Arwen at helm's deep (Spoilers!!!)

[Melkor]

Ok, why does everyone get upset about arwen being at helm's deep? I have some contacts who have seen the Two Towers and they she is at Helm's Deep, but it is not a lot of scenes for her. I thought Arwen was pretty hot myself.

[Bonos-Girl]

well.... most people think that she should not have had as big a part as she did in fotr so you can probably imagine how annoyed they are that she has managed to be in ttt as well........

[Fatty]

Hi Melkor, welcome to War of the Ring. I see your point, I would have less trouble with Arwen there than hvaing Haldir and a legion of Elves at the battle.

Afterall you could see how Arwen could replace her brothers for the movie.

[Finrod Felagund]

Hey I don't care as long as we have women swinging swords, I'm there. Everybody loves women with swords.
I still like the fact that the elves have a larger role in the movie than the book. Not the purist party line just MHO
I too was afraid the story would be *******ized to sell tickets but the inclusion of the Elves is one that I like. From a logical point, the elves might want to be more involved in the war effort against the baddies since thier help was greatly needed. They do become involved later in the Book, so having them at Helm's Deep is not toooooo much of a stretch. PJ just sped things up and maybe they don't go into the defense of Lorien later.

P.S. Morgoth, Keep your hands off my Elven tarts (see location)

[Illuvatar]

Good point Longshot:thumbs:

While I believe that PJ HAD to stick to the book in some areas, in order to make the Tolkien's writings come alive and really work, you would have to be a wee bit more inclusive. IMHO (of course)

[Catz]

well for me the problem with Arwen at Helms Deep isnt really a problem with the character but the actress....she just didnt give me the impression that she could fight....in fact if i saw her coming with a sword id be ducking for cover....even if she was on my side!!!...in fact, especially if she was on my side.....thatd mean id have to get closer:elfeek: ;) lol
other than that, while im not overly happy with having Elves at Helms deep,it could work quite well....im willing to wait and see...and there is dramatic justification....its not just an arbitrary change, which is the main thing:cool:
:catz:

[Pil]

Arwen NEEEEEEEEEEEEEDS to GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARWEN :archer:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GUYS! Stop with the arwen loving! EOWYN'S THE COOL ONE!!!!!! :cuddles:

[Bonos-Girl]

yeah...for once i agree with pil!!!

[Pil]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'FOR ONCE'? lol

Arwen at helm's deep is going TOO FAR PJ! Let the 'elf tart' (not called that by me!) stay at home washing daddy's robes! :knight:

[Nessa]

I honestly wouldn't mind if Arwen is at Helm's Deep, as long as she doesn't fight. I think that would completely take away Eowyn's glory as a woman in battle. Oh, and although I'm sure I wouldn't buy Liv fighting, I do think that (dare I say it?) people are a little hard on her as an actress. Not criticizing opinions, just stating my own. :)

[Finrod Felagund]

1. ALL women with swords are cool.

B. I think people are mad at Tyler b/c PJ has EXPANDED her role.

4. If she fights, which I expect, she will have had just as much training as most of the cast. Arwen is centuries old and is Galadriel's grandaughter, she can probably defend herself.
6. If they steal Eowyn's thunder in ROK I'll burn my new Special edition FOTR dvd that I haven't recieved yet

[Catz]

as long as youre not at the business end of it :naughty: ;)
Hey, Liv may very well surprise me:rolleyes: .....but i doubt it lol
She just doesnt make me feel she could fight......Arwen may very well be able to defend herself, but this is Arwen as portrayed by Liv, and she just doesnt have an edge.....still, thats just my opinion:cool: :grin:
:catz:

[Bonos-Girl]

i think the main reason no-one likes her is coz they think the only reason she's famous is coz of her dad...but if you had steve tyler as your dad, wouldn't you use it to your advantage (don't lie!!!) and also it isn't really her fault who's daughter she is....

[Catz]

no actually, BG thats not my reason at all.....i dont even think shes that bad an actress....its just i dont feel shes right for this particular part, which requires a depth which i dont feel she captured.....and unfortunately shes surrounded by very good actors, who really make it obvious that ms Tyler is IMO....and it is only my opinion.....is totally out of her league....
:catz:

[Bonos-Girl]

i didn't say it was your reason...i didn't even say it was anyone elses on the boards opinion but i know that some people in my class and stuff think that....not just about lotr but in everything she's ever been in.

[Ronin]

First of all, ground rules. I like my brunettes, but Liv just doesn't do it for me. She's an OK actress...Empire Records is still her best movie. I couldn't care less if she got into hollywood because of her dad, which she did, more power to her.

apart from all that, Arwen just needed to be played by someone with more depth of acting than Liv Tyler. catz is right, the edge that we see in Eowyn (even as a blonde, woohooo!) is totally nonexistant in Arwen. there is some age to her...but it almost comes across as overacting...plain and simple, liv really is over her head. tho, i have to admit...the FOTR scene between she and Viggo, it surprisingly worked.

oh, and finally...it isn't official yet that Arwen is at Helm's Deep. Two "official reports" over the past week...one confirming and one denying that she's not in there. of course, i'll not believe thats she's there until i see her with my own two eyes...so then again, i might be a little biased ;)

[Catz]

:grin: soooo nice to see a guy with good taste;) lol
and i agree about Liv and Viggos scenes....but i think that has more to do with Viggos abilities than Livs......Viggo was just so submerged into the character that its almost impossible NOT to suspend your disbelief when hes in a scene, hes just so committed and plays it so straight...so real....he gives every scene hes in a sense of reality, of grounding, which gives Livs performance a boost also. She may not be very convincing, but its hard to disbelieve her opposite him, when hes so very convincing.....
:catz:

[Pil]

Exactly...put a bad actor next to a good one and either the bad actor will look even worse or become a bit better just by being in with the good one. Liv was just lucky. :angry:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

ok, people getting pedantic about LIv not beeing able to fight, heres my theory, which I thought was conveyed through the movie:
Arwen is not an everyday fighter, though she obviously has some basic skills to defend herself, they seem to rest mostly in magick. I don't believe she was aware that the riders were out and about when she left Rivendell to look for Strider, but simply took a sword with her in the off chance that she'd need it. When she got to Stridetr and the hobbits she nominated herself for taking Frodo because she is the fastest rider and because she is a high elf, not affected by the darkness of the 9 riders. When the riders almost caught her, what did she do? shouted "Noro Lim" instead of turning around and fighting them, why? because she is no match for them and she knows it. Once she crosses the ford however, she has the goodness of her peo[ple to protect herself and Frodo, and when the Riders still continue on through the water, instead of turning and fleeing again, thus potentially killuing many elves she does the only thing she can do and calls a flood forth to stopthe riders, and judging from the look on her face afterwards she wasn't even sure if it would work.
What I heard about her stint in Helms Deep is that she only went there to take Anduril to Aragorn and to help the refugee's escape (specifically a woman named Morwen). I think she does do some fighting, but mostly blows her horn and helps the refugees. I hope you can rest a bit easier now.

[Catz]

i dont think you can call it pendantry when an actress fails to carry off her role to the degree that she has to many people.......i'll say it again.....my problem is not with the idea of Arwen fighting....its with Liv convincing me that she, as Arwen, can fight....after all, as an actress, thats her job....to convince me that this character is real....and im pretty sure that any Elf, especially the daughter of Elrond, would have known the riders were abroad...but its more than just the fighting...she simply does not give me, and i do emphasise that this is only opinion, any sense of depth, or age...others are quite happy with her....to me, she jars, particularly when surrounded by such assured performers :)
:catz:

[Pil]

GO :catz:!!!! But...great defencive lora! :thumbs: Well said! :p

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

But what I'm saying is that she can't neccessarily fight, the sword is mostly for show or just an added precaution, her main power rests in magick, or at least thats how it seemed to me. I'll admit that I am one of the people who was pleased with Liv's casting, namely because she looks exactly how I imagined Arwen, but also because I believe that she is a good actress, perfectly capable of portraying Arwen to her full extent, if anyone should be blamed for giving Arwen no real depth then it should be the script writers, they were working from scratch at Arwens dialogue and I must say that most of it was pretty aweful (Rivendell scene excluded for the most part), I don't know thats just my opinion and it's clear that I'm not going to change yours, nor will you change mine with a simple argument.

[Catz]

yes, i understand that....what im saying is that in her long lifetime, that she would have learned to fight....and that depth is what i miss from her portrayal...the impression that shes seen and done things that mortals cant imagine...theres a lot more to casting a character than just whether or not they resemble their role.......and hey, im not saying she was totally abysmal....just, to me, unconvincing
i doubt they'd have bothered giving her the sword unless they wanted her to look like she could use it....and to me she didnt...
:grin: but she convinced you....and thats cool:cool: twould be a boring old world if we all agreed;) :grin:
:catz:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

oh my such wisdom is spoken in that last sentance. But your forgetting that in the book, during her long life all she ever did was sew, or at least there's no evidence to suggest she did anything but that, so I at least think it's entirely possible that she fights with magick primarily and with steel secondarily.

[Pil]

:thumbs: :catz: It would! :p

I agree. Arwen was one AGED chick...how many millenia are we talking here? lol She sooo would know how the fight in battle, and was probably skilled in many weapons. In the book, it was Elrond who used magick to make the river wash away the ringwraiths...not arwen. By giving her that role in the film we are lead to believe that she was more skilled in magick than in normal techniques of fighting...though i doubt that this was true. In fact, though she might have been TAUGHT how to fight with a sword, bow and arrow e.t.c., and she probably ended up skilled in them, i don't think she would actually have the same sort of force if faced with a situation where she had to use her skills. :huh: :p

[Aragorn Isildur]

Think back to the middle ages on earth...Were women of high born families taught how to joust, fight and other similar things? No, they sat around making tapestries, going hawking and riding. With that in mind why would Arwen have had that training? She was surrounded by elves trained to fight, i.e Glorfindel, so why should she need to be able to fight?

[Catz]

agreed...they didnt....but by the same token, a woman of the middle ages wouldnt have been out riding on her own, especially if there were dangerous foes about.....so, having taken the choice to portray Arwen with a sword, i feel its up to the actress to make it believable, which i feel she did not....anyway, given the length of time the elves live, i dont think that having Arwen battle trained was too much of a stretch...
and actually, there were shield maids in the middle ages, and many women had some fighting training, so that they could hold the home if the men were gone.....
:catz:

[Aragorn Isildur]

Touche puddy cat ;)

[Pil]

I reckon she WOULD have had training! :knight: I mean...you're around for...like...thousands of years...you need something to fill the empty centuries! roflmao :dragon:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

I'm pretty sure that in the book Arwen had no fighting experience.
It's a very big thing re-sculpting a character as much as they did with Arwen,and in some respects I don't think it was a very wise thing to do, but I really like how Arwen is in it, and how she doesn't actually fight yet still kicks ***.
I stand by what I said earlier, though she obviously has training, she's no match for the nazgul and she knows it.

[Pil]

Not many people were...even gandalf said that eowyn shouldn't have had to come up against the number one. They were top dog part from sauron...and perhaps his leutenant... :mmmm: :p

[Melkor]

I still think Arwen is sexy, :naughty:

[Nessa]

Men. :rolleyes:

Tsk, tsk, Melkor. ;)

[Catz]

just wait until you see Eowyn...;) ;) :cool:
:catz:

[Pil]

GET YOURSELF SOME TASTE MAN...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! :elfeek: :o

[A! Elbereth]

Even though I dont take likings to girls (since I AM one) I dont find Eowyn as pretty as Arwen..... the first impression I got when I saw her picture on this site - lets just say it wasnt good. sorry people

[Catz]

thats the trouble with Arwen, IMO...shes too "pretty"...she reminds me of a poodle...all fluff and manicure....and not much help when the bad guys come a'callin'....and i think that Eowyn looked pretty damn fine....and im female too;) lol
tho its rather unfair to judge her on a few minutes of trailer footage and some stills...she looked great in the preview footage
:catz:

[legolaslover]

The only reason she has a big part is so there are more females in the movies. I don't mind that part but I hate how they make her a warrior she is just a healer

[Catz]

well, i hate to flog a dead horse, but....*gets out her whip*...i just feel that having made the decision to put Arwen into the fighting, they could at least have found an actress who didnt look like she was fresh from the mall, y'know?:rolleyes: lol lol
:catz:

[Pil]

Dead horse? Ew!...lol

Eowyn is soooo much more attractive than Arwen. I agree with u :catz:...she IS like a poodle! lol roflmao

[Aragorn Isildur]

As long as she brings my sword ;)

Aragorn:king:

[Pil]

:king: can you kill her once you've got it? :battle:

[Catz]

ahhh she'll probably forget it when she stops at the mall to pick up some darling little dress on sale...:rolleyes: lol
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

roflmao

[Pil]

Oh the arwen bashing...never...NEVER gets old! roflmao lol

[Catz]

nope......its fun to the very last drop!!lol roflmao
:catz:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

and heres me thinking it was getting amazingly old,considerring that Liv Tyler is absolutely gorgeous!!!!
Miranda Otto is quite pretty too, but she isn't sexy or gorgeous, just pretty. the first pick I saw of her was the close up in the white dress and I thought she was about 50 years old!!! not bashing miss Otto, but damn it's a bad picture!

[Catz]

yeah, well...looks are a very subjective thing, arent they?
to me, in the looks department Liv just looks too soft, her edges are too blurred....shes cashmere, but i think the role requires diamond...and hey...i never said anything derogatory about ms Tylers looks(except the poodle thing, but that was more about being cutesy, than being less than attractive), yes, she is pretty....but in a soft sort of way, tho thats just my opinion and really has nothing to do with my objections to her performance....theres more to acting a part than looking right...its how she played the part that im interested in, and i just dont feel that she had the steel needed....whereas Miranda Otto both looks the part, and is capable of the range that Eowyn requires, sexy or not.......but again....all opinion
and hey....most all of the stuff we talk about could be called old.....but we still love to talk about it, dont we?;)
:catz:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

right you are there!
I agree that Liv has soft features, thats why I think she looks like such a good Arwen.
but it's bull that you think acting is above looks, if Cleo King or Rosetta Levine or Patsy Byrne were cast as Arwen are you telling me you wouldn't have a big ***** about it?

[Catz]

in your opinion:grin:....in my opinion, a persons look is not as important as their acting ability.....im not saying that you can go totally out of the square, but you cant seriously be saying that looking like the character is sufficient to make a performance?
what i am saying is that a good actor can be an unexpected choice, totally unsuited on the surface and yet still make it work, still make you believe.....where a bad actor can be unconvincing even if theyre the spitting image of the character theyre portraying....look at modern dress or alternative productions of Shakespeare...
of course the actress playing Arwen had to be beautiful....but there are hundreds of beautiful actresses out there,and quite a few of them can act too ;)....just being pretty does not a good actress make, nor a good choice for a particular part.....
all im saying is that while Liv is cute, i dont think she had the edge, the steel......that a woman of the centuries of experience of Arwen Evenstar would have
:catz:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

I agree, looks aren't everything,but with some things they are very important. I personally would prefer a controvertial beauty who can act well as opposed to a bimbo. I don't think Liv is either, she is a gorgeous talented woman, who I personally think played Arwen to a T.
sure she didn't seem to be well skilled with holding her sword up in the air, but as I have already said, I don't believe she often did hold her sword upin the air so it doesn't bother me.
She does however, in my opinion have a timeless look in her eye, that invokes wisdom and knowledge. Her soft, breathy voice is soothing as I would expect an elves voice to be, her slightly upturned nose and diamond shaped eyes give her a very elvish appearance. And they way she just holds herself in particular, seems to indicate that she knows who she is and isn't in any way ashamed to be it.

[Catz]

well to my mind, with Elves described as tall and slender, i would imagine that they would have rather sharper features than Ms Tylers, so to my mind, she wasnt that good a physical match...and as ive said before, if the part requires that you carry a sword, the actresses job is to look convincing, not like her hores is gonna be in mortal peril;) lol
You saw depth, i saw someone who was looking bland and hoping it would pass for mysterious...and i never called her a "bimbo"......i have no problem with Liv Tyler....shes an adequate actress, not great, but she has talent.....and yes shes pretty, but i just dont think she was the right choice for the part when there are other actresses around who are not only beautiful, but who could carry off the depth and the physical stuff and look convincing...or maybe they couldnt....we'll never know....
;) :cool:
:catz:

[shinjo]

Actually, I think it will be neat seeing Arwen at Helm's Deep. It gives it a little flavor that the book never had. :thumbs: