The Essence of Myth

[Algamesh]

WarRingers,

The Silmarillion is a creation story that seems to have very familiar themes. When you read it, you can see bits and pieces of many different 'real' myths from all over the world.

I think that of all his works, the Silmarillion is the most deeply "religious". Along with creating a history, he created a dogma ... and for this, he borrowed from what he knew.

Personally, I can see large influences from the Hebrew (Old Testament), Norse, Finnish, and Roman stories.

What do you see when you read it? Anything different?

Algamesh
He rides from the North like swift wind upon the grass ...

[PrinceImrahil]

Dogma's on Comedy Central next Sunday....hehe

Tolkien did a great job of creating the religion of Middle Earth's inhabitants.

By the way, I like ur name for us, WarRingers.

[Algamesh]

Well ... I see Tolkienites used all over the place so I though, "Why not call ourselves something that relates to the community ..." WarRingers just came to mind. I like the sound of it too!

[Mirkgirl]

I tend to see Tolkien in other works, rather than the opposite... shame on me

[Walter]

I think it is quite evident, that Tolkien has been influenced by many an "Epos of Old" when he was writing his own mythology that have become the Tales of the First and Second Age of Arda and have been published mainly in the Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales and the Lost Tales.

Early in his childhood, Tolkien had already been fascinated by languages, he started to "invent" his own secret languages pretty early and later he has shown interest in almost every language he came across. First the "classical" languages Greek and Latin, but also French, German and Norse, and later he became greatly interested in Old and Middle English as well as Welsh. And - of course - he was reading, what was written in those "Old languages": poems and/or some form of mythology. Hence he has been studying the finnish Kalevala, the nordic Edda (The Poetic or Elder Edda as well as the Prose or Younger Edda), Old and Middle English poems (like the Crist of Cynewulf, where he gathered the idea for his Eärendil, or the Beowulf) as well as the more "familiar" German-Mythology (the Nibelungen-Saga), Greek-Mythology, and the Christian-Mythology as it is found in the Old Testament.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Tolkien did a great job of creating the religion of Middle Earth's inhabitants.

This isn't quite fair to say, Tolkien never stated in any of his work that there was a set religion in Middle Earth, besides Melkor worship. There really wasn't a religion in Middle Earth, just a knowledge of certain things. The men perhaps held some sort of religion as men tend to do to explain that which they do not know early in the development of civilization.

It's more like a history than a religion.

I personally see just about every influential mythology there is in the ancient civilizations in Tolkien's writing, and it's understandable considering his influences and his career interests. Influences help shape everyone's work in some way or the other that's irrefutable. I'd say I see a combination of Greek and Christian the most out of all the mythologies and beliefs of past and present people's, what with the epic grandure and the "angelic" Valar, that at the same time resemble in essence, the gods of Olympus, each Vala taking on a aspect of Arda much like the gods did.

[Algamesh]

Well, actually the Numenoreans considered the "Pillar of Heaven" or the Meneltarma as a sacred place dedicated to Eru. The early men of the West did practice a form of worship although we aren't really privvy to a lot of details concerning rituals and observances.

I think the Elves, being immortal, needed no religion. They knew that untimely death would lead them to the Halls of Mandos without the requirement of atonement. The Elves probably considered themselves on par with the Vala and Maia in some way.

I think that the issue of mortality is a key factor where religion is concerned. The Men were doomed to physical death and their Fate was unknown. Hence, they petitioned a higher power (be it Iluvatar or Morgoth) to secure their afterlives ...

[Gandalf the Grey]

* a familiar figure enters, cloaked in grey and encircled by rising pipeweed smoke in a matching shade *

Hail and Well Met, Algamesh.

* bows a greeting *

Although the article passage I am about to quote was written in response to LOTR, I feel that it applies equally well to the Silmarillion. ... Especially since the whole thrust of the article is "True Myth" as envisioned by the good Professor Tolkien himself.

The following quote is from an article called "True Myth: The Catholicism of The Lord of the Rings." The article, written by Joseph Pearce, appeared in the December 2001 issue of The Catholic World Report:

"When Lewis and Tolkien had first met, Lewis was beginning to perceive the inadequacy of the agnosticism into which he had lapsed, having previously discarded any remnants of childhood Christianity. By the summer of 1929 he had renounced agnosticism and professed himself a theist, believing in the existence of God but denying the claims of Christianity. Essentially this was his position when, in September 1931, he had the discussion with Tolkien and their mutual friend, Hugo Dyson, which was destined to have a revolutionary impact on his life. After dinner the three men went for a walk and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths were 'lies and therefore worthless, even though breathed through silver.'

"No," Tolkien replied, "They are not lies."

"Tolkien argued that, far from being lies, myths were the best way of conveying truths which would otherwise be inexpressible. We have come from God and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily toward the true harbor, whereas materialistic 'progress' leads only to the abyss and to the power of evil.

"Building on this philosophy of myth, Tolkien and Dyson went on to express their belief that the story of Christ was simply a true myth: a myth that works in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened. Whereas pagan myths revealed fragments of eternal truth through the words of poets, the True Myth of Christianity revealed the whole truth through the Word himself. The poets of pagan antiquity told their story with words, but God, the omnipotent Poet, told the True Story with facts -- weaving his tale with the actions of real men in actual history.

"Tolkien's arguments had an indelible effect on Lewis. The edifice of his unbelief crumbled and the foundations of his Christianity were laid. Twelve days later Lewis wrote to a friend that he had 'just passed on from believing in God to definitely believing in Christ -- in Christianity. ... My long night talk with Dyson and Tolkien had a good deal to do with it.' "

-- Catholic World Report
December 2001

[Algamesh]

Gandalf the Grey,

Very good information in your post. I've recently been looking into these topics that concern spirituality and the relevance of Tolkien's works.

Do I know you from elsewhere? ;)

[Maedhros]

You can also find a lots of paralellism between the Silmarillion and the Greek Mythos. Take for example the Tale of Turin and compare it with the greek tragedy called Oedipus King. Wow, there are so much alike.
You can see it in his letters too.
I don't have my books here so i can't give an exact quote.

[Catz]

of course myth is truth (however, what that truth is, is open to debate )......that is its power.....without that touching of the spirit and the emotions, a story remains just that......a story.....but myth.....myth resonates....all tales spin their roots back to the first story....to myth...to tales told around a fire that shielded people from a dark and frightening world.....some touch the archetypes, are so deeply ingrained in the human pysche that they have remained with us thru millenia....and it was these that Tolkien used as source to weave a new tale...and i do believe that it is this that has given his work much of its power....and i think that as a classical scholar, many of the influences on Tolkein were almost unconcious.....anyone who has studied old stories and myths, knows that there are no new stories, just re settings and re inventions of old ones.....you do get into a mindset where these influences colour your work, in a very natural way...
And i do agree with you Oro on the influences....there are echoes of every European myth cycle i have ever read in the works, and thats what makes them so rich for me
:catz:

[Algamesh]

To add further to this thread ...

I came accross a passage in the Two Towers the other day that adds value to this discussion.

Frodo and Sam have just been led to Faramir's hideout and they are getting ready to sit down for supper. The Men of Gondor all stand and face the West in a moment of silence and Faramir explains that it is a "tradition" of his peoples and that surely the Hobbits must have a similar practice. At this, I believe it was Frodo who felt very "untutored and rustic" I believe.

Anyway ... we are shown here some form of reverance that the Men still held for the Valar I guess. What must the 3rd Age peoples have thought about the Valar? It had been many years prior that the Valar had any personal interaction with any of the peeps of ME. Obviously, the inhabitants didn't feel a need for redemption so what was the driving force for any religion in Tolkien's works? The early Numenoreans were grateful to the gods for the giving of Numenor but later, they resented the gods for "withholding" immortality. Religious concerns in LOTR are not non-existent but the questions relating to them are abundant dontcha think? ;)

[Catz]

actually, i always assumed that was a gesture of respect for Numenor that was, and was a natural thing for men, the descendants the Numenoreans to do, rather than an aknowledgement of the Valar...ive never found that much of overt religious parallels in LOTR, the links are much deeper, more expressed in actions and value systems, (morals if you like) expressed by the characters...what i mean is, the characters are not Christian, but the values they hold...(the good guys anyway) are indistinguisable from the moral code that a Christian attempts to live by(note i didnt say, religious code...theres a difference), so the christian values are there, if not the christian faith...
:catz:

[Algamesh]

Catz ... I didn't even consider this! Maybe your interpretation is more correct. It quite possibly have been a reverence for ancestry as opposed to a pantheon. So ... to carry your statement further ... do you believe that the Men of Gondor held reverence for ONLY their ancestors? Have the Men of Westernesse forsaken the gods completely in the 3rd Age? Looking for a response from catz but any other insights are appreciated!

[Catz]

perhaps less in Gondor than elsewhere....after all, in Gondor they were very proud of their heritage as decendants of Numenor...and i think part of that comes from the fact that their ancestors were in direct contact with the Valar, and in a way took over some of the roles of gods in their society...but its really not explored in any detail. I dont think the Valar had been forgotten, just pushed to the background, i guess...
:catz: