Who was the best at Tactics?

[Alatar]

Yo:flamer::battle:

Who do you think was the best at useing tactics to combat the forces of mordor or any other enemy?

[Alatar]

Maybe no one likes my poll...............

[Alatar]

nup nup i would think that they dont coondron.

maybe we should go get some coke.....it is prrreeessssiiooouussss truely

[Alatar]

Coke'a'Cola that is lol i dont want people thinking im on drugs:S

[Saruman]

Sorry to interrupt this conversation.;) .
The forces of evil have the best tactics, in my opinion.

[Sindarin]

What about the Elves?

Oh, well...In either case, I voted for Aragorn. He's a Ranger who knows his stuff about military combat.

[Alatar]

ya well with the Elves they don really get mentioned for there Tactics in either Book or Movies *so far*.

Where as The ones i have displayed play a more active roll with Tactics on the Lord Of The Rings triology.

And yes Aragorn did do some very good tactics in the book, With armies and without armies:thumbs: good choice.

Also The Dark Forces ya they did do some very devious and sly tactics but in the end it dont matter how there done just how it turns out ay.

[Thomas Baggins]

I have decided to vote, well that's about as obvious as who know's what but anyway I voted for Aragorn, cause........well you know he's just the man. Actually I think that he did have the best tactics of all the people listed except maybe the Dark lord and Co. but then they did lose in the end so I geuss Aragorn is the best to vote for in the anyhow.

sorry if my reasoning confuses you but I'm a habitual practioner of radomness. roflmao :p

[Tar-Palantir]

IMO in LOTR i think that Glorfindel would be the best tactician, but of the selection here I voted for Aragorn.

[Finrod Felagund]

Tar-P, I agree, Elrond also had some command experience
But of the choices, I think Sauron probably had the most experience

[Alatar]

yes well in referance to the brilliant minds of the first and second age i didn't put any of them because there are people here who have not read the books out side of the three LOTR books so it would be a bit hard for them to pick because the LOTR trillogy is set in the third age.

But still there were some very good tactics put into place in ages past like The Battle of Sudden Flame that was one of the best tactics to rid of a seigelol

[Finrod Felagund]

Yep, I would say that rivers of molten lava and fire have a tendency to run people off

[Alatar]

lol yaroflmao "ay look theres a river of smoldering lava can we go and play in it plllleeeaaasseee lol"

[Sauron]

:flamer: Sauron :flamer:

[Thomas Baggins]

"Za dashu snaku Zigur, Durgbu nazgshu, Durgu dashshu!"
Hail Sauron, Lord of The Rings, Lord of The Earth.

I just thought that was neat I still think Aragorn's the best at tactics. :)

[Alatar]

lol that was pritty neat:thumbs:lol

[Periantari Andruil]

i don't think that the Dark Forces had the best tactics because they ultimately failed in what they sought to do... they wanted to get the Ring and they let it slip through their fingers...
in my opinion, Gandalf has the best tactics because he knew to keep Sauron's eye fixed upon them instead of looking into Mordor where Frodo was approaching...

but i voted for Aragorn because i respect his opinion to take the Paths of the Dead in order to summon the help of the dead in this war...

but no, i do not think that the Dark Forces knew what they were doing because if they did, with their sheer numbers that without a doubt outnumber the Men, they would have defeated all the Free Folk of Middle Earth, instead in their folly, they let the one thing that they coveted slip through their fingers...

into Mount Doom.

[Alatar]

Well said.

But the Tactics of the Dark Forces were good. But the people who he tried to use tactics on were in the end beatter at it then he was.

[Fëanáro]

The Evil forces had the best tactics! but you see, the evil can't win then it's not a good story :D

[Gil Galad]

well if you just look at LOTR in issolation, then Gandalf was the best tactician. but from the list it was Sauron, even tho he lost he still had beter tactics.but i dont think that there was any great tactics in LOTR except for Gandalfs use of gondor and Aragorn as a distraction. now Morgoth there was a chpa with effective tactics, altho so did Meadhros. but now that i think of it, Morgoth kept under estimating his enemies and never made any provision for an assault from the west

[Thomas Baggins]

I agree with you Gil-Galad I think Meandros also had good tactix Morgoth's also were good cept the things you already mentioned.

[Alatar]

Ya i would think Morgoth one of the best, he had a habbit of countering tactics used by his enemy.

[Gil Galad]

oh yeh definitly the way he smashed up the league of Meadhros with treachery and all that, and the taunting of the elves on the western front until soem of them charged

[Alatar]

yeah he used there anger and pride to his own advantage, but still he did lose alot of orcs, wolfriders, balrogs in that battle even if his tactics were successful

[Gil Galad]

but u have to remember, he cared litle for them, especially the orcs , evil men and wolves. the Balrogs and the Dragons he lost in that battle, he may have regretted but in the end they were a little price to pay (he thought) to be rid of the noldor. although if he had used his forces wiser he mite have been able to resist the assault from the west a little beter

[Alatar]

yeah moaybe even survived it, But anyway who else was good at tactics?? Anyone got any more for us to dicuss??

[Gil Galad]

how about the tactics of the war against the wain riders, how did you think people fared in that

[Narisunell]

go Sauron. :mmmm: i voted Sauron cuz even tho he lost, he had the best tactics. Evil can't win, it's just not right. (except in Fanfic... hehe... :flamer: lol )

over all, Illuvatar was the best, tho. He is the one in control, and could easily wipe the world of all living things. he was the one who decided who would win in the end.

After Illuvatar comes Gandalf.

But of the list, definately Sauron.

aragorn followed a prophesy. Sauron made up his own plans.

just my oppinion.

[Gil Galad]

i dont think u can really, say that Illuvatar had good tactics, he didnt really do much, plus he's all powerful, so that kinda negates the need for tactics doesnt it

[Narisunell]

good point, but still, Iluvatar would have had the future planned, which means he'd have tactics. kinda like a small boy would plan out how the war between his G I Joe's would end, the boy being all powerful. (why do i keep relating things to real life situations? :mmmm: ) that is like Iluvatar. In a way, he was the one who actualy made the tactics, and he helped the ones on ME to see them.

[Morgothian]

Well I would say Aragorn and not Evil cause If I was Saroun I would have seent much more orcs to the Pelennor Fields not 1/4 of my whole army more like 3/4 so it would be a for sure victory cause If I was Sauron I would assume the worst. That all the men would come together and fight me so I would need a gigantic force to repell them away. Then as I was attacking gondor I would also send like 10,000 orcs west to attack Rohan and go into Eriador.

[Narisunell]

well, yea, good point, Morgothian. Sauron underestimated his foes, which leads to the downfall in most situations. never underestimate your foe... i dunno why the bad guys don't ever see that!

[Gil Galad]

bu the just didnt have the forces to do that, he had to sent forces against Lothlorien, and Dale/Lonely Mountain or else he wud have been open to attack from the north, or his forces wud have found them soronded and defending them selves from two sides.

[Narisunell]

hmmm.... well, maybe he should have bred a larger army. the larger the army the better chance he had, even tho he outnumbered his foes' armies. one elf/human could take out quite a few orcs/uruks, so even though he had more, he still should have bred a larger army.

[Gil Galad]

but he would have run into logistical problems then, itd be tough to get food and supplies etc to such a huge force

[Orc]

I think that Saroun's / Saruman's tactics were overall realatively sound and they held the upper hand until the Fellowship started mucking about in their plans.

Evil's plan of action was effective and would have prevailed if it hadn't been thwarted. Saruman held the west in check. Having placed Grima in Rohon, he efectively rendered them usless as a figthing force (except for Eomer and his followers) waiting for the right moment to strike by surprise. This front was thwarted by to major events that were initiated by members of the fellowhip. The first was Gandalf restoring Theoden of the strenght of his mind and spirit. This allowed Rohan to once again become an efective fighting force. The second (and probably more important) was Merry and Pippin getting the Ents involved. Had the Ents not attacked Isengard, Rohon would not have been able to send all of their troops to aid Gondor. They would have either had to attack Isengard directly - which would most likely have failed or leave a significant force behind to defend Rohan against the the forces of Isengard.

Saruon had sent fourth more than enough forces to crush Gondor. However, he was thwarted by members of the Fellowship as Saruman was. The forces of Rohan (recently freed from defending their homeland) arrived to help hold Saruon's forces at bay, though the forces of evil still held the upper hand and would have prevailed. Aragorn managed to command the Army of the Dead which allowed him to depose the Corsairs of Umbar and rally the people of southern Gondor to aid the forces at Minas Tirinth. Had neither of these forces arrived in time, Saruon would have easily taken Gondor.

Saruon was aware of of the fall of Isengard, especially after Aragorn openly challanged him through the planitir from Isengard. Saruon responded by deploying a large contingent of forces to intercept the Army of Rohan. He did not count on the Wild Men who allied themselves with Rohan and lead Theoden's forces through the woods avoiding the Orcs that lay in wait for them.

All of this brings to the forefront what I think is one of Tolkiens more important themes. That a small group of heroic individuals, no matter how seemingly insignificant (such as Hobbits) can perform actions that have world wide consequences. Or as the Unknown Soldier (from the old commic books, though I doubt if any of you younger folks remember him) always said "The right man, in the right place, at the right time, can do a lot; maybe even win a war."


:Orc:

[Narisunell]

i couldn't have said it better, Orc.

Gil- well, he could have made them live off the humans they had killed. or, starved them. i imagine they could live for a while without food, and Sauron or Saruman would definately be some to do something as cruel as that.

[Hobbit]

Maybe they can live for a while without food, but that would weaken them. It's true like you said Narisunell, that it would make them more bloodthirsty out of hunger, but their bodies would be less strong if they didn't eat for a while and their sharpness in battle would be very low, becouse of the lack of food and the healthy things inside the food.
And a troop of unhealthy, weakend orcs would stand less chance against a powerfull host of Gondor or Rohan.

I also have to say that a huge army is powerful, but in battle it doesn't only come down to the one with the most soldiers. The tactics of the commanders are also very important.
If I may use a "historical" example: In the time of the Romans, there was a great battle that involved 10 000 Roman soldiers and 100 000 warriors from the brithish tribes, yet the romans won in the end, becouse of better leadership and tactics.

[Narisunell]

true... they would have been weakened... and to that point i have no reply.

Sauron and Saruman had good tactics, yet Frodo managed to get to Mt. Doom and Aragorn and Gondor won. the mistake was made early on. They had the informatin they needed from Smeagol, yet they did not kill him. This thwarted all their plans, this one weakness. if they had killed Smeagol when they had a chance, Frodo would have marched right into Mordor at teh Black Gates and Sauron would have won. just by sparing the life of one pathetic creature ruined the plans for Sauron, but, of course, he would not go down without a fight, so he fought, and lost in the long run. Only because he did not kill Smeagol. that was overlooked, and the tactics so carefully devised failed.

[Alatar]

Good point, i think that Gollum is one of the most important characters in LOTR, for if his evil plots and tactics had not happened then the ring would not of been destoryed:thumbs:

[Gil Galad]

Well said Orc (good to c u again aswell...u were away wernt u) but i think that Sauron made a huge mistake under estimating Aragorn and the Fellowships influence. and as for Saruman living next door to the Entwoods and not knowing much wood lore.

it is always important to make sure u never overlook any potential hazards that may get in your way

[Hobbit]

But eventhough Saruman fell and the battle of the Pellenor fields were won by Aragorn and the men of Gondor and Rohan, still evil would have won in the end, at the Black Gate, if Frodo, Sam and Gollum wouldn't have destroyed the Ring.
Becouse the power of the Ring was destroyed, the enormous walls of the black gate fell and suddenly the strenght given to evil by the ring was broken and becouse of the chaos amung the enemy lines, the men of the west could win the battle.
Although many events happened that Sauron didn't anticipate, Sauron's tactics were still good enough to beat Aragorn and his men.
His only fault was to think the Ring would go to Minas Tirith and to think that Gollum was not dangerous (so I agree with Nari)

[Narisunell]

thanks for furthering my point! :grin:

yes, Sauron had what he needed to win. it was simply the matter of life and death, and life prevailed, so he lost. because the ring was destroyed, he lost.

[Gil Galad]

well im really just disaggreeing fo rthe point of discussion but it was a prety big mistake to think that the power of the ring could be resisted and that its enemies wud try to destroy it

[Narisunell]

so, your saying that you think it was a mistake for Sauron to think it COULD be resisted and his enemies WOULD try to destroy it? :huh: that utterly confused me. but i'll just see if i understand this correctly.

it was only right to think that his enemies would try to destroy it, because the good guys will always have that little 'Oh, i think we should be the heroes' thought, so therefore they don't give in, even though they sometimes make stupid mistakes. it was wrong to assume that the ring couldn't be resisted, because it was resisted, and sauron lost.

[Gil Galad]

thank you for translating my hastily written passage Nari, u got it perfectly

[Narisunell]

oh, ok.

i don't think Aragorn had the best tactics because he didn't exactly have any tactics until the very end, whereas Sauron had been planing and plotting for a long, long time.

[Pil]

I voted for frodo, becasue although the tactics employed by the great leaders like aragorn and that of the dark armies were often good too...for a naive hobbit frodo did ok. he successfully analysed the ways of the forces of mordor in order to break through them and make his way quietly and without battle to his end goal. by voting for frodo i am really voting for frodo and sam because i think it was a combined effort really. although i think that almost full credit can go to frodo for realising the usefullness of gollum and being able to trust in him enough to let him help them into mordor. :frodo: :thumbs:

[Amithrellas]

I voted for Aragorn – since he survived for so long, fighting a foe like Sauron, his tactics must not be too shabby...

[Eomund]

I voted for Faramir for he was the only one /not in the movie) who didn't send any men to die!

[Gryffonheart]

I liked Aragorn's tactics the best, though the Dark forces were pretty goo.d Aragorn just knows everything, he is so great!
Hehe I liked Frodo's tactics: get really wide-eyed, stand there frozen for a moment, then run away or fall over backwards.

[Eomund]

That is tactics...

[Merrisil]

In the books I think the Theoden used the best tactics, afterall he successfully defended Helm's Deep and turned the tide at the Battle of Pelinor Fields with a force much smaller than his enemies on both occasions.