Daisy Gamgee]

ok I agree on the part that most of the "bad guys" put in power by America. But thats no excuse for terroism. Those sort of guys won't sit round a peace table and talk - it won't happen. They've tried in Israel - its not working.
Iraq caused a bit of an uproar the other day when the weapons inspectors turned up unannounced - what was the big deal if they've nothing to hide?
I may sound like I'm pro war - I'm not.... and I may not know all the details of whats going on.....but does anybody really? Do the papers report the whole truth without sensatalism....I think not. Miruvor, yes Bush may be bucking all the rules that most of the world wants to live by....but not the guys who attacked America on its own soil....or the suicide bombers in a Westerners holiday paradise.....are they living by the same rules? I also agree that once we can understand and empthasise with other countries, we have a chance for peace, but as long as there is conflict religion and as long as there are false perceptions of religions, then there won't be peace.
This form of terroism is new to America - a country who thought it was pretty invincible. Its been going on for a while in England with the IRA and the troubles in Northern Ireland. Where I lived, within a couple of years there were 2 bombs. The last, in Manchester, where considering it was a SAturday, and the bomb was left in the middle of the shopping centre, thankfully nodoby was injured. The bomb a few years previously in Warrington shopping centre (another largish town in the North West) left bigger damage - people were killed, including children. The current talks aimed at devolution have yet again failed as most likely they couldn't agree.

In a perfect world these problems will be settled around a table.....then again in a perfect world we wouldn't have these problems.

[Catz]

yeah.....but lets be honest here..............is going to war with Iraq going to stop terrorism?
no............terrorists arent a country...they are formless and homeless......thats why terrorism is such a popular tool of the fanatic....and the US has bankrolled its share of terrorists in its time too..........so how does that work?
is it going to boost Bushes popularity?
yes.......historically in the US war has almost always improved the standing of the leader in question, as long as the economy improves
is it going to benefit the economy of the US?
yes......where the heck are all these extra weapons gonna come from?.......more manufacturing.......more jobs

Bush is using terrorism to boost his own position, and is subverting the patriotism of the average US citizen into nothing more than Jingoism

oh.......and to get back to the topic lol......i agree with Meaghan.......leave LOTR out of it
:catz:

[Aeron]

Your politics kill half a million Iraq children a year. is that not terrorism? You actively sponsored, prepared and aided the military coup in Iraq, because you couldn´t stand that general Kassim, the first man to introduce real democratic reforms in this county, gave the impulse to the creation of OPEC. You gave all the support to Saddam, and actively helped him to annihilate the slightest spark of opposition in his country, by massacre, torture and the most repulsive forms of oppression. You actively supported the torment of the Iraqui people, until you could be sure, that they would bow down to your favourite, and there was no power left in them to resist him. And now you dare torment this same battered people, in order to "drive them into causing Saddam´s demise", when the conditions become unbearable. September 11 is in the first place the day, when the US sponsored the massacre in Chile, when 10.000 people were killed by American henchment on the first three days alone, so the US could take down a president chosen by his own people and install their friend Pinochet instead. 10.000 people and ten thousands more killed over the next years with the most gruseome means, put at Pinochet´s disposal by his American friends. And you expect to impress the world with your 2000 dead? You sent specialists to teach torture methods, you produced and imported the necessary instruments, you encouraged and sponsored the most despicable forms of state terrorism. Terrorists? There is just one single country on this planet whose politics has ever demanded so many victims as to be officially condemned by the United Nations tribunal for terrorism, and that is the United States of America.

[Bonos-Girl]

I agree Aeron. bush is so kinda annoyed with iraq cos of terrorist attacks which most of the population aren't involved with.....so he goes and kills hundreds or thousands of people. of course...that obvously makes sense!

he doesn't seem to understand that in bombing iraq they would be doing a lot worse than those few terrorists that attacked the US.

[Keverzwijn]

Two wrongs don't make a right, you can't put out fire with fire. This war against Iraq or Afghanistan is pointless and it really saddens me to see that a guy like Bush is the pres. of the USA. To see that in these days civilised countries still declare war to each other for reasons like oil (let's be honest, that the point of the war on Iraq) or just satisfieing the voters. I don't agree with the these terrorists but I don't think much better about Bush. How hard is it to see that we are killing innocent people in these conflicts. This isn't a war between nations but between mentalities. And you can never win such a war...

[Meaghan]

I agree with most of you. But hat socked me also in that article is the use of culture (movie, books) and the Hollywood industry for propaganda and war purpose. I thought that belonged to other kind of regimes! This is not very democratic!

[Miruvor]

So right, Meaghan and Catz. I thought this thread would end in agreement about the distaste of using the LOTR as propaganda, but after Aeron's post I have one more thing to say. Aeron, many of us know of the evils caused to the world by the USA, and since you seem to be amongst those 'victims' please give us your ideas on what we SHOULD do, so we can write our congresspeople. So, what ARE the better paths we could take. I have already suggested mine, but people continue to rant the anger without giving suggestions for alternative paths. Bush and the American people who support him, seriously needs some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism so we can find a means to get out of this. In the mean time, I hope the rest of the world community can keep the pressure on him to follow Lawful means - and to give the UN the enforcement power it needs to back up international criminal laws of Human Rights abuse and Terrorism and, so that War does not have to be the only option. As for the 'Weapons of mass destruction' excuse - if we choose not to make THOSE illegal, then, every country has just as much right as any other to own them. (Opening another can of worms here.)

[Bonos-Girl]

ok...here's an alternative.....stop thinkin that the entire population of one country can be blamed for a terrorist attack.

you wnat another....how about....don't bomb until you are sure that it's the right thin to do.

don't look for war

know that these things can happen to you and don't think that you are all-powerful.

is that enough for you?

[Miruvor]

Those are great attitude changing ideas. I am constantly trying to change attitudes, but more immediate stategical things are what I was talking about.

Here is another lament I have about Bush, from the NY Times today. It frightens me that Bush is taking us in a backwards direction in his bid to reduce the power of the Federal gov. and give back tax dollars to the rich (mainly). The States then will just have to raise taxes to maintain the gov. functions thrown back on them, and each state will not have to be under the same cover of consistency!
States Fear Double Whammy From Tax Plan

A centerpiece of the president's economic plan is raising
alarm among state and local officials who say it could add to
the growing budget pressures on states and cities.

A step back towards a 'Confederacy of States' instead of a Federation?

[Bonos-Girl]

huh? what does that mean? I'm only 14....

[Daisy Gamgee]

Aeron, I'm afraid I don't really like your use of "you" in your post above - maybe its just me being a little touchy, as it was imediately under my post. But for a start there were many things you mentioned that the public, as far as I know were not aware of at the time. Secondly I don't think any one on this forum would "dare to torment the battered people" - please remember that the posters here don't want war with Iraq - it is the countries Government, and bar not voting for them next time around or voicing our distaste in the paper, we can't really prevent them from taking action - that is the job of the UN.

Catz, I agree about Bush using the war to boost their economy, which in turn will boost his popularity - there will be quite a few voters who will forget that Bush went to war when they have jobs and money again.

Miruvor, better paths? Trying to illeviate a country's poverty may be a start? Wider understanding of people's religion?Making sure the governments of the world listen to the UN. All countries should be made to declare what sort of weapons they have. Maybe total disarmament of nuclear and biological weapons.

oh yeah, keep LOTR out of it!!

[Meaghan]

Don't worry Bonos girl, sweetie! It is the story of the governement supporting the rich against the poor. And Unfortunately Miruvor this happens also in other countries.
I absolutely agree with both of you when it comes to legal means. I am also happy to notice that Miruvor lives in the US and that shows that the US people do disagree with Bush. And that is a beginning!

[Miruvor]

huh? what does that mean? I'm only 14....

Really? I'm surprised. You sounded Wise beyond your years.

Yes, Meaghan, I just hope eventually those sixty percent of the United States voters in the last election who voted either Democratic or Green Party, and who are just biding their time, do not fall into absolute complacency. it seems they must be disillusioned, to be letting Bush get away with his tactics. As someone mentioned, for the next two or may six years (God forbid), 'till we can vote him out, the WORLD COMMUNITY may have more influence to pressure Bush than his own citizens.

Bono's Girl - The original 13 colonies were a Confederation instead of a Federal type government. It failed miserably, but it is still an 'ideal' of the far right wing conservatives
(such as the Confederacy government of the southern states during the civil war)
because it means to them 'ruged individualism', 'self interest' , 'personal rights over civil rights' and 'diminished government' (verging on anarchy) - essentially, 'every body fend for yourself and who cares about the other guy' and 'might makes right'.

Anyway, whenever you are required to take an American History class, you'll learn about it.

[Orkybash]

Originally posted by Meaghan
Don't worry Bonos girl, sweetie! It is the story of the governement supporting the rich against the poor. And Unfortunately Miruvor this happens also in other countries.
I absolutely agree with both of you when it comes to legal means. I am also happy to notice that Miruvor lives in the US and that shows that the US people do disagree with Bush. And that is a beginning!


Oh trust me, there's plenty of opposition to Bush over here! (Including me!) I couldn't vote in the last election, but I'll be able to in a litle over a month, and rest assured that my vote is going to whoever is running against bush!

[Bonos-Girl]

thanks miruvor. I don't think we actually do american history although we may do a bit cos we do 20th century history.

[Meaghan]

Vive le peuple américain then! Translation: long life to the American people then!