Battles in the Silmarillion

[Morgothian]

I have never read the Silmarillion before but I want to, anyway what battles took place during those times and how big were they. and they were a lot bigger than the battles in the WOTR right. And most of them were with Morgoth

[Alatar]

Maybe this should be moved to 'The Simarillion' section:(

[Mirkgirl]

um this came from there ;)
There's a redirect in the Silmarillion, but it'll get more replies here.... after all its here where battles are discussed

[Finrod Felagund]

Lots of battles
Smaller, just as big, and bigger
Yes, most but not all

[Lhuntidomion]

Well there was the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. That was when Maedhros, son of Fëanor
gets a big group together. He unites his six brothers and they all get help. Fingon son of Fingolfin's there. And hiis brother Turgon opens the leaguer of Gondolin. And the people of the second and third houses of the Edain all come. The People of Haleth and Hador. Plus they had a great force of Easterlings. That's where the went wrong. One Easterling and his sons were secretly wroking for Morgoth. So they summoned Easterlings and they also were for Morgoth. So the battle was Morgoth's. And Húrin father of Túrin was captured and taken to Morgoth. That's my favorite battle though. Because Húrin kills seventy trolls with an axe before he gets captured.

[Gil Galad]

yeh and he keeps roaring "the day will come again" everytime he kills one. what kind of numbers do you think were involved in that battle

[Gil Galad]

the first battle of beleriand, when the green elves take a big beating and the elves of the falas are driven back to the havens but thingol and his army defeat the most part of the orcs and then feanors people come and orcs r sent to them but they get there asses kicked and the orcs attackin the havens go to help them and they get utterly pumeled aswell, but then feanor gets to cocky and goes by himself to outside angband and gets attacked by the Balrogs

[Eorl the Young]

I thought the battle with Feanor and his me vs. lotsa orcs was the second battle? Anyway the fourth battle of Beleriand was really cool. Evil Guy Morgoth sends out an enormous army of orcs to attack the elves and the orcs were aided by Balrogs and a dragon and together these guys made an enormous fire and burned lotsa elven realms and homesteads of men. eventhough the evil guys in it's still an amazing battle.

[Gil Galad]

oh yeh sorry i kinda brought the first two battle s together there sorry, actually all the battles where amazing, even the smaller ones like when the folk of haleth were tapped in a little v in a river and there fightin and fightin and haleths dad and bro r slain, and then after 3dayz one of the sons of feanor coem with an army to help them

[Eorl the Young]

Yes I really liked that battle, for it's one of the few battles were men had to fight on their own (at firts at least, but later the leves come save them) and afterwards Curufin (it was him right? I don't remember exactly and I'm too lazy to check it out) shows a more gentil side of him.

[Gil Galad]

yeh, it was prob his most noble deed, altho u wud have to help if u herd about it. Haleth herself was very cool, how she managed to rally everyone after there lord and his hier were slain

[Morgothian]

What was the biggest battle in the Silmarillion and was it in the 1st or 2nd age. And what was the biggest battle in all the history of middle earth does any one know.

[Alatar]

hmmmm well im not real sure i think the Last Alliance was quite big but more likely The Great Battle, War of Wrath were the power of Morgoth faced the mighty Valar. Becuase it says in the book that the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth was marshelled and it was great beyong count and it was utterly destroyed, so i think that would of been but i am not 100% sure

[Morgothian]

Wow cool that battles needs to be put onto screen, I wonder how many orcs were in that battle like 200,000. thats why the Silmarillion would make a cool movie.

[Alatar]

maybe, but it would just confuse to many people who havn't read the book, but it would still be cool for us

[Lasgalen]

The Silmarillion is full of battles. Lots of death, occasional dismemberment. If you like battles, Morgothian, you definitely need to read The Sil.

[Gil Galad]

id say there were allot more then 200,000 orcs in the war of wrath.(was that the big war when the elves were found by Orome cos id say it was the biggest)also the battel that turned in2 the Nirneath , it was huge aswell cos the orcs were seen in numbers never b4 seen

[Lasgalen]

I don't think it says how many orcs. But it says that Angband was emptied so there must have been a huge number.

[Gil Galad]

it wudnt surprise me if it hit 7figures

[Eorl the Young]

Well... if Angbad is totally emptied that makes quite a force. The Sil is full of battles and quite enjoyable if you like battles like Lasgalen said. The only weird battle is that when Lúthien conqueres the tower of Sauron by singing. That's just weird

[Gil Galad]

no thats cool, and suaron surrendered the mastery of the isle to her, thats how she brought the wall sdown , and it wasnt realy a battle, there were no more then 3 involved at any one time, it was a small, but still signficant scrap

[Tirithel]

Hoo ah Luthien! Hey the woman was half maia- she could do whatever she wanted. And to think she settled for that puny mortal Beren... :lol: Just kidding!

Yeah, the Sil was pretty violent, but definitely my favorite from the ME series. Unfinished Tales was good too but I had issues dealing with the "unfinished" part. A story would start getting really good and then POOF over. Grrrrrr...verymad

I just got upset with the non-fluidity of the writing. So yeah, anywho...

[Gil Galad]

well i thought after reading the Sil(my favourite aswell) that all the bits that werent in the UF i kinda knew already, i tuat it was very good

[Glorfindel]

The Sil was cool indeed. I can't dicide wether I like the Sil or LotR better. I guess the books are too different in the way fo writing to make a choice (at least in my opinion) What's veryone's favorite battle anyway? I think the fifth battle of Beleriand was my fave, but the fall of Gondolin was sad but also awsum. I loved Ectheloin and Glorrfindel of course lol.

[Lasgalen]

Maedhros had some excellent strategy for the fifth battle. Coming from two sides. Too bad those stupid Easterling men screwed it up.

[Alatar]

ya *shakes fist at them* stupid Easterlings:thumbs:

[Tirithel]

My fave is probably the kinslaying at Alqalonde (sp?) It's so sad- just gets me everytime. I find it interesting that Tolkien made such a big deal over elves killing eachother. It says something about the way that humans take life for granted- by that I mean life as in a life, like another person; like men don't respect it enough to realize that every life is precious. Yeah anyway I'll quit babbling now.

[Gil Galad]

but u shud also remember that there is nothing wrong with death, it the most important part of life, i actually dont rate murder as that terible of a crime(dont get me wrong, it shudnt happen, but people die anyway, the onlt thing that matters is wot u do until then)

[Tirithel]

True that- I believe that death is inevitable and that there is nothing wrong with it. I do not fear it and try to make the most of every day. But I have this thing implanted in my brain that "we all owe a life," seeing as how we were all given life. I think I got it from some movie somewhere. Anyway, what I like about Tolkien's perspective is that he imagined it as wrong for the elves to take life that they had not given; that's what I latched onto.:read:

Philosophical I know...:)

[Gil Galad]

yrh thats prety deep amn, i like it, i like it allot. but wot if there wos soemone doing something that u taut wos worse than murder, is it the rite thing to kill them?

[Númenórean]

Originally posted by Gil Galad
i actually dont rate murder as that terible of a crime(dont get me wrong, it shudnt happen, but people die anyway, the onlt thing that matters is wot u do until then)

Well, it's just the way you look at it. I think murder is the most terrible for then you take away the most valuable thing that someone has against his will: life. True, we all are doomed to die, but that doesn't mean that someone may dicide when it is time for another to die. And I think when you murder someone you take away someone else his/her chances of fullfilling their dreames.
But to get back to topic: the kinslaying(s) was a beautiful yet sad part. The most beautiful and saddest kinslaying in my opinion is when Maglor and Maedhros have to kill those Vanyar to obtain the Silmarrils. I think it's a very beautiful part when the Silmarrils burn their hands and that Maedhros casts himself in the fire and Maglor gives the Silmarril to the sea and dissapears forever. That's just sad and beautiful... and totally off topic lol

[Tirithel]

In response to Gil's question about crimes less than murder:

Under no circumstances do I believe it is right to take a life. I do, however, believe that murder is sometimes justified , although I guess that's sort of splitting hairs. Did you ever see "A Time to Kill"? Something along those lines. Although I probably shouldn't start a capital punishment debate here, I think that sometimes death is the easier way out. Allowing a criminal to live and stew over his/her crimes may be, in a way, more painful to him/her than dying, depending on what you believe spiritually.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

So, how 'bout that Maglor, eh?:p

[Tirithel]

PS- yes I like the way it turns out for the sons of Feanor too. Well, wait- I don't really like it, per se, but I think it is a very poetic end to very turmoiled lives. Do ya ever wonder if it would have been better for the brothers to just renounce their oath? HEY that's kind of a good question I'm gonna start a new thread!

Talk atcha layta!

[Alatar]

lol

[Lasgalen]

I think Maedhros could have been a brilliant leader of his people if that stupid oath hadn't kept getting in his way.

[Gil Galad]

i c wot u mean Tirithel.

i dont think they cud have renounced there oaths, but wot they cud have done, since the oath is specific to the silmarils being held against there will, is say that the Valar may have the silmarils, and Thingol b4 that. that way the oath wud not be broken and they wud be free and it wud have made them much beter for it

[Númenórean]

Well... I just reread the part and it sais that they will pursae with vengeance and hatred all those who hold, take or keep a Silmarril from their possesion, so I guess they were to keep the Silmarrils in stead of giving them away. And they called everlasting dark upon them if they ignored the oath since they swore it in name of Illuvatar. So I guess that their ending would be a lot more sad if they didn't steal away the Silmarrils.

[Gil Galad]

rite but if they got the silmarils an then imediately handed them over to the Valar(or simply made it clear that this wos there intention), the silmarils wud not be taken from there possesion so the oath wud be intact and they wud not have dammed themselves

[Númenórean]

Yes, I guess so... but those Vanyar wanted to take the Silmarrils to Valinor and present them to the Valar themselves as a token that "they" won the war. So Maedhros and Maglor had to kill them otherwise they would naver be able to fulfill the oath, even if they wanted to give the Silmarrils to the Valar. So it's the Vanyar's own fault they got slaughtered: they should have given the Silmarrils to Maedhros and Maglor in stead of taking them to Valinor theirselves.

[Gil Galad]

they didnt get slaughtered, a few gaurds got slain by secrecy, but Meadhros cud have easily gone to, wots his name teh herald of manwe , the greatest warrior ever, somethin beginin wit E, and asked cud they have the silmarils to present to Manwe, but instead they went in secretly and evilly slew the gaurds who were protecting the solmarils from any evil which may attempt to steal them, and the vanyar did not even then attempt to take the Silmarils by force from the sons of feanor, even tho they had more rite to them then meadhros and maglor had

[Númenórean]

I believe his name was Eönwë and you're right he probably had more right to them then Maedhros and Maglor. But I've found this passage (sorry but I've got no idea how to quote. I really hope you don't mind):

And they (Maedhros and Maglor) send a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him
But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father had now perished, becouse of the many and merciles deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all becouse of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the havens. The light of the Silmarrils should now go into the West, whence it came in the biginning ; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge.

So Eönwë wasn't planning to give up the Silmarrils kindly to the brothers and the only way to fulfill the oath was to steal them before they were shipped to Valinor for once the Valar would recieve them, there would be no way to fulfill the oath and the everlasting darkness would fall on the brothers.

[Gil Galad]

but they cud have, as Eonwe(thank you for the name, im very bad wit that sort of thing, and dont worry bout the quote thing, im not sure ho to do it myself) said, return to valinor and await teh judgement of the Valar, who had been very merciful to there father (even if he didnt c it that way) after he drew his sword and broke the peace of Valinor. well i think tha they cud have gone to Valinor and it wud not have broken there oath, but i c wot u mean , they did paint themselves in2 a tite corner

[Tirithel]

About the everlasting darkness- was that to descend before or after death- cuz if it was an afterward thing, then to renounce, or rather, quit submitting to the oath and just live like normal elves, life would have been much easier for them.

You can just tell they wanted to too, because near the end of the Sil it alks about the remaining brothers being tired. I have this picture in my head of them standing up out of a chair with a sigh and just looking old. You know, like worn out and exhausted. Saddest story in ME, lemme tell ya. mecry

[Gil Galad]

yeh it is terible, id say the oath wud have followed them even in life and it wud have seen them die soon afterwards anyway, so the darkness wud get them quickly anyway. if only theyd have thought about it a little beter b4 running there mouths

[Lasgalen]

If only they had sworn to Manwe instead of to Iluvatar, then Manwe could have released them from their oath.

[Gil Galad]

xactly, but they just went on estep too far

[Alatar]

*shakes head* they sure did:(

[Gil Galad]

yeh they went so far past the line that they cant even c the line anymore!!!!

[Númenórean]

That's a nice way to put it Gil. I need to remember that one ;)
"Through the forrest they couldn't see the trees"

[Gil Galad]

very poetic there Numen, have u ever dabbled in such arts?

[Númenórean]

Not really. To be honest it's a Dutch saiying, I just translated in English lol

[Gil Galad]

ah the dutch will they ever stop giving, first legal narcotics and now sayins of that calibre

[Númenórean]

We are just a stupid country: we kill our own politicians, we still haven't got a kabinet after 4 months of negotiation. People in jail live more royal then most normal people here and like you said we legalize narcotics and abortus and our soccerteam nearly lost to Moldavia ( don't get me wrong: Moldavians are great people :thumbs: but their soccerteam just isn't great lol)
But dispite all that..... the Netherlands rock!
er... time to get back to topic.

[Gil Galad]

OH your dutch, i rpob shud have made the connection. actually, ireland lost to moldova in the last european championships, so il just sit here and not mention soccer. i dint no that about the cabinet there. so wot do u crazy kids get up to in the Netherlands, that is when ur not discusing the silmarilion

[Númenórean]

Originally posted by Gil Galad
OH your dutch, i rpob shud have made the connection.

I'll just hope that's a compliment lol
We usually do what most people in lotsa other countries do, but it's funny for you ask this people are preparing for "koninginnedag" or Queen's day in English (a black day in the year lol) for then everybody does ol'fashioned games you really don't want to know about. Queens day is the most embarrasing day of the year. Makes me wanna turn into an anarchist.
So I don't play that game and I'll probably spend (or waste) my time here tomorrow.

[Gil Galad]

well im not much of a monrchist myself, so id feel u on that one. wot kinda games?

[Alatar]

lol i think were getting off topic, unless i misread the Sil and they celebrated Queen's day back then we really should keep talking about the battles that happened in the Sillmarillion.

I still find that the Great Battle/ War of Wrath was one of the best battles in the Sil. It had such a stunning array of warriors from Valinor against the huge and evil army of Morgoth i think that to be one of the best:thumbs:

[Gil Galad]

yeh it was brilliant, the armys of the Vanyar marching on Angband and then the winged dragons being released and the eagles and earendel coming allong

[Númenórean]

Yup... it was one of th best although I like the fifth battle of Beleriand better. I love the part when Morgoth released the flying dragons and then Eärendil battles the black dude (can't remember his name, sorry) in the sky.
The only thing I don't like is that lotsa people keep thinking the Vanyar are far greater warriors then the Noldor becouse they won the war: they had far greater support (including the Valar) and they had one big army in stead of many small ones (they were united while the Noldor were divided). But somehow I think the Noldorian warriors were better.

[Gil Galad]

well the Vanyar had spent more time, and were closer in that time, with the Valar then the Noldor, this would give them a great advantage over most of Morgoths forces, also they were of smaller numbers then the Noldor when they went to Valinor so it would be fair to guess that they had about the same force as teh Noldor did. and there is no mention of any of teh Valar in that battle, altho Manwe Herald was there and he is unrivalled in battle

[Númenórean]

Well...yeah... but you forgot that many Noldor died during the othe battles so at the end the Noldor population has only decrised and is quite thinned out, while the Vanyar in Valinar had all the time to become a great folk.

[Gil Galad]

but i ment when they first went up against Morgoth, they even had the sun to help them, but they didnt take there moment and strike for a swift victory(because of feanor and his dam kinslayer)

[MerlintheMad]

I have detailed three of the Sil battles as wargames, and given an overview of the Silmarillion. If you are interested, you can take a look by clicking on the Website link below, or use "1066.us" in your URL bar.

[Finrod Felagund]

When Fingolfin and Co. arrived they marched to Angband. He knew that there was no way to assault it and win so he withdrew. He knew that the only way to defeat Morgoth was to draw out his forces.
JRR even said that the Vanyar were mightier of body than the Noldor. They were stronger of body but the Noldor were stronger of mind, while the Teleri were stronger of voice.

Favorite Battle:
War of Wrath, Morgoth and his toadies get beat down
Best described battle:
Fall of Gondolin in Lost Tales II

[MerlintheMad]

I haven't read Lost Tales 2. But as a war-gamer who likes to design scenarios to play, I wouldn't be particularly keen on a siege; which is basicly what the fall of Gondolin is. I like field battles far more, with maneuver and tactics, etc. I would, however, be interested in reading a more detailed account of the fall of Gondolin. I didn't know that LT2 had such a chapter. It bears looking into.

[Finrod Felagund]

Very interesting site.
re: Fall of Gondolin, it could be considered a battle in an urban location, there is a lot of manuvering, retreating ,regrouping etc. not being a war gammer (looks fun though). there are some points in the battle where the Noldor could have turned the tide, for instance, some of the generals (All but Maeglin and another guy who was a coward) tried to convince Turgon to meet the assault in the field rather than wait until it reached the gates.
Also, fighting in streets would have been to the Noldor's advantage, ie, reducing the threat of being surrounded.

[Hobbit]

I'm gonna buy the Lost Tales 2. The battle of Gondolin was my fave battle from the Sil and I'd love to read a full discription of it.
I must say you've got a very interesting site MerlintheMad. Wargaming sounds like a cool thing to do. Field battles with tactics and all are great, but i like sieges and battles at urbanlocations better, for that way the ammount of soldiers counts less.

[MerlintheMad]

I had forgotten the part about the advice to meet the enemy in the open (or is that in the LT2 account?). That could change things a lot. I like to design games with optional versions; that might have possibilities. Street battles are a colossal bore: but if you have open terrain mixed with street fighting, that can be interesting: how much open ground within the walls did Gondolin have? Perhaps I need to add "Fall of Gondolin" to my Sil battles page!

[Finrod Felagund]

MM:
I have just read LT 2 and I know it is in there, not Sure about Sil though

If you don't have it already, a great source for geograhic information is The Atlas of ME by Karen Wynn Fonstad. It contains maps from every Age of ME, from the Years of the Lamps to the 4th Age. Has a quite detailed map of Gondolin and other cities complete with scale and elevations. It has some battle arrangments also.
I keep it near by when I pick up one of the Tolkien books. It helps to visualize locations especially with all the strange names. And its just all around cool if you like maps and such.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618126996/immaculate-books/002-2133653-2103224

[Gil Galad]

it is amazingly decribed isnt it, it almost had me in tears. there is some open ground fighting, like when the men of the anvil (or something liek that) drive the enemy with great slaughter back out onto the plain and there they fight to the last man. it would be a very difficult battle to reinact as there are so many melee's etc in it and then with meaglin fighting tour and all

[MerlintheMad]

Sounds like a VERY detailed account indeed, you two. I am intrigued with the idea of adding it to the growing list of battles that I have set up for gaming: if it is as detailed as you make it sound then that is definitely the stuff I am looking for.

As regarding the Atlas of Middle-earth: I have had a looksee at it on several occasions over the years: altho the maps and all are very well rendered, I have noticed a few details that did not square with my reading: mainly in regards to Helms Deep and the battle of the field of Celebrant. I "cleared up" those in my own maps (on my website) - tho my own maps are not nearly so well-drawn. I may still pick up the book, tho, because as you say, there is a lot of detailed stuff in it: and drawn "correctly" or not (in a few cases), it is a place to start. graphically.

[Gil Galad]

what was the problem about the maps of helms deep and Celebrant? just out of curiousity.

you definitly shud look into that battle, and let us know if u make it in2 a wargame. cos id definitly like to c the overview of it. i think il pick up the atlas aswell

[MerlintheMad]

Well, for starters, Tolkien wrote the description of Helms Deep so that it doesn't work, unless you define "north face" and "south face" as "north-facing" and "south-facing": if you don't assume this right from the getgo then the rest of his description of the layout simply doesn't hold together: that and comments like the helms dike being over a mile long, yet only 2 furlongs (c. 440 yds) out in front of the deeping wall, bounded by the high cliffs at either end, are not possible. But this is where artists drawing the maps get into troubles: the atlas map and the others I have seen over the years switch the mouth of the deep around so that the moon cannot set over the hills of the Comb side (i.e. the west side) as described in the narrative. Also, Tolkien's own sketch of the fortress shows the Hornburg as a free-standing citadel, not crammed up against the cliff face, like the maps of others show. The postern gate by which Aragonr, et al, made it around to attack the batter ram crews is also on the west and most (or all that I remember) maps do not place the postern where it belongs. This is all that comes immediately to mind regarding Helms Deep maps. As for Celebrant field, the main discrepency is having the horsemen of Eorl come in from the wrong quarter: that and having the river Anduin hard at the backs of Cirion's army, which is not at all what the narrative says: by doing that, it become impossible for the cavalry to catch the Balchoth from the north and drive them "across the Limlight". It is a matter of understanding the narrative with a military perspective, which, I have noticed, most artists drawing maps for these battles seem to lack. (Being a war-gamer and amature military historian does have its advantages:)) Anyways, I go into this in somewhat more detail on the pages devoted to those battles at my website.

[Lasgalen]

Wow. That is very detailed. You have done a lot of research, Merlin.

[Gil Galad]

very good Merl, im impressed some very good points there and i cant fault u (i was checking out helmsdeep over teh w/end to check wot u were on about and i did notice some of those points)

[Friend of Maglor]

Just popped in and noticed the thread title: mwahahahaha

:flamer: My favorite battle is a certain one at Alquonde... where we kicked butt by the way :flamer:

Sincerely hoping to make someone somewhere hopping mad- FoM

[Ereinion]

Mine is definitly the destruction of Gondolin...It was so sad mecry I also loved the one where Fingolfin died...He was very brave

[Friend of Maglor]

But really, before I do make someone hopping mad (or get ferociously rebuked for my "...fell words..." already happened once today!!) I love the Nirnaeth.

1) cuz Maedhros and the brothers rock on and actually escape
2) cuz thinking about Maedhros' reaction to Fingon's death, and feeling like the ruin was all his fault is just SO angsty!!

[MerlintheMad]

I just WISH that J. R. R. had devoted equal detail to all 5 battles of Beleriand, and not just to the "Tears Unnumbered"

[Friend of Maglor]

Ya, Maedhros rocks on there too!!! (check out my sig!!! Oh wait, I changed it)

[Gil Galad]

it would have taken up far too much space to describe all the battles in full, thats why the full account of the fall of gondolin was left out of the Silmarilion

[MerlintheMad]

Actually, The Silmarillion is an incomplete book. JRRT intended it to be the first book in his huge mythological work; but he never finished it. Chris Tolkien is the editor who brought it forth, and the main parts of the Sil are rather sketchy because his father had not gone back and filled in everything. I think he would have put more details into all the battles.

[Friend of Maglor]

Very true, but all the more reason to buy the history of ME!!! nice elaborations.

[Ereinion]

History of YOU? It must be a bestseller! :o

[Friend of Maglor]

it might id it weren't M(dot)E(dot)

Actually there IS a history of FoM available.... I just haven't written it yet

[Gil Galad]

haha, u must let us know when u write it

[Friend of Maglor]

of course!!
Some people might object though, i dont know if they would beleive some of the things i say about Maglor.......buut its all true i swear!!!