The Doom of Orcs

[Tar-Palantir]

Almost the same question as with my other thread, the Doom of Dwarves, what happens with Orcs when they die?
Do they just disappear? Are they without a soul?

[Gwaihir]

I don't know... never read about it anywhere. My guess is that they would either go to a terrible place (something like hell?) or nowhere at all just like animals. hmmm... But they aren't altogether like animals. I hope they go to hell! Same thing with Trolls, Wolgs, etc! pfbbt Sorry I can't be of much help... :(

[Tar-Palantir]

That is why I asked. Noone knows about this!

Would that John would come here himself and answer, if even he knew.

[Lalaith]

This is a very tricky question and I think it hinges on how Orcs came into being...
If they are, in fact, mutilated and tortured Elves, surely what's left of their spirits goes to Mandos?
However, if they were corrupted into something wholly evil, then they would deserve no place in Mandos.
There's a theory they are just empty shells, devoid of spirit, hence their mad urge to kill. In ohter words, their Elven spirits fled to the halls of Mandos, and when they are slain, their bodies just decompose. I'm not sure that can be fully supported, as they seem to have their own personalities and desires indicating the presence of some sense of self.

Just a few thoughts, and a little garbled but I don't think it can be said for sure what happens to them

[Tar-Palantir]

Though it makes for an interesting discussion. I hope that more would write here!

[Finrod Felagund]

Sounds like a good theory

[ouglouk]

Orcs are elves torturated and mulitated, but i think Morgoth has not power to change doom of the creatures but only to change his physical form.
So orcs maybe go to Mandos halls, and even reincarned in elves or another orcs.

[Tar-Palantir]

Interesting, but I think that the first orcs that went to mandos when they died, tho I'm not so sure about the other orcs.

[Ithielnor]

I would agree with that except for the fact that we have orcs acting totally independent of their masters. And holding a fear of those masters. If their elvish souls had left them when they "became" orcs, and they had were transformed into "shells" without souls. I think we would see them as more mindless mechines that do only the will of their masters. Instead we see them wishing to steal from their masters (Gorbag tried to steal the mithril shirt from Sauron).

I've really got nothing to support these beliefs nor do I have an alternative theory to offer. Just thought I would add my two cents. :grin:

After rereading lalaith's post it looks like I'm just repeating her view that orcs have a mind and will and hence are not "empty shells".

[Tar-Palantir]

Well, any elaboration on a theory would be appreciated. Such as you have done Ithielnor. :thumbs:

[Lalaith]

I certainly have no complaints about people elaborating on my theories! I just like the support! :p

The doom of Orcs is so difficult to work out tho and it really hinges on whether you view them as Elf-type beings or not... I would be interested to know whether they are immortal -
ie if they are not on the receiving end of Aragorn's sword, Legolas' bow and whatnot, will they live for ever? Or are they so corrupted that they cannot continue indefinitely?

[Alatar]

This is a VERY good question. But i am afraid i have no idea of the answer.

But as Lalaith has clearly stated, it depends on what you veiw the 'orc' as, an Elf who has been mutalated and utterly destroyed of their soul. Or as Elves that have just been changed of apperance and mind.

But my personal belief is that they do not go back into the halls of mandros, i cannot picture such foul creatures there, even if they once had the soul of an elf, i think the soul of the elf has changed into the soul of an orc.

[Ereinion Gil-Galad]

Well orcs are mutilated elves or later multilated men as well so wouldn't they have the same doom as the men or elves they came from. Also Morgoth lost the ability to create when he became evil so there wouldnt be a way he could alter their doom.

[Voroturiön]

Thus quoteth the Silm:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." p. 50

So, I would have to say that yes, the Orcs have free-will and life. But, that surely their spirits do not go to Mandos. They must go into the Void, when they die.

Just my 2 cents.
-Voro

[Sindarin]

Although originally Elves, I doubt the souls of Orcs travel to Mandos when they die.

I believe their once pure spirits, now corrupted and iniquitous, wander trapped within a Void of the afterlife, just as Voroturion had earlier stated.

[Gil Galad]

Morgoth never had the ability to create life, so therefore the Orcs must av come from elves that were mutilated. ok well we also no that the valar have not the power to change the doom of the children of Illuvatar, so therefore unless the big man himself steps in they must go to Mandos, i guess we can never know until one who was in Mandos returns ammong us

[Algamesh]

Well ... I don't really think that in every Orc that there is an Elf just waiting to burst forth. We really don't have the details on this "breeding" project so it is hard to assume a whole lot about it. Personally, I feel that the Orcs simply do not have an afterlife. Afterlife is simply a gift of Eru and not something that is mandatory.

-Algy

[Gil Galad]

well the reason elves go to Mandos is to think about there lives , there victories and (mostly)failings. so wudnt the orcs just need more time then the elves in Mandos. oh by the way has any elf ever come back from Mandos