unprepared battles

[Roca Wear]

the battles in the lotr are always unprepared!! lol i hate that ... when i first saw the trailer for the two towers, i wasnt really a fan so i thought that it was like 10,000 orcs vs. 10,000 humans or something ... but nooooooooooooo lol

it would be better if it was prepared

[Orc]

Actually, in the book the battle of Helm's Deep is much more realistic. The defenders had over 2000 in fortress and given the description of the defensive position where only a limited number of attackers could aproach at any given time led to a long drawn out battle that was much better than in the movie.

[Roca Wear]

but who was the big hero who came at the end with gandalf?

[Orc]

In the movie it was Eomer, and in the book, I believe it was Erkenbrand

[Roca Wear]

i like the eomer deal better ..

[NoldoR]

i hated the HD in the movie

[Alatar]

I thought Helms Deep was one of the many good points in TTT book. Tolkein really makes it so your in the story watching everything oh and was it Erkenbrand who gandalf went to get on shadowfax?? i thought it was Eomer in both movie and book oh well.

[Orc]

Originally posted by Roca Wear
i like the eomer deal better ..

I'm not really sure that I do. I think I would have liked it better if Eomer had been at Helms Deep as there were some great conversations in there between him and Gimli or Aragorn. But, to bring in Erkenbrand would have ment that PJ had to introduce another character that would have had to been explained and therefor taken up precious screen time.

[Alatar]

yeah good point there Orc

[Gil Galad]

yeh it would have been impossible to make it as good as it was in the book. i liked the way they did in the book, and the Eomer was very good in helms deep, with the rest of them

[Alatar]

But as the saying goes, "The book is always better then the movie":)

Anyhow lets think of some other battles? anyone got any?

[Ithielnor]

The Battle on the eves of Fangorn Forest was fought in the daylight I believe. (Book ofcourse)
I think PJ did fine on that one. It was a consolidation move. It didn't mess things up to much to have the Riders attack at night.

[Alatar]

yes i never thought of that one, very good:thumbs: i thought it was great in the Movie but i really do need to see the movie again just to brush op the old memorylol

[Eorl the Young]

I liked that battle more in the book for it is much more sophisticated and realistic. I mean, it's just stupid that Eomer that Eomer just charges through their lines without any tactic at all (of course the movie Uruk Hai are even more stupid for they couldn't hear a charge of 2000 riders coming before they were already in their camp and they couldn't feel the ground shake even when 2000 horses with heavily armed and armoured riders were approaching them) In the book it's all more realistic: In stead of charging straight way, Eomer orders the pursout and his chavelryarchers thin out the Uruk Hai company. Then when the Uruk Hai arrive at Fangorn with many losses, he still doesn't charge but orders his scouts to sneak up the Uruk Hai watchposts in the cover of darkness and take out the guards one by one without showing teirselves, untill the Uruk Hai go crazy with anger and fear and then when they are confused he charges. At least this is what I rembered of Eomers tactics there. Please correct me if I'm wrong

[Gil Galad]

i though *** was only 100 or so horses and riders they had, it was very good in the book, and eomer new what he was doing weakening them before he attaked

[Eorl the Young]

I thought that as well Gil Galad, but later in the movie Aragorn sais something like: You have 2000 good men riding north as we speak. Of course this is stupid since Legolas at Helmsdeep sais: 300 (meaning Théoden's men) against 10 000 (meaning the forces of Isengard). That would mean that Gríma send away most of the Rohan! And besides, when Eomer's Éored surrounds the three hunters it didn't seem like 2000 men.

[Alatar]

Originally posted by Eorl the Young
I liked that battle more in the book for it is much more sophisticated and realistic. I mean, it's just stupid that Eomer that Eomer just charges through their lines without any tactic at all (of course the movie Uruk Hai are even more stupid for they couldn't hear a charge of 2000 riders coming before they were already in their camp and they couldn't feel the ground shake even when 2000 horses with heavily armed and armoured riders were approaching them) In the book it's all more realistic: In stead of charging straight way, Eomer orders the pursout and his chavelryarchers thin out the Uruk Hai company. Then when the Uruk Hai arrive at Fangorn with many losses, he still doesn't charge but orders his scouts to sneak up the Uruk Hai watchposts in the cover of darkness and take out the guards one by one without showing teirselves, untill the Uruk Hai go crazy with anger and fear and then when they are confused he charges. At least this is what I rembered of Eomers tactics there. Please correct me if I'm wrong
But you must remember he had to think about the people who didn't read the book and the valuble screen time, doing all that would of taken up a lot of screen time, and he had alot of stuff he had to try and squeeze into 3 hours:grin:

[Gil Galad]

Originally posted by Eorl the Young
I thought that as well Gil Galad, but later in the movie Aragorn sais something like: You have 2000 good men riding north as we speak. Of course this is stupid since Legolas at Helmsdeep sais: 300 (meaning Théoden's men) against 10 000 (meaning the forces of Isengard). That would mean that Gríma send away most of the Rohan! And besides, when Eomer's Éored surrounds the three hunters it didn't seem like 2000 men.

well i suppose they had to up his numbers so that he'd make a big deference, and since they didnt have Erkenbraun and his people coming from the ford they needed eomer to have a larger force , and perhaps the he collected more men on the road who had been defending places that suramans forces bypassed

[Alatar]

yes but with most movies you have to just presume why or how as alot of them have poor storylines.

But with compareing The Numbers of the battle and not following story line i think he had to do it to give the watchers a sense of "wow look at all those men this is gonna be cool" sort of feeling

[Gil Galad]

yeh i guess, but i really dont c whyu movies have to be made to a lower standard than books. like c'mon if they had of kept everything the same as the book, itd have made it ten times beter then it was

[Eorl the Young]

Yeah, like the Eomer to the resque thing. They could have just mentioned that their was an army fighting at the fords of the Isen instead of the Eomer banished thing. Then some good convesations could be held at HD between him and Aragorn. (those dicussiones at HD in the book are really good) besides they don't have to mention Erkenbrand... just let Gandalf bring back the lost Rohirrimarmy. Besides most of the visitors didn't recognize Eomer anyway. "Hey... that's the guy who gave Legolas, the knight and the little bearded chipmonk their horses at the beginning of the movie" verymad (some people don't even try to understand the movie)

[Morgothian]

Ya, I know how some people are mad how they changed HD. But for the most part I though it was an awesome batlle though they could have changed some things to make it better. Also tell me of I am wrong at the end there are 2000 horsemen that rescue them all at HD and kill all the Uruk Hai. But in the ROTK theoden says some where in the "muster of rohan" that the rohirrum was once made up of 6000 spears meanin 6000 men. So there are alot more then just the ones that were at Helms Deep. So meaning there will proly be alot in the battle of the Pelennor fields in rotk.

[Morgothian]

This is how I think they should have done HD. Theoden retreats to HD with about 1200 men from Edoras when they get to HD they meet up with about 500 more men all ready there. then they fight the battle. By the end there are about 200 or 300 men left with about 4000 Uruk Hai left. Then finally Gandalf returns with the 2000 riders to finish off the last of the Uruk Hai. But I also kinda like the fact how the elfs came, I know its not in the book but its just cool to see them fight maybe just not quit as many could have came just the ones on the upper wall and thats it. I think that If that was the way they did it I think it would have been more cool.

[Gil Galad]

but in the movie they say something about there being only 300 in helms deep to defend it, i think? and 10000 of sarumans force. also did theodens son get a mention, because i taut it stupid the way Theoden was completly broken by wormtongue, from an xcceptionally brave warior to a coward and then returns to the warior just like that

[Eorl the Young]

Well.. it's quite rushed.. which is a pity for I had hopedd that they would make the transformation quite slowly: Every shot a little bit of his grey hair dissapairs and every scéne he would look a little bit younger... then at Helmsdeep he would look about as old as Gandalf and he would look fit to battle again and his fightingspirit would have returned for the most... and then at the final shot he looks like the way he does in TTT after Gandalf rescued. This is how I would have done it. But to stay with the topic: I would have liked to see more discussions about the atctics just like i the book. In the book Aragorn and Eomer discuss the tactics often. In the movie they only worrie about the ammount of men.

[Alatar]

well if they had more men they could pull of some tactics, but when your outnumbered by thousands it can be hard to even attempt a tactic

[Gil Galad]

i dissagree, its when ur so outnumbered that tactics become more important

[Morgothian]

Not all the battles are unprepared remember the prologue that was like a even match.

[Narisunell]

Originally posted by Eorl the Young
Besides most of the visitors didn't recognize Eomer anyway. "Hey... that's the guy who gave Legolas, the knight and the little bearded chipmonk their horses at the beginning of the movie"

little bearded chipmonk? luv the description!! lol lol roflmao

anyways, i think its pretty cool not having the battles prepared for. it sort of... makes it a bit more interesting. altho i don't see why PJ couldn't have simply stuck to the story on some parts, as have been said before. plus it's a bit stupid that out of 10,000 uruks, not one heard a bunch of horses rushing down toward them. it could've been a tad more realistic.

Uruk- *chops head off an elf*
Other Uruk- *does the same*
(this continues for a minute, and when a horse rides right up to them..)
Uruk- hey, look! a horse and a guy with a sword!!

:rolleyes: it's just... stupid.

[Eomund]

yes, in the book it all was different...2000 riders...pointless remakin...100 could have tsken them also...

[Gil Galad]

i the book it was about 2000 unmounted men if i recall correctly, and that would explain why they were not heard, but still it wos slack planning from saruman not to have some defence for his flanks

[Eomund]

all defence was to hold back the archers and they had backs towards the woofds so Erken rode over them...