BREAKING: Were the elves created by Toliken really a symbol of post WWII Britan?

[The Mystic]

Picture this: post World War II, the British were now passing the torch of being a world power to another nation, could Toliken have represented the Elves as the British?

Lets review the facts:

The Elves go to the Grey Havens to the West, an Island nation.

The mainland of Europe at the time was considered more or less to be the center of the poltical world for the west, and England is an Island nation to the west.

Middle-Earth = Mainland-Europe

The Elves were the world power, but are returning now to the grey havens (end of Imperialism and return to the island nation England to us) and pass power to another race (or nation -=coughs=-USA-=coughs=- )

The Elves compared to Man were more ancient, well traveled, found luxary in most places and situations, just as the British are known for :) while the US (symbolized by the race: Men) were rustic, just coming to power, and still struggling.

Tell me what you guys out there think!

~ The Mystic ~

[Nessa]

I have heard this several times before, but I don't know anything about it. ;) Wish I could contribute more, it does make a lot of sense to me, though!

[Pil]

Welll, as a brit i would say "AH!" Does this mean that americans are to come forth into the limelight and the brits will diminish? :mmmm:

But if you forget the diminishing thing then COOL WE'RE WHAT ELVES REPRESENT! :) :p

[The Mystic]

yeah ,that is a point I'd like to mention, I didnt mean anything like "the Brits are fading away," I mean to say that they are just more or less returning to England after post WWII and handing the torch to, more or less, the Americans (not that the English were side sitters or anything post WWII, they had a strong place but took a less active role due to rebuilding their country/infrastructure).

also keep in mind folks I admire the English for their heroic stand against the germans nazis and Italian facists all through WWII, they took a lickin' and kept on tickin' as we Yankees would put it. We admire that in our allies.

~ The Mystic ~

[Bonos-Girl]

that sounds really convincing and next history lesson i will have to get it devoted to lotr....also it was british not english..there is a difference!!!

[Fatty]

We it is an interesting analagy but a we know Tolkien diliked allegory so I doubt that was his intension. But certainly it mirrorw those events to an extent, though you could choose the ROman Empire or the Greek etc and it would apply equally.

BG is right though remember in WWII millions of Indians and many other troops of the Empire fought under British flag. THough as a UK Cit it has to be said that we are also aware that America did not join the war until they were attacked. But that has more to do with politicains than people I am sure.

[The Mystic]

Well, technically, the Americans were part of the war over Europe supplying material, and fighter pilots, we also had the first batch of US Army Rangers being trained and tagging along the Commandos on their raids. We got involved in the war because HIlter declared war on us after Japan attacked us, which was his "third mistake" (the first being not defeating the UK and the second being his assault against teh Soviet Union). But yes I can see the similar points concerning the Greek and Roman empires.

[Finrod Felagund]

I think we've burned ourselves a couple of times with the aformentioned torch.
I've always read that JRR disliked allegories but you can't help but think that it might have influenced his writing. It sure does fit.
Hitler: Sauron
Musoullini: Saruman
East vs. West
Ithillein: France

Roman? I don't see the similarities, it collapsed with the help of the Barbarians, (Goths, Visigoths, Huns, etc.) unless I'm mistaken (wouldn't be the first time...)

[Finrod Felagund]

Where would the Dwarves fit in?

[Mirkgirl]

About Sauron&Saruman being Hitler&Musoullini - absolutely NO!

C'mon they weren't even close to the real state and we know that Tolkien hated using what he saw/knew for a basis for his books, they affected his writtings, no doubt, but in the minor possible way.

In our minds Hitler is the worst, so we say Sauron is the worst in LotR so Sauron=Hitler, but that's a shallow and pittiful allegory, sorry

[Finrod Felagund]

Apparently, Mirk, you missed the part of my post about Tolkein disliking allegories
But shallow?
Hitler: Really evil, very few, if any, redeeming qualities.
Fought in WWI, went to jail for a while then rose to power, Germany became more aggressive and not very nice neighbors(Sauron defeated and then resurfacing later through the lack of vigilence of the West), seduced a lot of people into his way of thinking, (Sauron and the Rings of power), Got to Victory's door then lost because the Allies dug in and got mean and the Americans finally get in the War (Sauron Broke the Gate of Minas Tirith and then Aragorn comes up the Anduin w/ reinforcements)

Mussolini: Bit of a stretch but he tried to be his own power, ended up being a lackey and then got killed by his own people
Even used Nazi help in Ethiopia

I'm not saying that Tolkien was using allegory, just defending my shallow observations

[Mirkgirl]

missed - nope, ignored - maybe a bit, but I shared my own thoughts on it Tolkien hated using what he saw/knew for a basis for his books, they affected his writtings, no doubt, but in the minor possible way.

And the pure evill Sauron embodied can not be even close to Hitler, who, to be honest, didn't go there by himself, but was more a man able to gain the "thrust" of his people and who couldn't have been what he was if there weren't the backstairs games of the world powers.... But anyway I think this is not the right topic for a tolkien board

Anyway I think Hitler (maybe) is the closest one to Sauron in our world, but who said there must be our Sauron on the first place?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mirkgirl

In our minds Hitler is the worst, so we say Sauron is the worst in LotR so Sauron=Hitler

Mirky, i do agree with you. YOu all have probaly heard the term "prophecys are self fufilling" and i belive it. It is much like it in this case. The Mystic comes up with a great idea and we all try to expand it looking for things that fit into it even in the remotest way. And we strethch the idea big time.

It is possible that elves were a reflection of Britan, and men were the a reflection of the US, but i do not belive that lotr is an allegory for WWII, even in the remotest way.

[Pil]

It would be hard not to make a reference to the war (even if he didn't actually realise he was doing it). It had been part of history and would still be affecting his life. :dragon:

[The Mystic]

Perhaps it isn't Toliken's reference to the figures of WWII (such as Hilter), if you really think about it there have not relaly been too many wars where a great good (Democratic nations of US, France, UK, and the network of resistance fighters over Europe) fought a great evil (Imperialist Japan, Nazi German, and Facist Italy). Perhaps it isn't so much Toliken's reference to the war in a conscience effort, but really, a good fantasy epic including war is really a great good against a great evil, at least that is the classic sense of it, isn't it? And WWII wasn't called "The Good War" for nothing (granted, no war of any kind is good, but the reasons for fighting the war were, either slavery and the destruction of our way of life as free peoples or to resist). My first post was really an odd similarity I found and posted just to make everyone think, it isn't opinion or fact, just something to get the gears in your heads spinning.

~ The Mystic ~

[Gandalf the Grey]

* a familiar figure enters, cloaked in grey and encircled by rising pipeweed smoke in a matching shade *

Hail and Well Met, Mystic.

* bows a greeting *

Being that I envision Tolkien's Elves as based on the Elves of ancient Irish legend, it would be truly fascinating if there were also a connective symbolism to the British after World War II. Intriguing possibility you raise. You've provided me with a new way of looking at things. * appreciative smile *

Do you see this theory of yours as compatible with the theory that the Hobbits of the Shire represent the British in a pre-industrialized world?

I look forward to further discussions with you, over tea and a conversational bowl of Longbottom leaf if the opportunity arises.

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Fatty]

Hmm even Tolkien points out that had the book mirrored the real war then Aragorn or someone else would have vlaimed the ring and used it against Sauron. MUch like the race to discover and then use atomic weapons.

I think that The Shire clearly does mirror post WW1 England. Indeed hobbits have many features that someone might see through rose tinted spectacles of that era. But then that debunks British as elves etc.

Really I dont see any allegory in the books, the reasoon they fit with WW2 is that they would fit with nealry every big historical conflict. There is always an evil side, as dictated by the winners :-), people are alwasy oppressed, empires rise and wane, cultures flourish and die, there are always great hero's etc.

[Fatty]

Oh and nice to meet you Gandalf, such a polite chap. :-)

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

So you have arrived finally Gandalf. Glad your here!

Last winter I saw a documentary on Tolkien on MSNBC, not his work mind you, but the man himself. It discussed his history, from birth to death, and everything in between. I am reminded of a certain part of this documentary that perhaps would lend some information on this topic of yours Mystic.

From what I remember, Tolkien spent a great deal of time in the English countryside, and was even born in a small town, pre World War. At this time, life was simple and honest. There were no great machines of the Industrial Revolution in these small towns and the people were somewhat secluded and almost severed from the rest of the world. Sounds very familiar no?

The people that lived in these small rural towns were probably a big influence on Tolkien upon his creation of hobbits.

[Fatty]

Tolkien was born in the Organge State in S. Africa........though later he lived for a long tim ein Sarehole near Birmingham I think. This is certianly a bit of a rural idyll. Though not quite the shire. So I think the part about The Shire being maybe his ideal place to live is correct. Though in a way the main reason for doing this is too put what he most holds dear at stake. Just like the hobbits....if you see what I trying to say. Not very well I might add, but hey its been a long night. :-)

[Pil]

I'm reading his biography... his mother moved them to sarehole where they lived in a gorgeous little cottage. Him and his brother would go walking and playing in the surrounding countryside. There are so MANY things that had obviously influenced him. He did admit that Middle earth was based on europe in war times. Mordor situated somewhere in the Balkans. :p

Oooo, BUT! Tolkien threw a MASSIVE wobbly when some people in germany, i think, wrote on the book that it was an allegory. :(

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Tolkien was born in the Organge State in S. Africa........though later he lived for a long tim ein Sarehole near Birmingham I think. This is certianly a bit of a rural idyll. Though not quite the shire

I knew my memory would not serve me very well, thank you for correcting me Fatty. :thumbs:

Do you know how Sarehole looked say 70 or 80 years ago though? At that time there might have been much more similarities to the Shire than there is now.

I do indeed see what your saying Fatty about...

Though in a way the main reason for doing this is too put what he most holds dear at stake. Just like the hobbits....if you see what I trying to say.

...and I agree whole heartedly. The Shire represents a sort of inocent ignorance, like that of a small child I suppose. What better drama is there then a place like this being open to destruction. A very good point my friend. :)

[Kwijibo]

I've got this video from the National Geographic called LotR: Beyond the Movie. It's really great, if you can get hold of a copy, I really recommend it.

It says in there that Elves were based on a beautiful but lost culture from Northern Finland. He thought there was a strange bitter-sweetness surrounding these people (I'm really sorry, I can't remember what they were called) because they were living happy lives in this beautifully secluded land but their children were growing up and leaving for the modern world and there is similar thing going with Elves - they're loving Middle-Earth but they're leaving. He even based Quenyan and Sindarin on their language.

Although the Elves were created after the war, Middle-Earth was born in the terror of the trenches, as it was there that Tokien scribbled on the back of a notebook 'In a hole in a ground, there lived a Hobbit ... '

That sounds really romantic, doens't it? lol

He based the Hoobits and the Shire on the people he grew up with in Sarehole (sp?), those rural, farmer type people. And it the video also said that the Dwarfs could have been based aroung anglo-saxon (viking) warriors.
Am I boring you? :)