What modern metal most closely matches the properties of mithril?

[Mandos]

Same as subject.

[Pil]

Gosh...that's a toughy! :huh:

[Fatty]

Welcome Mandos,

Well I guess steel or something. Though obviously its much heavier. Titanium is very brittle as I understand it and so not a good comparison. I read an article recently in New Scientist about them comining genese from spiders and goats to produce a protein similar to spiders silk. this is pehaps the closest material (not a metal though ) we will have . If they get is right it will be flexible, stronger than stell and lighter too..........even a simialr colour to mithril

[Mandos]

I'm not trying to sound rude but could you be speaking of tungsten? Because titanium can bend in half before breaking. Although I do agree that titanium has some deficiencies that would put it out of the running for mithril.

[Fatty]

Well maybe brittle is not the right word, however Titianium is not as formable as steel it cannot be bent in half as far as I am aware it needs a more genourous bend curve than most metals. It requires hot forming etc to shape into extreme forms and it also springs back into original form quite a bit. From what I have read its only half as elastic as steel.

So quite a rigid material to work with, if not brittle.

[Pil]

Sooooooooo WAY outta my league! :huh:

[Finrod Felagund]

Tungsten is too brittle, VERY hard but brittle,
Titanium too weak, yes it is stronger than steel for the same weight but the same weight takes up much more space. It is not stronger than the same VOLUME of high grade steel
IMHO mithril was a cross between platinum (no tarnishing) and VERY good steel
Heck I don't know, he made it all up
Might be a good question to ask at the Sword Forum International, this thread might stir up something over there, there are real metalluragists in that forum

[Fatty]

AH sounds like a good idea Longshot, since we are all obviously, I think, doing a bit of guessing. Why don't you post on their asking them?

[Algamesh]

Wasn't Mithril a silver alloy? Seems like I remember a reference to Mithril Silver. Of course, this only gives the polished component ... Tolkien never did reference any other component of the alloy that I'm aware of.

[Bonos-Girl]

i always thought that it contained silver....

[Finrod Felagund]

Platinum is sometimes called true-silver because it does not tarnish. It is workable and somewhat harder than silver or gold but not hard enough to make weopons and is much more valuable than gold (about 2x per ounce)... my wedding ring is made out of platinum
IMHO, Mithril would be a naturally occuring alloy of platinum that is MUCH harder than pure platinum but retains the lustre of base metal

[Catz]

since mithril was mined, it could not be an made alloy, but would have to be a naturally occurring ore or alloy.........Tolkien himself was no metallurgist....he really had no actual metal in mind for mithril, tho he did refer to it as Mithril Silver, or true silver, tho that was because of its appearance rather than its composition
If i choose to ignore the whole mining issue i think the platinum/steel mix would answer the properties of mithril well....
:catz:

[Orc]

I agree with you catz, it couldn't be an allow because it's found naturally, and worked more or less in the same form as it is dug out of the earth.

If memory serves, Tolkien claimed that mithral could be worked like silver - in other words - cold. In it's native form it could be formed without heat. I think he mentioned that it was then hardend - presumably with heat.

I'll have to do some digging and go back to the text to see what Tolkien specificially said

[Orc]

OK, so here are Tolkien's words on the subject. Taken from FotR, - A Journey in the Dark. Gandalf explains to the Fellowship the properties of Mithril.

"It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. It's beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim."


OK. So first of all I'd like to withdraw my earlier statement that it was not an alloy.

1) It could be beaten like copper

in it's raw state mithril is relatively soft and easy to work with. It could probably also be drawn into wire like copper or silver as well.

2) Polished like glass

this isn't all that unique. most metals such as silver or steel, if polished to an extreme have been used for mirrors in the past

3) Dwarves could make of it a metal

So, it appears to be an alloy of some sort after all..... To the best of my knowledge, making alloys require all the components to be liquid and mixed. This would take technology that would generaly be beyond that of the technological time frame which Tolkien sets the LotR trillogy. Dwarves obviously had the technology for some time by the Third age

4) Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel

From this perspective, there probably isn't a comperable modern metal. I understand that one of the titanium alloys could come close to this in strenght and it's ability to hold an edge, but I don't know much about it.

5) It's beauty was like to that of common silver

this define's its color

6) the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim

this is extremly unique. just about everything from wood, to organic substances (for example an apple cut in half) to metal oxidizes to some extent. Even stainless steel oxidizes (just ask any welder) though you really can't tell that much. Iron and silver dull, and coppper changes to a greenish color. Of all the description of mithril, this is the hardest to fit. Stainless steel is probably the closest, because it oxidizes so quickly and in such a manner that you can hardly notice.

[Pil]

IT WAS TRULY COOL!!!!! :hooray:

[Bonos-Girl]

that's sooo cool.... but it really doesn't help....i thn that there isn't any metal (either pure or an alloy) that will fulfill all the requiorements although tolkein may have been exaggerating it's qualities slighty....

[Finrod Felagund]

From some chap on Sword Forum Intl.
I don't know his credentials but what he says make sense

Well, it resembles magnesiums weight, silvers coulour, and is superiour to steel when it comes to strength. it doesnt resemble any real single metal, I'm afraid. Perhaps titanium, but that doesnt really have superiour strength, or at least hardness, to steel.

So reiterating Bonus-girl: I don't think that there are any known metals/alloys that have the characteristics of Mithril especially the strength to weight aspect

Orc: any specifics on that type of Ti, its hard to get any info from people who've used Ti

[Gil-Galad]

is it possible that mithril mixed itself under moria. is irt possible that only there steel and copper mixed? just a possibility...

[Bonos-Girl]

thats a really cool idea...

[Ghâsh]

Interesting idea...... :read: I've got a ton of studying to do.

[Catz]

tho the hardness could be a result of whatever treatment the dwarves used...tho what that could be ive no idea....perhaps irradiation lol ...which isnt as far fetched as it sounds...there are natural radiation sources underground...and radiation does alter the structure of materials......:huh: who knows...
:catz:

[Finrod Felagund]

oooo, that's a new twist, hmmm. It was only found in Moria...

[Bonos-Girl]

that would make loadsa sense....

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I think that, considering the rest of Moria, it not only makes sense but is realistic in the context.

[Orc]

If I remember correctly, Gandalf infers that it is alloy as he describes it.

TI as it is used commercially, I believe is actually an alloy - though I do not know what it is alloyed with. Steel is stronger than titanium based on mass. I know that titanium also does not have good take or keep a good edge, though I have heard rumor of one or two alloys that may do so.

At the end of the day, Tolkein was an author and linguist not a metalurgist. I think he simply made up mithril as something that was only found in Middle Earth and that only the Dwarves knew how to work to help 'flesh out' the race. If there was a modern equilivant to mitrhral it would undoutably be used in modern applications from swords to tank armor.

[Gil Galad]

yeh prety well worked out Orc. but what u said about them not having the ability to make alloys, this is a prety modest technologies all it takes is a good fire and a clay vessel to hold the liquid metal. i think that it could be compared closly to the materials used to make Japanesse Samauri armour, it was light and just as strong, if not stronger then the armours used in europe in the same era.


but also, looking at wot u have said i think an alloy would have to contain Gold or Platinum (for workability) and then i think titanium for the strenght and weight thing, but as for the phase table of such an alloy id have to look it up b4 i say whetehre itl work and to find out what the best mix etc would be

[Nilion Elentano]

Originally posted by Pil
Gosh...that's a toughy! :huh:
Has anyone of you ever considered a geologcal fact? Earth works as a sifter for minerals contained on it, many metals we know nowadays as pure metals, were part of bigger compounds, so in much previous stages of our geological eras we might have had metals as clean as Platinum (which gives the colour of Mithril), with titanium on it, wulframium, Silica, Vanadium, and Iron, perhaps creating a metal that would had been very much like Mithril.
Now please if you quote this bear in mind that it is part of a research I have been carrying on the deparment of Geological Sciences I'm a member of, so I would appreciate that what I have just quoted from my own researchs, stays here and for reference in this forum alone.
Thanks.
Nilion Elentano
High Metalsmith of the Noldor (Noldolie Tar Tincotyele)