Fate of the Orcs

[Algamesh]

WarRingers,

A major discussion has begun on another site that I'm involved with about the fate of the orcs following the LOTR. What do you think happened to the orcs following Sauron's demise? Do you think that Aragorn eventually extended them an olive branch? Did the Race of Man eventually hunt down and destroy the Orcs? What do you think?

[Fatty]

I think the latter is more likely regardless of Aragorn's pity. Though on a lighter note I belive I have met several peole with a bit of Orc in them............though I have not dated any. :-)

Maybe they would have been given the empty lands between Gondor and Sea of Rhun..........or dieed out through bigotry, in fighting, and vred out............lots of options hmmmm need to think about this one.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Tolkien intended Orcs to be the epitomy or evil, the servants of evil. I don't think Tolkien would go along with the pity concept, at least on Aragorn's part. He would certainly have the orcs destroyed. They are evil creatures and have no redeamable qualities in them.

I would think once their master died out, they eventually would follow. As far as the orcs from Mordor, masterless, they would wander aimlessly until they would die off. The orcs under the Misty Mountains would do the same eventually. There is also the thought of trapping them in their mountains. Aragorn or the Beornings or Eomer, whoever was closest with the most resources could very well block up the entrance/exit of Moria and "starve" the orcs out.

Come to think of it, that is kinda evil in itself, trapping them in there. But hey, we're talking about orcs here.

[Catz]

mmmmm....but i also think that as a practising catholic, Tolkien didnt believe that anyone was irredeemable....i think youre right, in that Aragorn would probably have hunted them down, but i think that has more to do with eliminating a threat to his people than whether or not he felt pity for them....the mark of a ruler is that he makes his decisions based on the good of his people, and not the dictates of his heart....and i think that Tolkien had in mind that the evil races simply retreated and diminished into the malicious little spirits of European folklore. at least thats how ive always seen it...
:catz:

[Fatty]

I think I agree Catz.the diminishing into folklore thing. Also I think Tolkien did have sympathy for the Orcs, witness Gandalf, " for me I pity even his slaves", Im paraphrasing there but he says soemtihgn like that.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

When Gandalf said that though Fatty, was he referring to orcs? Not all orcs were Sauron's slaves, take the ones found under the Misty Mountains, Sauron had no control over these orcs. Perhaps he was referring to the men he had inslaved, in southern Mordor, or perhaps even, the wraiths.

There would be no pity for orcs in Tolkien's world. They are the symbol of all that is evil and corrupt, and the Professor intended them to be this.

I also like the idea of them fading away and becoming all those "gremlins" and "spirits" of old folklore. A fitting end for such horrid creatures.

[Fatty]

I think he is referring to the orcs. The majority of whom were under his sway and as much slaves as anything. I think that it is wrong to think they represent all that is evil and corrupt in the world or Middle-earth. At least to my mind it is quite the opposite.

I hate to be so contrary but I think that the assumption that Orcs are totally evil without merit and deserve death, would be the opposite if what Tolkien intended. It is imho a misreading of the books message.
He goes to great effort to show that orcs have a culture, independant thought etc. There is nothing to imply they are inherrantly evil. I don't understand what you have based that assumption on. But I am open to pointers.

I agree aout the idea of them fading to become our goblin and bogey men being a neat idea. Though I feel it is ina way a somewhat tragic end for a race created from corrupted elves/men. Though that in itslef is an interesting subject. Maybe someone will start a thread about that. :-)

[Catz]

Mmmm i agree Fatty....i dont think there is anything in the book which defines Orcs as inherently evil......yes, they were a by word for cruelty and evil amongst the free peoples, but that isnt the same as being inherently evil....if evil and brutality are the only ways to survive in a culture, then that is what you'll get...i hate to use this as an example but its the easiest one to hand.....look at German civilians during WWII....they supported the Nazi regime....made it possible for Hitler to do what he did, not because they were inherently evil, but because they wanted to survive....and you have to remember that Orcs, as a made race, were dependant for their values on others...who is to say that in different circumstances they may not have been very different?....i find it hard to believe that any creature exists, however twisted, without a spark of the divine, and i think that was Tolkiens view also.....but thats just my opinion:cool:
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

He goes to great effort to show that orcs have a culture, independant thought...

Just because a group of creatures have culture and independent thought does not necessarily mean they have a bit of good in them. Orc culture is hardly what I'd call civilized or cultural. They had no art, no music, and no forms of intellectual growth that we know of. These are all foundations of what we call "culture". Ever civilization in the history of our planet had at least one of these. Orcs were just nasty little buggerds organized by one central being who they dispised by could not leave.

...if evil and brutality are the only ways to survive in a culture, then that is what you'll get...

Exactly, if there was any redeemable aspects to the orc persona, don't you think their civilization would be slightly more understanding, even in the slightest. The whole army system itself was wrought with murder, deciet, and backstabbing. In fact, it seems it was almost a mainstay, an orc would not be shocked to learn that his superior was usurped by a lesser soldier to climb higher in the ranks. There was always fighting and bickering as well, just look at Gorbag and Shagrat and the Uruks who captured Merry and Pippin.

...i find it hard to believe that any creature exists, however twisted, without a spark of the divine, and i think that was Tolkiens view also...

So Morgoth held a bit of good in him, as well as say Sauron or the Balrog of Moria? Tolkien also had the view of corruption, ultimate corruption. Morgoth/Melkor was created and existed as a divine spirit but ultimately became the source of all that was evil. Does this mean he is redeemable? Tolkien even said that in the end of the world, Melkor will arise again and will be utterly defeated, with no pity.

As far as the Nazi analogy, that's not quite fair to use. The German citizens were just that, citizens. Orcs resemble the Nazi soldiers than the civilians. Now, there's the arguement that not all the Nazi's were cruel and evil spirited, but then again, I tend not to agree with this analogy. :) Orcs were created by Morgoth, the source of all evil, and Sauron, his minion (who at one time did try to redeem himself but faltered in the end and fell into the depths of corruption) so their origin is from pure evil.

If Tokien intended these creatures to be pitied at all, then he probably, at least I would think, mentioned something to the effect of orcs that went "AWOL" and lived their life in serenity and peace... I can't picture that. I'm still not able to see how you all can pity these corrupt things, I read and infered no hints of goodness in them throughout my readings of Tolkien's. I simply believe that there is no spark of divinity left in orcs.

Off topic, but still relevant I believe... this is a wonderful topic and have thouroughly enjoyed debating this matter with you all. What a great place WaroftheRing.net is. My thanks and respect to you all. :)

[Catz]

thanx Oro (can i call you that, or is it too close to the cookie?lol )
anyway....the reason i used the German citizenary is because of that very fact...that they were citizens, not soldiers and yet their behaviours were affected profoundly by the actions of the Nazis...many doing terrible things that they would never have concieved of before then...i just wished to illustrate how if the society supports it, any form of behaviour can become a norm, no matter how extreme.....and i really cant call the entire german army "cruel and mean spirited" when a goodly many of these guys were boys....children, who had been indoctrinated to serve....again in a culture that supported their becoming "good" members...another illustration of the deep and profound effect of society on the individual....
And ok, so the orcs were pretty bad...as to their culture reflecting any softening...in a way, thats kind of indicative that the potential is there....the very fact that the bickering and backbiting was so actively encouraged, says to me that there was potential for at least co operation between orcs...divide and conquer is an old adage...
as for other aspects of culture, ok....not much mentioned...but i think the potential was there....and im not saying youd see gorbag doing Swan Lake:elfeek: ...im sure that orc art would revolt us....that doesnt make it any less art...and the wearing of a badge shows at least the rudiments of appreciation of shape at least....
as for Melkor.....i dont think you can have been divine and then lose it totally, cos then it wasnt really divinity, just being really really good;) ....i think there was a spark of good in even Melkor...and ironically i think that thats what creates the worst cruelties, as a goad to the one inflicting harm, as they comtemplate what theyve lost and try to extinguish that spark in others, as both Melkor and the orcs do.....
whoa....:elfeek: sorry....raved on a bit...:embarras:
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

thanx Oro (can i call you that, or is it too close to the cookie?

You can indeed, I call myself that for short, since my whole pseudonym is a bit long. As an Oreo fan, the proximity is a compliment. :thumbs:

...i just wished to illustrate how if the society supports it, any form of behaviour can become a norm, no matter how extreme...

I see where you're coming from with this statement. I would usually tend to agree if we were talking about humans here, but in the case of orcs, I'll have to stick by my reasoning. I believe orcs, no matter what superior influence they would be under, would still remain vile creatures. To each their own I suppose, we all have our opinions. :)

and i really cant call the entire german army "cruel and mean spirited" when a goodly many of these guys were boys....children, who had been indoctrinated to serve

I totally agree. Perhaps I was a little unclear, which I do tend to be many times. I meant that not all, but a good number, mostly officers, of the Nazi Regime were infact cruel, but then again, that's from an American standpoint so an enemy will always seem cruel.

...the very fact that the bickering and backbiting was so actively encouraged, says to me that there was potential for at least co operation between orcs...

I apologize if I seem a little thick in understanding you but this seems a little contradictory doesn't it? Backstabbing and treachery are signs of cooperation?

...as for other aspects of culture, ok....not much mentioned...but i think the potential was there...

I just don't see it. Again, this is all dependent upon your take on the subject. Optomistic though, I admire that. :)

...and im not saying youd see gorbag doing Swan Lake...

Now that I would love to see! lol

...im sure that orc art would revolt us....that doesnt make it any less art...and the wearing of a badge shows at least the rudiments of appreciation of shape at least...

I'm an art student, so I fully agree that if there was orc art, just because it might not appeal to many, it would still be art. I believe the badge is merely in recognition of rank, to put the orcs in their place so to speak. Anything would do, a badge just the simplest and easiest to acknowledge.

As for the whole Melkor thing, I just simply cannot see any good whatsoever in that dude. Sorry but evil is evil. There is no good in the christian Satan (a direct literary analogy of sorts to Melkor), if their was I believe the christian God would try to do something instead of let him run rampant among mankind.

[Catz]

ok.....:grin: forgive me if im a little disjointed...i have the beginnings of a migraine, and im a little blah right now....
i think we have to look at this from the point of view of human society....after all, this is what they(the societies in the book) are based on, and we have no reference for any other kind.
as far as the backstabbing and such goes, i meant that the active encouragement of it was to prevent cooperation between orcs.....if such cooperation were not a possibility, i doubt it would have had to have been encouraged as much....
as for Melkor...to use your analogy of the Christian God and Satan.....is he not meant to be omniscient and omnipotent( god, that is)? if so then how could he create pure evil? .....pure goodness cannot create pure evil...they are polar opposites....free will, on the other hand can deliver one into evil, of ones own making, but i dont think it can be as utter as you posit.....created by good, i think there will always be a spark of that divinity, perhaps never again seen, but still there....but thats just my opinion:)
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

...forgive me if im a little disjointed...i have the beginnings of a migraine, and im a little blah right now....

*Offers extra strength Tylenol.*

I am very sorry to hear that, I sincerely hope you get to feeling better.


...free will, on the other hand can deliver one into evil,

Yes! That's it catz, you've hit a nail on the head of a topic I have discussed time and time again, about "Eru making evil?". It's the free will that develops the "evil" in a being. We also have to look at the definition of evil, which is another large topic in itself.

I do believe Satan is a good analogy because of the fact he was once an angel, much like the Valar can be seen as. I like your viewpoint on the whole subject of retention of good, though I can't agree. But hey, what's fun about everyone agreeing. lol

[Catz]

too true Oro my friend...too true....entdraught
and yes, feeling much better now, thanks:cool:
:catz:

[Orc]

Awww crud. You go fishing for two days, and up pops a really cool thread. There's a lot here that I want to comment on, but may take me a bit to work through it all, probably several posts rather than one.

[Catz]

wasnt that worm drowning?:naughty: lol
No worries orc, im sure we can keep it alive long enough for you to have your say matey;) :thumbs: :cool:
:catz:

[Orc]

Originally posted by Algamesh
WarRingers,

A major discussion has begun on another site that I'm involved with about the fate of the orcs following the LOTR. What do you think happened to the orcs following Sauron's demise? Do you think that Aragorn eventually extended them an olive branch? Did the Race of Man eventually hunt down and destroy the Orcs? What do you think?


I have little doubt that Aragorn would have at least chased the Orcs from his lands. Given the state of affairs within his realm at the end of the war, he would have had to spend his efforts at rebuilding rather than hunting down Orcs.

Attempting to hunt a sentient race to extinction is not an easy task. Just ask the Jews or Mormons. They have survivied being hunted and slaughtered in countless numbers despite the efforts of many people, contries and organizations. We're not talking about eliminating a species that only lives in one habitat and it's activities are well known. It would be more along the lines of trying to dig out the Japaneese soldiers that holed up even after the end of WWII. The cost to Aragorn's beligured forces would have made the effort difficult to justify - especially after the war.

Therefore it is extremly likely that at least some Orcs, especially the more intelligent Uruks and Uruk-hai would have been able to survive the hunt.

I think that like the elves, dwarves and hobbits, the Orcs faded into the realm of fairy tales and fantacy.

[Orc]

Originally posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar


He goes to great effort to show that orcs have a culture, independant thought...


Just because a group of creatures have culture and independent thought does not necessarily mean they have a bit of good in them. Orc culture is hardly what I'd call civilized or cultural. They had no art, no music, and no forms of intellectual growth that we know of. These are all foundations of what we call "culture". Ever civilization in the history of our planet had at least one of these. Orcs were just nasty little buggerds organized by one central being who they dispised by could not leave.

I disagree with you here, Oro. They did have art, we see it in Grishnakh's dagger in TTT - The White Rider.

"It was an orc-weapon" [Legolas] said, holding it gingerly, and looking with disgust at the carved handle: it had been shaped like a hideous head with suinting eyes and leering mouth.

Legolas calls it an "orc-weapon" - presumably fashioned by orcs. Blacksmithing, armoury, and weaponsmithy are most definately arts.

It is unlikely that this was crafted by someone and given or issued to Grishnakh. The Orcs in Moria are clearly armed with their own style of weapons rather than having simply picked up the dwarven weapons lieing arround in Moria. They had little if any contact with the outside world - so it is unlikely that they were issued their arms and armour from another source. They most likely used the exsisting dwarven forges to create their own weapons. I believe that the Forges of Orthanc are mentioned a couple of times - probably operated by orcs or Uruk-hai rather than men.

Even if the knife was crafted by a non-orc, Grishnakh chose it as his own - either as a spoil or by the right of leader of his forces to get first pick of weapons and armour. It was most likely chosen based upon it's carved handle, which displays some sort of appreciation for art.

[Orc]

more on orcish culture...

In Moria, the orcs seem to use hammer blows to pass the word of intrusion.

"They sounded disquietingly like signals of some sort..." - FotR, A Journey in the Dark.

This displays an ability to communicate in other than an oral form. While it is not quite as complex as writing, I think it is a possible indicator of the depth of Orcish culture.

The Orcs also have music of a sort. They had drumms in the Mines of Moria. Since they apparently understood that sound can pass better through a more dense medium than air (i.e. stone) and may have sent signals by hammering on stone, the drumbs herd in Moria could be more than just signalling devices. The drums were described as being herd in the deep, not near the location of the Fellowship. I think that it is unlikely that they were being used to communicate information. Since the drums seem to be off in the distance it is unlikely to assume that a scout of some sort would travel all the way from the Fellowship to the drummers to give them the Fellowship's location to brodcast, rather than to simply tell every Orc he found. It is more likely to assume that the Orcs believed that the drums inspired fear in thier foes, and therefore this increased their own morale. Who knows, maybe the drumming was the basis of a shamonic warrior ritual preparing Orcs to go face their enemy in a battle to the death.

As far as intellectual growth, they had to learn how to do everything that I've listed above in some fashion. I doubt if either Sauron, Melkor, or even the Balrog would have taken the time to teach them, so they probably figured it out on their own. Even if they were purposely taught these thigns, they are still growing on an intellectual level.

[Catz]

Ahhh thank you Orc.....i knew there was a reference to Orcish art somewhere in the book, but i couldnt remember where....and i do agree about the drums......
the thing is, that just because a civilisation has practices that we feel are repugnant, that does not disqualify them as civilisations...i think we often allow the fact that the Orcs are the "bad" guys, to colour our judgement on their culture....
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Indeed, I echo catz in thanking you for that reference on orc art, it had completely slipped my mind. An excellent find friend! :thumbs:

...i think we often allow the fact that the Orcs are the "bad" guys, to colour our judgement on their culture...

You're right. But in this case, I believe it's justifiable. Let's put it this way (and this will shed some light on my persona when it comes to these matters), if I saw say... Osama Bin Laden and had a gun, I'd shoot him. Harsh but I suppose I'm old school, eye for an eye kinda thing. In this case, it's a couple thousand for one. *Grrrrr*

[Orc]

Originally posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar


.....look at German civilians during WWII....

As far as the Nazi analogy, that's not quite fair to use. The German citizens were just that, citizens. Orcs resemble the Nazi soldiers than the civilians. Now, there's the arguement that not all the Nazi's were cruel and evil spirited, but then again, I tend not to agree with this analogy.

I think you are both off on this one. This is not an issue of soldier vs. cillivilan, but a matter of German vs. Nazi. German is a nationality while Nazi is a political party. Not all Germans were Nazi's nor were all Nazies, German (they were also Austrians, French etc.)

As an example of a Nazi civilian - The wife of one of the Dr's in Dakau wrote a letter to Himler. In the same sentence that she thanked Himler for sending her chocolate, she thanked Himler for allowing her husband to conduct experiments on prisners. Not only was she aware of her husbands occupation and what is going on in Dakau, but obviously approves.

As an example of a German soldier (vs. a Nazi or SS). During the battle of Arnhem, the 1st Brittish Airborne Division was surrounded, running out of ammo, food suplies and soldiers. At one point a truce was arranged to clear the wounded and dieing (mostly Brittish) from tbe battlefield. German soldiers joined Brits in risking their lives to go into a burning building to retrieve wounded Brittish soldiers.

[Orc]

Originally posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar


Exactly, if there was any redeemable aspects to the orc persona, don't you think their civilization would be slightly more understanding, even in the slightest. The whole army system itself was wrought with murder, deciet, and backstabbing. In fact, it seems it was almost a mainstay, an orc would not be shocked to learn that his superior was usurped by a lesser soldier to climb higher in the ranks. There was always fighting and bickering as well, just look at Gorbag and Shagrat and the Uruks who captured Merry and Pippin.

In reality is this any different than us? It doesn't take much of a glance at human history to find the same behavior over, and over. Much of the Roman empire was based on it (at least at the leadership level). If a legon ever broke ranks and fled, lots would be later drawn and 10% of the remaining unit would be killed - by the 90% that also fled.... THe European monarchies are rife with murder, deciet, backstabbing, inbreeding, sheming etc.

I don't see the orcs as pure evil but much more of a mirror to humanity displaying our darker side in contrast to behavor of the 'good guys'. On the same concept, the elves mirror the best of humanity, the nobility, beauty etc. that we see is 'good'.

I think Illuvatar had a lot to do with Melkor being evil. If memory serves in the Sil. he even admonishes Melkor by telling him that the chaos that Melkor created was all a part of Illuvatar's plan. In other words, Illuvatar created evil as part of the world as a ballance to good. I beleive that good and evil are mutually exclusive - i.e. you can't really have one without the other, or at least define one without the other.

If there had been no evil in ME, there would have been no challange and no encouragement or nesessity for growth

[Catz]

well as far as the german/nazi comparison goes, i really wanted to illustrate the power of society in the way that it can make a person behave in a manner that is personally unpleasant to them...the illustration could just as easily have been members of the witch hunts in england, or those who espouse a particular religious belief and condone the removal of any arguement......i guess what im talking about is the societies consensus, and how that can shape the individual....the point being (finallylol) that a society can force its members to behave in a way that to outsiders is totally incomprehensible and/or reprehensible, in spite of their personal opinions
I do agree wholeheartedly about there being no evil without good....no shadows without light....and as for being a mirror of human society....yes of course they are, somewhat polarised as you say Orc, but very recognisable for all that....
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

In reality is this any different than us? It doesn't take much of a glance at human history to find the same behavior over, and over. Much of the Roman empire was based on it (at least at the leadership level). If a legon ever broke ranks and fled, lots would be later drawn and 10% of the remaining unit would be killed - by the 90% that also fled.... THe European monarchies are rife with murder, deciet, backstabbing, inbreeding, sheming etc.

Well I myself will have to disagree on comparing orcs, to all of the above civilizations. These people may have been wrought with evils of various forms, but I would hardly use them for an analogy to creatures such as orcs.

But then again, I see what your saying and if I understand correctly, it's the "same story, different words" if you get me. The deciet of our ancient, and modern civilizations is just a lesser, or greater depending on your outlook, level of orc civilization really. Whether you cheating your way up the corporate ladder or the Barad-dur Battalion, cheating is cheating. I hope that is an accurate assumption.

But let me understand this from everyone involved in this discussion, are yall defending orcs? If you are I just can't understand why, I'm sorry.

I don't see the orcs as pure evil but much more of a mirror to humanity displaying our darker side in contrast to behavor of the 'good guys'.

Wouldn't the dark side of humanity made flesh need to be irradicated and keep the "dark side" within ourselves, not running rampant in the world to cause havok.

[Lady Arien]

I believe what Catz was referring to is commonly known as "mob mentality".....an individual can be caught up in the frenzy of a large group of people and, because of the excitement of the adrenaline and the hysteria, participate in acts which they wouldn't normallly have conceived of on their own...soldiers the world over are trained, primarily, to kill, because that's what the mob believes, that's what it's doing, that's what is right.....ask a Vietnam vet what he was thinking when he was alone on point at midnight in jungle and you'll probably get quite a different point of view....away from the mob, the individual recovers his own thoughts and feelings....some of them completely contrary to the rantings of the bloodthirsty, fired-up squadron he arrived with. This could entirely apply to the Orcs, as well.....there existed a definite social structure, precarious as it was, and I have to, well, really want to, believe that within any society, a few lone individuals will have intelligence enough to rise above the horde and evolve beyond what anyone thought them capable of....of course, they are those that regress, as well (we don't call in Neanderthal behavior for nothing), but unless some unnamed major natural catastrophe wiped them out completely, I would like to believe that my theory holds some plausibility....but then, I believe any society with any intelligence has the ability to better itself, no matter how impossible a task that may seem.

[Orc]

Originally posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar

But let me understand this from everyone involved in this discussion, are yall defending orcs? If you are I just can't understand why, I'm sorry.


In a manner, I am defending the orcs, afterall blood is thicker than water. :thumbs:

Of all of the races of ME, the orcs are facinating because of what we know and more because what we don't know about them. With races like the trolls and barrow wights there really isn't anything to go on. But we get a glimpse of what Orcs are like - their society, thoughts etc. Between the conversations of Ugluk and Grishnakh or Gorbag and Shagrat we get the feeling that they are little more than 'cogs in the machine'. Their conversations have an intelligence to them that hints that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to their life and society. Because of this, they are as illusive as their origions.

Yet, if you look closely at the orcs in Tolkien's world, what actions do they preform that are truly EVIL in every sence of the world. We are told through the main characters that they are pure evil, yet see only a limited display of such activity. Head chucking over Gondor's walls and looting and pillaging are relatively common in our human history.

I also find it hard to believe that anything is inherantly evil, or 'pure' evil.

Or maybe I just like rooting for the 'little guy' or 'cannon fodder'. Afterall, I always thought the Strom Troopers from Star Wars were cool as well....

[Catz]

oh well put m'Lady Arien...:thumbs: :cool:
and yes Oro.....i am defending the Orcs right to exist, yes...like Orc, i find them fascinating....an entirely different people, with different mores and societal structures from the other races in ME....just cos theyre "evil" does not mean that they dont have a part to play....and i too, do not believe in "pure evil"....;) and am also inclined to root for the underdog, especially the ugly underdog....our society has a disconcerting habit of equating beauty with goodness, as if beauty was a virtue, and not just an accident of birth....
But Arien put it best for me.....
"I believe any society with any intelligence has the ability to better itself, no matter how impossible a task that may seem.":thumbs:
:catz: