Bone to pick about Beren

[Finrod Felagund]

Does anyone else find it odd that Luthien rarely gets much credit for taking the Silmarils?
You always here how great Beren was for taking the Silmaril from Morgoth, all he did was cut it from the crown, and got greedy and almost got them caught.
Beren this and Beren that, if it hadn't been for Luthien, He would have been Sauron's wolves next dinner.

List of Luthien's accomplishments:
She singlehandedly (sp?) destroyed a castle
Moved Mandos to pity
Put ALL of ANGBAND TO SLEEP (including Beren)
Resurected Beren
Sent Sauron away with his tail between his legs
etc

Beren:
Makes a pretty good name for himself in Ered Gorgoroth
Captures heart of Luthien
Tags along w/ Luthien for a Silmaril verymad

Any other Thoughts or observations?

[Illuvatar]

Nope.....I think you just about summed it all up mate!

Go Luthien! Go Luthien! Go Luthien!:gofatty: :gofatty: :gofatty: :gofatty:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I find it odd that you try to say she rarely gets much credit... most of the people I discuss this with actually are far more into Luthien than Beren! but most of the people I discuss this with are females themselves lol

[Mirkgirl]

Well Luthien die the job. Beren was there as a trigger... she'd never think about stealing Silmarils if it wasnt for him ;)

not underestimating Beren, he was great, but he couldn't do it on his own.

And yep, Im female, but that has nothing to do with it. I think most of the people (both m and f) say that Luthien did a lot more than Beren when asked straight forward, but when they mention it, it's like the Silmaril Beren stole or when Beren stole the Silmaril. I think its just the way we call it, even tho we know Luthien did the work. It's just a way of expressing.... at least that's the way I understand it.

If there is a truly underestimated character in that story, thats Huan... poor brave hound... :gofatty:

[Finrod Felagund]

That's what I mean, he get's all the credit when she and Huan should get higher billing

[Tar-Ancalimë]

well i agree about Huan... except that I hate canines of any sort, sort of shudder even thinking about them

well i still really dont think he gets all the credit. i mean, luthien is a lot more famed than beren. plus whenever anyone talks about that story they always say beren AND luthien. whereas lots and lots of people talk about luthien alone for various reasons other than the silmaril, i dont really think beren is as popular. that prolly has a lot to do with the fact that shes one of tolkiens few female chars... i know you hate it when i say that irk, but thats a lot of the reason. luthien has some fangirls (and guys), but beren really doesnt....

anyway thats just how i see it. mo.

[Lasgalen]

For the most part I agree with you, Finrod. In all fairness to Beren, however, I must point out that he saved Thingol from Carcharoth. He did that without Luthiens aid.

-Lasgalen

[Gwaihir]

Both Beren and Luthien were necessary for the taking of the Silmaril. Luthien maybe should have gotten a little more credit, but we already know how much she did and how great she is, so why worry? I like them both. The love between them is very beautiful.

[Undomiel]

I see your point Finrod in that when i read LOTR I always got the impression that Beren played the main part in getting the Silmaril. It was definitely more Lúthien though. I think she is the strongest female character in all of the books. Save perhaps Éowyn. I also agree about poor old Huan getting no credit. I mean he killed the great wolf did he not? I dont like dogs much to be honest i more of a cat person, but i still think Huan was great!!!!

[Rumil]

Originally posted by Undomiel
I dont like dogs much to be honest i more of a cat person, but i still think Huan was great!!!!

Hmmm ... what about Mewan, the kitty of Valinor who could rub against Morgoth's legs causing him to trip and thereby loose a Silmaril?..... Perhaps not lol But yes Beren has a lot of help in 'his' quest doesn't he?

[Mirkgirl]

lol there are probably many things that a cat can do, but transporting Luthien certainly isnt one of them. Neither is slaying Carcharoth.

Anyway Tolkien got cats nature well enough I think, even tho I like them. ;)

[Undomiel]

well, you know if it was a really BIG cat....lol only kiddin' I did not mean to imply i would have prefered a cat to have aided Luthien&Beren, simply that on a more day to day basis i prefer cats lol

[Finrod Felagund]

Wasn't there some big evil cat in the Lost Tales that was a servant of Morgoth

[David D]

Though there is no doubt that Luthien did a great deal in the gaining of the Silmarillien so did Beren. It was Beren, who saved her from the sons of Feanor. It was Beren, who took an arrow for her. It was Beren, who actually had to hide beneath Morgoth's throne. It was also Beren, who actually cut the silmarillien from the crown. Beren also stood up to Carcharoth and he saved Thingol from Carchorath. Not to metion that before this he had already done unparralled feats of greatnest. The quest did need Luthien to succeed, but it certainly needed Beren as well.

[Undomiel]

Yeah it wasnt so much an argument that Luthien could have done it all by herself. It's just that people (including me) got the impression from other texts (me-LOTR) that Beren did everything pretty much by himself, which is totally untrue. Without Luthien he would certainly have failed. I agree Beren also did alot, i just figure they deserve more equal credit.

[Finrod Felagund]

Maybe, like the rest of the female characters in ME, their power is understated and subtle. Even with Galadriel and Celeborn, JRR uses "they" and not "him" or "her"

[Periantari Andruil]

I definitely agree that Luthien should have gotten more credit than she deserved... but like somebody said, their love is what makes their story great... They love each other so much that they go into danger together... it is understated about the role of women in Tolkien's works but i think when we think of how one of the SIlmarils were taken back, you talk about Beren AND Luthien and what they achieved together...

but Mirky was right that there isn't enough attention given to Huan... ahh he was such a brave and loyal dog... the story name should've been titled "Of Beren, Luthien, and Huan"! lol
:p

[Ereinion]

Originally posted by Andruil
the story name should've been titled "Of Beren, Luthien, and Huan"! lol
:p

And that wouldn't have sound like a Mexican soap-opera.....roflmao (Love them....)

[Mirkgirl]

Yeah, Chris Tolkien should rewrite and film it.... :elfeek:

[Undomiel]

I think people who say there are no strong female characters in Tolkien's work should definitely read 'Beren and Luthien' They'd be in for a surprise i think. I also agree Huan should get more attention. I mean they wouldnt have gotten very far without him.

[Gil Galad]

is the name of teh story not the "Lay of Luthien"

does this not show that she gets credit, and it wasnt as if Beren didnt deserve any credit, as Davey D has pointed out he done great things


oh yeh Finrod, in the lost tale the evil cats (i hate cats they are very dirty animals) and not Sauron who had Beren captured and all that

[Finrod Felagund]

Good point...
Yeh, I think his name was Telvido or something like that

[Gil Galad]

yeh thats the one Telvido, Huan still kicked *** tho