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Maedhros
July 5th,2002, 07:12 PM
Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it
Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.
Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?
It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna; but he returned to Nevrast, and remained there in peace, though he pondered ever in his thought how he should accomplish his design.
What happened to him?

Finrod Felagund
July 5th,2002, 09:01 PM
It keeps with the theme that the Noldor were to proud for there own good. It was their fatal flaw. Examples to numerous to list.
I guess Tolkien had it in for people with egos. They always died tragically and took lotsa folks with 'em. First hand knowledge of a war will do that I guess.
Why? he had a tragic weak moment and gave into pride...

Algamesh
July 7th,2002, 02:01 PM
Yeah ... this is all about tragic pride. Turgon just finally felt that he was his own master and that he needed no outside assistance ...

"Gondor needs no King" - Boromir

Another reason for the problems between the Elves and the Vala was the long sundering. The Vala had shut the doors of Valinor from the Elves and after many long years, trust probably faded. Do you completely trust a childhood friend who comes back to you unannounced and unplanned for many years later?

Tolkien's themes were elementary and his plots were basic. It's his ability to weave a heart-felt story around them that makes us love him so much. Sometimes I find myself looking for hidden meaning in his works and more oft than naught - it was time wasted. Stick with the basic themes when reading Tolkien and you can't go wrong!

Oh, Maedhros ... nice post my friend! You ask open-ended and multi-part questions. Nice Form! Can't wait to see future installments from you here in the Library!

Maedhros
August 28th,2002, 03:19 AM
You know, I always thought that Turgon did mess up Big Time by not following the advice of Ulmo, but when I read The Fall of Gondolin in Bolt, I could understand a little of why he did that.
The Fall of Gondolin:
Then said Turgon: "Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river that is called Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime."
I still think that he should have do as Ulmo bid him, but I don't condemn him as I did before.

Oh, Maedhros ... nice post my friend! You ask open-ended and multi-part questions. Nice Form! Can't wait to see future installments from you here in the Library!
Thanks, but I have to warn you that I'm only beginning.;)