Tuor the Man/Elf

[Tar-Palantir]

As we all know, Tuor was the only man ever to be counted by as an eldar, how did this happen, does anyone (rumil) know more about this subject?

[Rumil]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
does anyone (rumil) know more about this subject?

lol oh you guys stop it :blush: all i know is what is said on the subject in The Sil:

"in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor"

which is quite remarkable if you think about it when you consider the comment from the tale of Beren and Luthien :

"it was not permitted to the Valar to withold Death from him, which is the gift of Iluvatar to men"

This would suggest that if the 'songs' mentioned are true (and that is a big if) then Tuor's counting among the Noldor must come from Iluvatar himself!

[Finrod Felagund]

question 2.
Why did he get that gift and not Aragorn or Beren, I would think that Aragorn did more in service of Illuvatar than Tuor. Tuor couldn't convince Turgon to give up Gondolin, Aragorn was key to the Downfall of Sauron and ensured the freedom of Middle Earth from his tyrrany. Or was it because Tuor made it to Valinor and Beren and Aragorn never tried to make the trip?
You know Aegnor really felt robbed after Tuor showed up :p

[Lalaith]

Ah, poor Aegnor!

Don't forget that Tuor had friends in high places.. well, actually low places - Ulmo! I'd say he had a fair bit of clout amongst the Valar. Probably put in a good word for him or some such..;)

[Aragorn Isildur]

Beren never really did anything but steal a trinket from Morgoth which in the eyes of the Valar didnt cause that much a stir and Aragorn was nothing like the old Men, he was good in his time but no comparison.

Aragorn:king:

[Rumil]

We are thinking of immortality like Numenoreans (no offense Tar). Death is a gift from Iluvatar which Morgoth filled with fear... I'm not really sure that Tuor has been 'rewarded' with this ie it is not that he is 'better' than Beren, Earendil, Aragorn, Elendil etc

[Tar-Palantir]

Well, I think he saw himself as rewarded, after all, he loved the Eldar. So getting to live with them for as long as the earth exists is perhaps a reward.

B.t.w. No offense taken, I'm after all the last GOOD king, ;)

[David D]

How can you read the book and have such a low opinion of Beren. If I were to list the achievements of Beren I would be typing all day. When it comes to actual deeds that they accomplished I would say that no one comes close to Beren.

[Lalaith]

Hmmmm, this topic intrigues me so much that I had to draft this post beforehand!! Oh yes, I am that sad and obsessive! :p

Ok - first of all - I doubt that Tuor felt that he was robbed by being counted among the Eldar... Do not forget that he was fostered from birth by the Grey Elf, Annael, so he had an early Elvish affinity! His experiences with other mortals would hardly have raised his opinion of his own kind. Enslaved while still young, then forced to live as an outlaw? Not exactly nurturing a love of other mortals, I should think!

Then Ulmo appears to him and lays an enormous burden on his shoulders - basically to save the future of the Noldor on Middle-earth. The fact that Turgon did not act on
Tuor's warning is beside the point. I am aware that some Noldor yet lived at the havens, and of course Fëanorians still abounded, but nevertheless - Tuor had an enormous task to live up to. He was held in the highest regard by King Turgon - though mortal, Tuor was still worthy of the daughter of the King... When Tuor appeared before Ecthelion at the Seventh Gate of Gondolin (described in Unfinished Tales), Ecthelion perceived that the Lord of the Waters was speaking through this mortal. He was also clad in the cloak of Ulmo and he wore the mail left behind by Turgon at Ulmo's behest - further signs that Tuor was not your average man! :)

Do not forget the words of Huor to Turgon in the Nirnaeth. (I don't have a copy of Sil to hand, but I'll paraphrase!) 'From you and from me, a new star shall arise.' These words did not improve Maeglin's spirits, but they are further proof of Tuor's great destiny. He was the father of the Blessed Mariner; Gil-Estel, the hope of Men and Elves. Surely if anyone was deserving of immortality, it was he...

His fate was always entangled with that of the Eldar; why not his life?

Now, comparing him with Beren and Aragorn. Beren's actions were rooted in the love of Lúthien - one person, albeit the daughter of Maia and Elf. His acts were not carried out for the good of all Middle-earth.(Admittedly, the 'trinket' he nicked from Sauron wound up on the brow of Eärendil so it does all tie in. Of course it does; it's Tolkien! :grin: ) I would never imply that Beren was selfish (I am a romantic at heart) but still, his great deeds were to win the hand of Lúthien. And do not forget, he died. (Twice!) The first time, which was a tad premature, his spirit simply tarried at the edges of Arda for a while, at Lúthien's wish, while she fled her body to plead before the Valar. They could not prevent Beren's eventual death, but laid a choice before her - to remain in Valinor, or delay Beren's death and to live out a mortal life with him. As the tale tells, Lúthien chose a mortal life that she might live with Beren; so that her fate was tied in with his.

And finally, Aragorn. His fate was to be king of men. He was meant to rule at the dawning of the age of men - he could hardly up and not die! Arwen, being half-elven, had the choice, not Aragorn. She chose the fate of Lúthien, to be sundered from the Eldar. Whether Elladan and Elrohir chose the fate of their father or their sister, I don't know (I always veer towards the former, just for sentimental reasons!) but the crux of the matter is that Aragorn simply did not have the right to choose; he was irrevocably part of a dwindling line of mortals. Long ago, Elros had made that irreversible decision for himself and his descendents. Aragorn had a great lifespan, but nothing like the span of the earliest Numenoreans. His marriage to Arwen presumably rejuvenated the life of Men, but did not immortalise it...

And now, my friends, I am exhausted! I need a lie-down!! ;)

[Lalaith]

:blush: Oh, the embarrassment... I go to all the hassle of drafting my post and then I say that Beren took the Silmaril from Sauron instead of Morgoth... Oh. The. Shame! ;) :p

[David D]

Lalaith you seem to forget the deeds that Beren did before meeting Luthien. He fought so strongly against the orcs that they would flee from him fear. Infact the damage he caused to Morgoth was so great that the price put on his head was as geat as the High King of the Noldor. It took Sauron and an entire army to simply drive him back. He then learnt how to understand animals again a great deed. Then his lat great deed before before getting to Luthien was to entire Doriath. If I remember correctly the path that he took was so deadly that none have dared tread it since. These great deeds were before he met Luthien and people fail to remember them. Beren before he met Lutien was already one of the greatest men ever.

[Lalaith]

Fair points, well made, David D - I am not denying that Beren was a great man - how could I when he and Luthien were such important and personal characters for Tolkien himself (after all, their gravestone reads Beren and Luthien, beneath their own names)

I am simply trying to justify why Tuor was allowed to become Immortal and Beren was not ...

Also, does anyone have any theories on which kindred Dior belonged to? Is he counted as Half-elven or was he slain before he got to make his choice? I have often heard that he was counted as a mortal, because of Beren's mortality and Luthien's choice.

And what of Elured and Elurin? Mortal or immortal?

[David D]

I agree with your poins about Tuor but I think the reason he was allowed to become an elf was because of the great love he felt for them. Eru being compassionate decided to allow him to become an elf and never be parted with them.

Beren on the other hand did not love being with the elves and would not have been distraught at being parted from them like Tuor would have been.

As for Dior he was one of the halelevn. Tolkien writes this in one of his letters. As for what kindred he is I am no sure. The choice was given after Earendil reached Valinor, but it is said that the spirits of men do spend some time in the halls of Mandos. I think that it is a possiblity that Mandos may have kept him in the hall long enough to make his descisions. If he was allowed to make his descision am sure he would have been of the elf kindred. I believe this because he was the ruler of an elf realm and married an elf. Thus he would probably have liked to united with his wife and the people he ruled.

Elrond's sons apparently delayed their choice for a while. Again I don't think Tolkien decides if they depart or not, but I would like to think that Elrond would not be seperated from both his children and his brother. So I would like to believe that they left when Celeborn sailed to valinor.

[Gil Galad]

is it posible that tour was always of the Noldor. and tho he was born of Human folk, his fate (sorry to use that word again david)was with the eldar. and i dont think he was rewarded in any sense of the word his reward was just changed(if indeed he was once man)from death within this world, to death with it, oh and remember Ulmo spoke through him, he had one of the valar inside him, atleast in part, and that wud have to have some great consequences. id like to think that the sons of elrond remained of elven kin, altho i dont think that there love for Middle Earth was gone yet, if they cud id say they wud becoem elves and remain atleast for soem tiem in middle earth.oh beren , i think he was mighty ammong men, but he only ever fought for wot he loved, allong with his father, for the hillsides he lived in and loved and then for luthien

[Númenórean]

I think it would be cruel if Tuor died after he and Idril set out together. I mean the love between them is great that eventough death is a gift to men from Eru, I don't think Tuor would be happy at the place where his soul would dwell after his death, knowing that even if Idril gave up her immortal life, they still wouldn't be able to be together (since her soul would go to the halls of Mandos) and since Tuor did many things for the Valar I guess they could make one exception and make him an elf.
Which brings me to an totally of topic, but very interesting question: What's the faith of Arwen's spirit/soul after she died in Lothlorien? Did she simply passed to the Halls of Mandos or did she also recieved the gift of men after she stayed behind? Does anybody know?

[David D]

Arwen chose to be mortal so she definately received the gift of men. The Valar could not grant Tuor immortality, but could merely petition Eru to grant him it.

I don't think that the Valar considered being immortal was a reward, afterall they themselves will becomes envious of the gift of men. Since Manwe is closest with Eru it is likely that he was of similar mind. This could explain why no matter how small the mortal blood was a halfelf would always have the choice to be mortal.

[Lasgalen]

We need to take into consideration that Quenta Silmarillion is a history as written by the Elves. It could just be their perception that Tuor will be counted among the Eldar. It is possible that he is given long life, but will ultimately pass beyond this world as all Men do. The Elves that wrote Quenta Silmarillion can see the outcome, but can not know Iluvatar's mind.

As for Arwen, since the descendants of Earendil were given a choice, and she chose mortality, she should receive the gift of man and not go to Mandos.

[Gil Galad]

yeh Arwen wud merely pass out of this world as any of the race of men.

good point lasgalen, maybe he wosnt counted as one of the Eldar, and then maybe thats not wot wos ment (im not sure of the quote) they may have ment that he remained mortal but his name wos always to b put wit the elves out of honour(just a thought, and a hasty one at that)

[Kazaera]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Also, does anyone have any theories on which kindred Dior belonged to?

There was a wonderful thread on this over at the Silmfics group some months back - due to the fact that Beren had actually *died* when Dior was conceived and Lúthien was half-Maia, the general consensus was that he must be some strange ghost-like thing. However, I don't think that's quite canonical!

Seriously, now, I suspect Dior, Elured and Elurin dwelt in the Halls until the Second Age, when they were forced to make their choice (this is assuming that Elured and Elurin died...). I also believe that they'd choose being Elves, as would Elladan and Elrohir (although the latter is mostly 'cause I think it's too sad that Elrond loses both his parents, his foster-father, his brother and all three of his children! At least leave him the twins!)

To the great deeds of Tuor vs great deeds of Beren, I believe the crux of the matter is this: yes, Beren did great deeds, but would the Valar accept those as easily as Tuor's? For one, his deeds were not for the good of all Middle-Earth, but for Lúthien - and I'm not sure how the Valar look on that romancey stuff. Before that, with the Orc-hunting, that is something that would seem great to anyone living in Endor, but I doubt the Valar would say "Ooh, look, Beren has done so much damage to Morgoth's forces!" They seem to see such things more aloofly.
On the other hand, Tuor was a direct message-boy of the Valar, so to speak. His son came to Valinor to speak to the Valar themselves. So, although I'm not going to try and argue that Tuor's deeds were greater than those of Beren, I imagine that it would have seemed so to the Valar, or at least that his deeds affected them more directly than those of Beren.

[Gil Galad]

good points Kazeara,
i think that Beren deeds were more "selfish"(for want of a beter word) whereas Tour journeyed and brought word to Gondolin even tho he had no personal reason to.



oh i just red the Fall of Gondolin from the Lost Tales, it wos briiliant , its a pity it wos so shortened for the Silmariilon