The Use of Swords

[TrueSwordsman]

Just thought I would start a thread on the use and types of swords. As I was swinging my Official replica of Strider’s Sword by United (available at Arms of Valor (http://www.armsofvalour.com) it occurred to me that United may have got this one right. They have made the tang (part of the blade that runs through the handle) thinker, and so far the fittings are holding together nicely. I know from experience that the tang on the Witchking is very thin and would most definitely break if swung to hard.

Any way back to the use of swords….Strider’s Sword would have been used during the late 1300’s through the 1500’s. Also known as a bastard sword or hand and a half it can be used one or two handed. The reason this type of sword would have been used during this time frame is as follows: Armor became thicker with better protection therefore a need for a heavier sword that could be given more power with the use of two hands was needed. Furthermore with thicker armor the use of a shield was no longer needed as the armor provided the protection. Strider’s Sword is made to hack armor and the tip is pointed enough to thrust through the soft areas (such as under the arms and neck). As seen in the movie it easily cleaves an orc’s helm (no offence Orc) down the middle. This is not just movie special effect. A sword of this kind was designed and intended for such a blow. This sword would be at home in the late Middle Ages and it’s use in the movie lends even more realism to The Lord of the Rings.

[Orc]

Originally posted by TrueSwordsman
As seen in the movie it easily cleaves an orc’s helm (no offence Orc) down the middle.

pfbbt


:thumbs:


:Orc:

[Khamul]

The swords can actually BREAK just from being swung around quite hard? Without even hitting anything? I mean like clipping a wall not hacking at someone ;) . Thats shocking, considering the prices. I might just go with the non-UC replicas, then at least I can afford to replace them if they break just because I look at it the wrong way!

[TrueSwordsman]

Not all all the UC swords are like that. Just the Witchking and Ringwraith. The blades are very long and heavy and the tangs are very long and thin. Not the ideal combination for a sword.

[TrueSwordsman]

When I say not all UC swords will break that easily, I am only talking about the Official Lord of the Rings Swords. Narsil, Glamdring, and Sting all seem to be well constructed.

I was talking with a sword-fighting friend on the phone today and we both agree that some stainless steel swords will actually hold up to blade on blade contact. The weakest part of any sword is the tang where the blade narrows to fit into the cross guard. If a sword, whether it is spring steel or stainless steel, has a thick strong tang it will not break easily. Spring steel is recommended for fighting as it flexes and bends back to true. When stainless steel bends it stays bent!

With this in mind I will not be taking my Strider’s Sword out to test it against another blade. I would; however, as an experienced swordsman be willing to bet it would hold up well under a combat situation.

[TrueSwordsman]

In an attempt to create a lively discussion on the use of swords and other medieval weapons I am posting this thread. I hope you will take advantage of this opportunity.

[Khamul]

Errm, not sure if it was what you were getting at when you posted this thread, but as no-one else has replied yet I'll give it a go...
Hack, slash, thrust or stab? Which is most effective when dealing with someone you wanna punk out?(assuming they are a few feet in front of you, can see the sword and equally want to punk you out?)...

[TrueSwordsman]

Thank you for asking.

First thing that must be taken into account is what you and your opponent are wearing. Heavy armor will change your tactics and choice of weapon. In any case a thrust is most lethal as it penetrates deep into vital organs. The disadvantage of the thrust is that it can leave you open for counter attack.

[Khamul]

So you wouldnt go for a straight 'decap', or perhaps a cross body (eg left shoulder to right hip hack)? I think thats what I'd do, the hack...

[TrueSwordsman]

When you hack the blade has to go through bone and muscle to get to the vitals as well as any armor that might be worn. A decap is a hard thing to do even though it may seem easy. In most combat neck protection is worn as well.

[Finrod Felagund]

I would think aiming for the wrist, inside the thigh and under arms which are relativley unprotected would be a good method. Cut a major artery like the Femoral and it is a matter of staying out of range until your opponent bleeds out. You don't expend your energy trying to power through a persons defenses, you use short, quick, efficient movments, not large grandiose ones. This would work in a duel but I'm not so sure about a large battle. Give me something heavy that I'm not concerned about the blade and can bash with. A good steel hafted, two handed axe like a bardiche or a short halberd. Something that will break bones or at least cause a good bruise if I hit directly on armor

[TrueSwordsman]

The above-mentioned techniques of cutting the tendons in the lower leg and wrist where actually used in duels in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s. It is easier to cut a wrist or lower leg as they are farther from protection, and will slow and tire an opponent. In a major battle the foe needs to be dispatched quickly. Weapons such as the war hammer, axe, mace, etc. were great for denting and crushing armor. For an idea of those types of weapons you can look here: http://armsofvalour.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AOVL&Category_Code=A2

One problem with the deep penetrating war hammer is its tendency to get stuck in the armor after impact.

The best use for the sword in battle against and armored opponent is a solid blow to the side of the head (if you come straight down it will glance off the helm) to stun followed by a thrust between the plates. Under the arm or in the neck area is a good place of weakness.

[Khamul]

OK, heres one for you. How do you rate SAI KNIVES? I have seen a nice pair on a website for £30, and was thinking about getting them. I know they arent strictly swords but I didnt want to start a new thread just for this question...

[TrueSwordsman]

They are fun to play with and very interesting weapons. They also teach you to use both hands at the same time. For 30 pounds I would go for it!

[Winyaél Greenleaf]

I agree about the point 'Strider’s Sword is made to hack armor and the tip is pointed enough to thrust through the soft areas.'

In the movie, we can see how swift the blade works into the neck and arms of the orcs.

Sidenote: I've merged the 'Uses of Swords' and 'Got a question about uses of Swords? As here' threads together, since they're basically about the same thing.

[Nilion Elentano]

Sorry to say this, bu tyes Strider's sword might be well balanced but still it doesn't take it out from the place it has , it is a wall hanger, and if used for re-enactment it stands little chance against a well forged sword (such as one made by Riven Armoury, or Del Tin), not all the time a well constructed sword is a good sword, if you miss the fact of having good steel (which is not usually Sheffield steel or "Live steel" used in most replicas) will make your sword stand a chance or two, when you talk about swords you talk about something that needs good steel, in a knife it doesn't matter so much, because the size allows to resharpen and reforge easily, but you can't reforge a sword everyday Mr. true swordsman.
Regardless of your expertise with swords (of which I have some to put it somehow) and from the point of view of a Bladesmith, the replicas might still hurt someone, but that's what they are, wall hangers, nothing more.

[TrueSwordsman]

I don’t think that there is anyone more disappointed in the fact that the replicas are all wall hangers. I would never trust my life to one ore even a limb or two. The steel and forging/tempering process are the most important part of a sword. I own a few Del Tins as well as just about every other manufacturer currently on the market.

So I guess what I am saying is that I totally agree with you. I have been on the fencing strip long enough to see France-Lames foils, epees, and sabers go from good blades to bad when they got a new owner and started adding to much slag to the steel. The blades did not even break clean, but very jagged. Now they are supposedly back to a high standard, but have forever lost the trust of most fencers.

In my early days of heavy broadsword fighting I actually fought with a stainless steel blade that held up for about 6 months before it snapped at the tang and I nearly lost an eye. Needless to say I am now very picky about the swords I choose to fight with.

I actually designed AoV’s Battle Ready Sword of the Ranger for those who wished to have a battle ready sword similar to the ones in the movie.

By the way I have never fought with any of my Del Tins as they are way to expensive. If you have used one let me know how it held up. I have heard rumor from ARMA that the tangs are a bit weak.

[Nilion Elentano]

Well obviously depends very much on which model we are talking about, but I suppose the problem with Del Tin would be the assembling of the handle on most swords, I have never had any problems with any of them, but I suppose once again it very much depends on your style of fighting.
My solution to the dilemma of using Del Tin swords, or Don Fogg's swords for example, was to pick a sword from Angus Trim, and customise it myself, I chose a very standard hand and a half sword blade and corrected the lines from the gravity center to the tip (had to reforge for obvious reasons), and I adapted a handle made by myself on the standard tang, it has lasted well, and even tho I don't fight much these days here in Europe I can say I miss the days when it used to come in very handy in the jungle , hahaha I suppose you will say I'm a freak, but I actually used it there several times (you come across some strange folks in certain places).
Now about this Arms of Valor Battle Ready Sword of the Ranger, do you have the specs of your design?, because even tho I'm more into adapting swords that have no precedent in history I'm quite attracted by that ranger sword.

[RavenWingsofDarkness]

My favorite weapon is the sword even tho I do
not know much about it. I wanted to do fencing classes
*sighs* But stupid South Carolina doesn't have any fencing
places.

[Shieldmaiden]

I know what you mean, Raven...California has no fencing places either. Stinks. Hey, is there any place where you can learn...[um...don't know the right term for it] other types of swordfighting? Like the old-fashioned medieval kind? *is shamed by her lack of knowledge*

[TrueSwordsman]

There are many historical groups that practice the medieval style of sword fighting - sometimes known as heavy sword or heavy combat.

The best place to start is online. Just do some searching and you will find some resource sites. Try HACA or ARMA. You will be amazed at what you find.

[Orc]

If you are interested in learning Olympic style fencing, you can search for a club near you on the United States Fencing Association (http://www.usfencing.org/) web site.
Just click on the "Info for members" menue on the left, and then on the "where can I fence?" button. You can pick the state you live in or nearby states depending on you location. The listing of fencing clubs in your area often have links to that club's web site and at least some information on the club.

[Shieldmaiden]

Thanks guys! I'll be sure to check them out! :thumbs:

[azimaith]

Originally posted by TrueSwordsman
Just thought I would start a thread on the use and types of swords. As I was swinging my Official replica of Strider’s Sword by United (available at Arms of Valor (http://www.armsofvalour.com) it occurred to me that United may have got this one right. They have made the tang (part of the blade that runs through the handle) thinker, and so far the fittings are holding together nicely. I know from experience that the tang on the Witchking is very thin and would most definitely break if swung to hard.

Any way back to the use of swords….Strider’s Sword would have been used during the late 1300’s through the 1500’s. Also known as a bastard sword or hand and a half it can be used one or two handed. The reason this type of sword would have been used during this time frame is as follows: Armor became thicker with better protection therefore a need for a heavier sword that could be given more power with the use of two hands was needed. Furthermore with thicker armor the use of a shield was no longer needed as the armor provided the protection. Strider’s Sword is made to hack armor and the tip is pointed enough to thrust through the soft areas (such as under the arms and neck). As seen in the movie it easily cleaves an orc’s helm (no offence Orc) down the middle. This is not just movie special effect. A sword of this kind was designed and intended for such a blow. This sword would be at home in the late Middle Ages and it’s use in the movie lends even more realism to The Lord of the Rings.

Couple things I would disagree with but mostly accurate.
One, armor really couldn't be "hacked" through with a sword if it was plate, mail armor, yes, I've done that myself (cresset bastard sword 2 layer of barleycorn mail on a fresh lump of cow meat) However, plate armor is generally simply too tough to cut through. Now we see the orcs are in plate mail, not plate armor. (In my terminology plate mail is the combination of metal plates such as plastrons with mail armor) which would put the timing about right and make cutting through mail possible.

The cleaving down the center of the helm is usually very hard but its possible with orc quality armorsmithing the weld was simply weak. Otherwise I think thats pretty accurate, nice observation.

[TrueSwordsman]

Thank you. Most helms were designed to make the blade glance off, so it would have to be hit just right to go through. When I fight I always aim between the head and shoulder as there is less chance of missing.

[azimaith]

Originally posted by TrueSwordsman
Thank you. Most helms were designed to make the blade glance off, so it would have to be hit just right to go through. When I fight I always aim between the head and shoulder as there is less chance of missing.

I do love it when I catch an opponent directly where his neck and shoulder meet. For me its usually a solid blow to the leg at the knee line followed by a thrust into the center of the chest, sometimes i'll change to an inside guard to aim between the ribs but don't always. I'm starting to love this forum.

[TrueSwordsman]

Now that we are on the subject of tactics this is a combo that always works well for me at the start of one on one combat.

1. Throw a hard fast blow to the left side of your opponents head (if it hits you are done, if not finish the combo).
2. Bounce off the block using the momentum to attack the right side (rib area), which should be open if they just blocked
3. If they are quick and manage to block- once again use the momentum and place the 3rd blow to the thigh of the left leg.

This works for me nearly every time....as long as it is done hard and fast catching my opponent off guard!

:fight:

[azimaith]

Hehehe, as long as were on the subject I use this one too.

First use a high guard and bring the sword down directly on their head, about halfway down pull your cut and change it into a thrust to the lower abdomen, most of the time they are already attempting to block and get skewered, if they pass backwards they I press forward and beat their sword aside, grab their hilt. and bring a slice to the inside of the knee. After that its simply placing a blow anywhere ya want.

[Nilion Elentano]

Hehe you folks sound like you really kill people every week, or as they say (no offense ORC) ..." An orc a day keeps Mordor away...":naughty:

However real life battling always teaches you how innacurate the movements you practice can be, and only mastery of your weapon and sharpness of mind and reflexes makes up for any mistakes, handicaps and obstacles you might encounter:thumbs:

[azimaith]

Nothing like full contact sparring(especially with wooden or metal blunts) in armor to get a real feel for realistic battling. Its funny, one of the most important things in fighting with a sword is reflex and speed, the faster you move and react the better you will be in combat even with the most basic of techniques. Since you are fighting with a blade strengths importance is reduced a bit course the stronger you are the faster you can move that sword.

[TrueSwordsman]

The reflexive action when you block and strike without thinking only comes from practice and more practice, and is always the first combat tool to go when you don't practice.

[azimaith]

I hear that, I practice daily to keep my skill up and improving, its a real pain when you start slowing down and actually start thinking about the techniques your using rather than doing them.

[Nilion Elentano]

Originally posted by azimaith
I hear that, I practice daily to keep my skill up and improving, its a real pain when you start slowing down and actually start thinking about the techniques your using rather than doing them.

That's the main problem indeed...you keep practicing every day and it will always pay off...you stop and it shows almost right away...I bet if waving sauce pans like a hobbit counts for this?roflmao
So mates do you organize encounters? not re-enactment ones but practice type encounters? Aye I know we are in 3 different places in the world but you never know eh?:thumbs:

[Finrod Felagund]

How does one get into Medieval Martial Arts? I live in South Alabama, there is a fencing school but I have yet to see anything resembling MMA

[azimaith]

Originally posted by Nilion Elentano
That's the main problem indeed...you keep practicing every day and it will always pay off...you stop and it shows almost right away...I bet if waving sauce pans like a hobbit counts for this?roflmao
So mates do you organize encounters? not re-enactment ones but practice type encounters? Aye I know we are in 3 different places in the world but you never know eh?:thumbs:

Well I practice with whoevers available and of similar skill. Not easy to find here in Hawaii though.

Finrod Felagund:
Ah, here a great place, its called the ARMA, or the Association for the Renaissance Martial Arts. I would keep away from the SCA because they tend to do more roleplaying stuff rather than focusing on historical swordsmanship. After all, they are the Society for Creative Anacrhonisms. ARMA might have a brance where your at, if not I would advise you to buy the book: Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques.
Its really good and written by the ARMA director John Clements. You could also try to get a copy of the Codex of Wallerstien or go for Talhoffers works. If all else fails, you can try joining a fencing team and getting those you fence with to try western swordsmanship as well. Then you can practice together on both sport fencing and western martial arts. Let me get that ARMA link.

http://www.thearma.org/about.htm

There ya go, good luck.

[Finrod Felagund]

Thanks Azimaith. I am going to look into it. Looks much better and more serious than SCA. Seems like they are trying to go mainstream like Karate or other form of martial art

[Lady Ashley]

Ooh, I was looking for something like this: all about how to handle your sword and fight! I want to learn but alas! I can't seem to find anything useful online (it's all Japanese swords!!) and of course I doubt thjere are any medieval sword-fighting groups around Texas.

So, anyway, all I know about sword-handling is to, of you have a two-handed sword, to put your writing hand right under the guard and the other under it. Is it true you would hold the sword with the tip angled left if you are right-handed? (I'm right-handed.) I know terms for the parts of the sword (and learned a new one going thru this thread: tang!). Are there many different rules for fighting on the ground and on horseback?

As you can probably see, I need some serious help. (Example pictures are welcome! And I have a Sting replica I practice with : ) Not that I hit anything with it; I just swing and stab at invisible orcs.

[TrueSwordsman]

ARMA is located in Texas. You should look them up on line. Just search for ARMA.

[azimaith]

Well the point of your sword should be pointed at your opponents throat or head when your in a middle guard. (Sword infront of you a decent distance away from your groin but not too far) Pointing it left or right has never helped me. Also, I would guide the blade with whichever hand you feel more comfortable with.