Elrond: The Idiot

[PrinceImrahil]

Something I don't understand....
Elrond brought Isildur up to Orodruin get him to thow the ring into the fire. Isildur refused, and since all living things(cept orcs) were indiretly on the line, why didn't that stupid elf just push Isildur in??!!verymad verymad

[Mirkgirl]

Maybe it's my mistake, but in the books there is no such moment...
All that is said there is that Cirdan and Elrond have been trying to persuade Isuldur to destroy it he refused and he was attacked on his way to Rivendell where Elrond positively would have tried to persuade him again.... just time played a bad joke

[PrinceImrahil]

:embarras: :embarras: :embarras:
hehe....guess you caught me ranting on...good job mirky...:embarras: :embarras:

[Falmon]

Even had they come to the Cracks of Doom, murdering Isildur is still a very controversial idea. Is it justifiable to kill another human being for the sake of the world? And could he have, anyway?

[Algamesh]

I have often wondered how Isildur could just walk away with the most evil weapon in the world and no one stop him. I mean, during the trilogy, you better believe that had Saruman gained possession of the Ring that the forces of good would have descended on Isengard swiftly. What gave Isildur the right to claim the Ring of the Enemy ... was everyone ignorant to its malignance in the 2nd Age?

Maybe it had to do with the fact that Elendil was slain and that it was the son's right to choose "weregild" of his choice. Who knows?

One thing is for certain ... I'm glad that things worked out the way they did ;) !

Algamesh
"He rides from the North ... like swift wind upon the grass ..."

[Catz]

well yeah...i think many of them were ignorant of the rings malignance( lovely word;) )...im sure that many of the High Elves knew that Sauron had forged a great weapon, but as to whether or not that was the one...i dont know that they knew for certain......all they knew was that it was evil....it came from the hand of the dark lord...how could it not be?....but Isildur was proud....and stressed, remember, when he took it....both conditions conducive to allowing the ring to take him very quickly...i think by the time the ring was recognised, it was already way too late....besides, it was the way of the ring to cause good folk to do evil....if Elrond had shoved Isildur in, (even tho Mirkys right....it never happened in the book :grin: ) then you can be sure the ring would have survived....and the tale might have been about a half elven dark lord, who was once a lore master and healer....
:catz:

[Mirkgirl]

Ok, I consider that as a movie flaw (teehee I love those ;) ). In the movie it looked very idiotic not to just push Isuldur (after all the ring would melt before Elrond gets corrupted) but in the book to try to take the ring with force would have led to new dark lord.

[Gil-Galad]

Yes. Besides, elfs are good and all, and would never push another human in in cold blood. Thats un elfy. I am mad that isldur never threw tahe ring in, it made me die in vain. Well, do you all think elendil and gil died in vain?

[Bonos-Girl]

no-one ever dies in vain, something comes out of even the most normal person dying.

[PrinceImrahil]

well, In my opinion, Gil-Galad did die in vain. Harder to say for Elendil, since his sword went to Aragorn after many long years and lead the armies of the west against Sauron during LOTR. He at least had something to leave behind to undo the evil ofhis son's corruption(kinda). All Gil-Galad had was Vilya, which would have lost its power if Isildur had ast the ring into Orodruin, and lost its power anyway when the ring was destroyed by Frodo/Gollum.

[Falmon]

In the movie it looked very idiotic not to just push Isuldur (after all the ring would melt before Elrond gets corrupted) but in the book to try to take the ring with force would have led to new dark lord.

Perhaps Elrond would have to be corrupt in order to push Isildur into the Cracks of Doom, even to destroy Sauron. It's murder.

Yes. Besides, elfs are good and all, and would never push another human in in cold blood.

There are a few famous Elves I believe would, and I am sure many unnamed ones. The most famous would probably be Fëanáro and Maeglin.

[A! Elbereth]

All i can say to this is that I was ok with Islidur walking away, sure it was stupid, but what else would PJ do to give people the Idea of Mount Doom and such...

[Mirkgirl]

Originally posted by Falmon
Perhaps Elrond would have to be corrupt in order to push Isildur into the Cracks of Doom, even to destroy Sauron. It's murder.

That's a bit too deep for someone who is watching the film only, even I had a problem with it, no matter that I imagined the real (books') situation....

In the film there is the real sense of haste, so the decision of Elrond does look idiotic.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Well if Isildur did destroy the ring when the chance arose, we wouldn't have a LotR now would we? I like the fact that Isildur didn't toss it into Orodruin, it makes for a much more believable human character. The thing about Tolkien is that he didn't write the happy fairytale where everyone lives happily ever after, he wrote serious, and at many times, tragic fantasy that demands an emotional response.

I believe it was mentioned before, but I'd like to reiterate. No one back then had any clue that the ring would cause such a commotion. Isildur was human, and what would you expect from someone who lost both his father and brother to an evil dark lord, he'd want payback, a weregild.

[Algamesh]

I have to disagree ... the Elves, at least, knew the power of Sauron's ring. Remember when Sauron first placed the ring upon his finger, the Elven ringbearers immediately percieved him and knew his mind. They then concealed their rings so that he could have no power over them in that way. I believe that Gil-galad & his hosts knew that the ring should have been destroyed. Even if they didn't know the full power bestowed to the Dark Lord's trinket they probably surmised that it was of great importance to Sauron ... what better reason to rid the world of it.

But, as you said ... no LOTR without Isildur's escape ...

BTW ... greetings Orofalcion ... Mae Govannen!

[Mirkgirl]

The main factor IMO was the time, Elrond and the others who knew about the ring and its power thought they had enough time to persuade Isuldur to destroy the ring or even to find another way. After all, it was a difficult and important war and they didn't want to act in haste as the Enemy was harmless for the time being. Isuldur was on his way to Rivendell when the orcs attacked him, this was a bad coincidence (or not coincidence) that's all.

[Illuvatar]

WoW!! Thread back on topic!! I'm impressed!!:p

It's seems that I'll have to agree with most of what's been said so far.

Elrond and the others who knew about the ring and its power thought they had enough time to persuade Isuldur to destroy the ring or even to find another way.

Agree, it was very apparent from both the books and the movie that the elves had a better insight to the power of the ring, and what may become if it was NOT destroyed. Most elves according to Tolkien (and some more than others), could see farther than the eyes AND minds of normal men. I believe that Elrond was one of those, along the lines of say Melian, who could see far into the future and the "doom of Middle Earth".

Isildur was human, and what would you expect from someone who lost both his father and brother to an evil dark lord, he'd want payback, a weregild

Also agree, and to further illustrate my above point, humans on the other hand, only with RARE exception had the gift of sight. So therefore the immediate focus would be the taks at hand, and for Isildur, it was not only revenge for his loss, but POWER!!

In my mind, if it came down to it and I was Elrond with all of my host surrounding the mountain and in the plain, the battle would have escalated to Elf against Man, for he would not have left there alive with that ring!! No way!! No how!!

But as been said.....No Ring......No Sauron...No Story..... :stomper:

[Algamesh]

One other matter that may have played a part ... Elrond and Isildur were kin! Remember Elrond's brother Elros is Isildur's great-great-great-great ... you get the picture ... grandfather! ;)

[Pil]

:p

I didn't know he was on his way to rivendell! I wonder what would have happened if he had made it there!..... :huh: :)

[Ringwraith]

Originally posted by Falmon
Is it justifiable to kill another human being for the sake of the world?

Yes. No doubt on that. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have any doubts towards killing Isildur and saving Middle-Earth.

[Nessa]

lol Ringwraith!

I don't see why Elrond is scary, and I don't see why he's an 'idiot' either. I like him as a character. I think the problem is people are getting confused with movie Elrond, when this board is for literary discussion. Elrond in the book was kind and hospitable....... and I'm sure there's no actual moment when he had the chance to push Isildur into Mt. Doom, and I don't think he would have anyway. Just an opinion here....

[Narsil's weilder]

I thought of this when I first saw the movie. I would of done it...

[Pil]

:cuddles:

I agree that book-Elrond probably wouldn't have done it either.

[Lady Melody]

Well, put urself in Elrond's shoes...

Option one: Push that idiot imbecile Isildur into the lava

Effects:
1) Race of men and elves forever in war and divided, and whats left of Sauron's followers would have a breeze taking over Middle-Earth and kill its inhabitants including poor little Hobbits.
2) Get his *** hunted by men for a very HIGH ransom, and no peace for the elves ever again (related to no. 1)

Option two: Let him walk off and fight the evil another way...

Well, it worked, didn't it?:naughty:

[Daisy Gamgee]

I think that like Gandalf and galadriel, Elrond did not want to have an opportunity for the ring to come to him or him to take the ring - he was aware of the fact that, if he had the ring, it would end up turning him towards evil. If he had killed Isildur, he would have ample opportunity to claim the ring.

[Bonos-Girl]

mmm....i agree because elrond has a lot of power and it could easily be turned into evil by the ring....

[Narsil's weilder]

Even Elrond can't see all ends....

[Tar-Ancalimë]

OK the way I see it is this. Elrond is not an idiot.

In the books... this has been established... there was no such scene.

In the movie, I believe it was beyond Elrond's power to "push Isildur in." He did not have any weapons on him. Isildur was standing at the entrance and Elrond at the edge. (It would have been Elrond into the fire had he tried to push Isildur in by force.) This is my take on it, that it was simply not something Elrond counted on having to do when he "led Isildur into the heart of Mount Doom." Also, Elrond was only a herald in the battle. He didn't actually participate in the fighting. Destroying Isildur never occured to Elrond as a viable means to the end of destroying the ring.

Anyone think I may be right here?

[Narsil's weilder]

I think we should not be too eager to judge of life and death!

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Well but do you think what i said made any sense at all?

[Lady of Rohan]

I think maybe Elrond could have pushed him in or something, even if he goes down with it... he's still saving middle earth you know.

But in fact I think it's not justifiable to kill Isildur for what may happen or what may not happen. So many other possibilities an act like that would open up! Mind you, I'm not saying there are any circumstances under which taking his life would be justifiable, but these are especially not right.