Scouring of the Shire - Your Thoughts

[Tinuviel]

......no, this is not directly in response to the news that PJ's going to exclude this part from the movie....

But it has got me thinking further. I bet in the whole history of discussing Tolkien, the topic of the Scouring has come up.

And I was just wondering how the gang here feels and interpret the Scouring and also the ending of RoTK.

When i first read it, the scouring and the Frodo's departure left me with such a profound and strangely, sweet ache, in my heart.

Frodo might have saved ME, but he was forever a fractured hobbit. and to return home, and find it invaded by the evil that he overcame must have been a devastating homecoming. Even after the reinstatement of Hobbit control, and the renaissance that followed, Frodo never recovered his spirits. The wounds he bear are indeed carried by him forever.

Perhaps I'm off, but i think this is a reflection of Tolkien's indictment of the awful effects of world war....

Any thoughts?

[Catz]

yeah, id agree with that.......i think the whole profundity of the changes that a person goes thru in a war were very much on Tolkiens mind....not as a direct parallel. or an analogy, but more as something that had become a part of him....that couldnt help but colour what he wrote, since it was an experience he himself had been thru....
and i think the worst part of it is that Frodo found that he had to use force to get back his home....theres almost a resigned sense that force is a necessary evil.....
:catz:

[Pil]

when soldiers returned from the war they came back to a country that wasn't all idylic. Rationing and the reversal of roles in jobs kinda e.t.c. messed up life for those who just wanted it to return to normal. :p

[Nessa]

I find that chapter extremely depressing, but neccesary and meaningful at the same time. The hobbits return weary from war and travel to find there home in tumult. Especially through the eyes of Frodo, who wanted a place to find peace from his pain and guilt, the scourging of the shire was very tragic. He had become a pacifist while in Mordor, and now had to witness a war. The irony is that he set out to protect the Shire, and returned to see that he had failed, again.

[Tinuviel]

yes Nessa, I agree about the depressing and meaningful aspect of the trilogy's end......sigh...it seemed so futile for Frodo.
mecry

[Illuvatar]

I agree with all that's been said so far.

This was quite a different scenario and yet the same as in The Hobbit. Both Bilbo and Frodo kept the vision of the Shire in the forefront of thier minds, and I believe this was one of the things that helped both of them get through their journeys.

Now, while for Bilbo the change wasn't no where nearly as dramiatic upon his return as Frodo's was, I believe that The Professor was trying to convey the old adedge "You can never really go home again".

In one scenario Bilbo returns to find himself long considered dead, and some of his prize possestions NEVER recoverable(The spoons). He also finds himself labled "queer" and so the Shire was never quite the same as when he left it.

For Frodo, he returned to the more extreme scenario of his beloved Shire being in ruins and under siege. Then after mustering his courage and doing what "he had to do", to apply what he had learned on his journey in order to reclaim his homeland is taking the "you can never really go home" bit to the extreme, and I think that Tolkien conveyed this in the best way possible.

But whether leaving home and returning from a battle, or just leaving home in order to "sow your oats", there's something about it, that afer a span of time, things are never really the same ever again! I can only realy speak for myself, as after being away in the military, and even while in the military, I returned to what I then considered my "home town" only to find that whether it was the place that had changed or that I had changed, whatever it was, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was "out of place". Tis a rather odd feeling I must say, and is one of the reasons that this particular chapter meant so much to me.

I'll stop with my babbling now.

/me runs out of thread, and goes to get some millk and cookies....

[Nessa]

You're not babbling at all! I was a way from home with a friend for only a few days, I mean, I was only in the next state! And when I got home, things weren't the same. My family looked different, my house seemed lonely, it was the most puzzleing feeling, but really off topic. My apoogies. Excellent points everyone.

[Tinuviel]

Illuvatar, you're certainly NOT babbling at all! your post very eloquently put in words what I could not articulate well - the sense that you can never really go home again; that you can be totally transformed by your experiences.

I have gone through this , and yes like Illuvatar, this chapter totally resonated with me.

[A! Elbereth]

Wow. Never thought about all that. Illuvatar you really know how to explain yourself well. Once I was gone from my family for 2 weeks... and I must say, i thought everything was different too. But nothing can compare to what Frodo must have felt returning home mecry

[Catz]

so, so true Illu...you can never go home again.....because nothing ever stays the same for long...and as to which changes, the place or yourself...id say both....and i think this part of the book resonates more and more for you as you get older and experience more seperations.....
*glances over at Illu*......mmmmm milk and cookies......wanna share?:grin: lol

[Illuvatar]

/me runs into the thread....leaves a saucer of milk and a plate of Lady Arien's home made Oatmeal Chocolate Chip cookies, and runs back out again........

[Catz]

Mmmmmm....oatmeal choc chip.....yummmm:grin: :cool: happy catz....thanks Illu lol
yeah....its a loss of innocence...almost a bereavement of sorts...but also an inevitable part of growth, sometimes dramatic, most times not....but always, changes affect us, making us change in our turn...and that change is a central theme in the book...that things go in cycles, that "to everything there is a time"....and tho that can mean great sadness, its also very reassuring to me......
wow...im not quite sure how i got there, heheh...*curls up to finish her milk and cookies*
:catz:

[Algamesh]

I don't know if Tolkien drew upon his war experiences to create the scourging but I am in the camp of people who feel that it was a necessary ending to the story.

My reasons are two-fold:

1. It illustrates the depth of Saruman's decline all as a result of his greed and evil ambition. Here we have a wizard who was in contention to rule the land but, due to his ill-founded decisions, is now fighting for dominion over a small farming community.

2. I think that we were able to see our hobbits develop into adulthood and become responsible leaders in their communities due to their experiences in the Wide World. It was with much satisfaction that I observed Pippin and Merry mature from local pranksters to the saviors of their small homeland.

I can't see why there's lots of public criticism over this section of the book. I guess that, in a sense, it may be anti-climatic but hey ... that's life; And it's this realization of life in Tolkien's stories that binds us tighter.

[Nessa]

The first time I read the series, I was struck by the Scouring, not in a good way. First, it was depressing. Second it seemed very anti-clamactic to me. And most of all, I wanted everything to turn out wonderfully for Frodo.

I've come to respect the Scouring as one of the most meaningful chapters in the book. I can't call it my favorate, as it is very sad to me, but I can say that I got more out of it emotionally than any other chapter.

Its not all sad. I enjoyed seeing how mature Merry and Pippin had become, and Sam rushing to Rosie was darling, and Frodo's pacifism very touching, and I must say that something not so nice inside me liked, excuse me loved that Wormtongue killed Saruman, and Wormtongues death saddened me. I never thought I could feel remorse for the character until he was killed.

Overall it was a blender of emotions, and I know this isn't movie discussion but I will really miss its absence from the film, although the non-tolkienites might not have gotten it anyway.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Hail and Well Met, Tinuviel.

* bows a greeting *

It is a pleasure to find such worthy discussion. You remind me of a similar discussion elsewhere in Middle Earth concerning "Frodo's Sacrifice." Please permit me to add a few musings on the themes of "you can't go home again" and departing from Middle Earth to sail West.

I would venture that a seer and prophet such as Frodo Baggins can relate to the Shire with the acuteness of a touch from a blade of Westernesse, experiencing heightened awareness of heart even as he finds himself cut from the life he knew. However, for one thrust into the life of a Ringbearer, “ordinary” and “extraordinary” switch places. The routine of home and hearth with pleasures so plentiful they lull you to complacency vanishes, replaced by the routine of surviving varying encounters with whatever fell creatures appear on your path while you live aware of continual risk, serving in the line of duty.

To then return home only to find that the ordinary has become extraordinary there, too ... That becomes a prod to seek that peace yearned for and envisioned, as a beckoning dream finds fulfillment as one sails on a course transcending Arda marred:

“And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a green country under a swift sunrise.”

Another way to communicate the commingled nostalgia at leaving Middle Earth with anticipation of fulfillment and peace at the end of the journey West is perhaps through song.

Clicking on the link below will allow you to listen to “The Last Ship” by Glass Hammer.

http://www.glasshammer.com/audio/Glass_Hammer_-_The_Last_Ship.mp3

Clicking on this following link will allow you to read the typed lyrics to “The Last Ship” by Glass Hammer.

http://www.glasshammer.com/lastship.html

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Tinuviel]

*bows to everyone*

Thank you one and all, for such thoughtful and insightful discussions. I am truly illumine.

Gandalf. Well met indeed! I am overwhelm by your profound post. Its another one that I will cut and paste, and store in my C drive. I'm at work now, and I would dearly love to re-read what you have so cleary and coherently expressed.

Nessa, girl, are you only in your teens? :thumbs: So eloquent and well thought-out post. There is something poetic in the closure to our heros' lives. .... Catz mentioned about cycles, and this is so expressively ilustrated in how Merry and Pippin evolved in stature, both physically and character-wise, and Sam's bounty and good-earth life.... and Frodo's eventual fate. Even the elves final departure....and King Elessar's reign...everything so intricately linked...

Algamesh, i also share your concept that the Scouring of the Shire also very much reflected Tolkien's war experience. In fact, hubby thinks its very thinly veiled....but let me cosh him on the head later...

Truly, I wish I could write and express myself as well as everyone here. All the emotions that I've felt from reading the Scouring is encapsulated by the amazing words here.

Thanks.notworthy

well, lunch hour is over, and back to real life *sigh* Though what would cheer me up would be Mrs Illu's cookies!!:grin: anymore left?

Now, I simply must re-read the Scouring tonight.....

[Catz]

*catz grins and pushes the plate to Tinuviel*
there you go....saved you some....mmmm very profound words from all....dont work too hard Tinuviel ;)
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Gandalf I very much enjoyed what you said, Almost seemed like a song at one part! :):hooray:

[Narloth]

<rant>Although Tolkien insisted that he didn't draw inspiration from the war, I think that Tolkien drew upon his war experiences, intentionally or no.
I think that it was a fitting ending. If Frodo had come back to the Shire and lived a peaceful life and acted as though nothing had happened, the story would end all too abruptly for me, and I would never learn what happened to Curunir and Wormtongue.
</rant>

[Catz]

i think that rather than drawing inspiration from his war experiences as such, he could do no more than finish the story as he did (JRR that is)....because he knew just what sort of changes such an experience as Frodos does to a person, cos it happened to him, it was a part of him, not something observed....if you get my drift....
:catz:

[TheRingBearer]

I am quite annoyed that they are planning to leave this part out of the final film but in all fairness I suppose that it would just make it drag on a bit, after the Mount Doom Climax.
This chapter was very surprising to me and I didn't expect it at all. Oh well, anyone who hasn't read the books will not know what happens to Sauruman. :)

[Goldilocks]

It is my belief that the Scouring simply must be included in the film. Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam, all depart the Shire innocent, and somewhat ignorant of the torments of the outer world. But through their journey, they are made strong. I believe the reason Elrond allowed Merry, Pippin, and Sam along was because perhaps he had a sense that evil might disrupt their lives in the Shire. Their journey prepared them for the Scouring. Had they simply returned home, all would have been lost. Once back in the Shire, when it had been taken over by Saruman, they would never have been able to fight against it.

I think it is fundamentally important to include this in the film for Merry and Pippin's sake. For their dignity, in a sense. We cannot help but laugh at their whimsicle nature, and spirited personalities. We feel joy through them. But as they both complain of feeling like 'baggage', and everything Pippin does seems to go ill for him, it is so heartening, when they return home, because now they are important warriors, fierce, capable, and strong.

When I first read the book, it utterly broke my heart. I remember complaining to my family that I had a strong melencholy ache in my heart. I felt that I had truely lost some dear friends. No, the story cannot end with the distruction of the ring. I think it would be most unfair to the true heros of this tale. Hobbits.

[Nessa]

Goldilocks, that was beautiful.

I know this ache you speak of, I feel it each time I read the ending. Nothing in the book shows the change in the Hobbits more. Like you said, Merry and Pippin return hailed as heroes and respected as knights. Sam is held as one of the most important members of the community, he becomes mayor for how many terms in a row? And Frodo has changed so completely that he is made a total outcast, the other Hobbits nearly fear him.

The battle shows each of their 'new' personalities perfectly. Merry and Pippin leading the 'army,' Sam rushing to his lady's aid, and Frodo trying desperately to prevent un-neccesary deaths.

Vitle, really.

[HobbitFriend]

i agree with both of you (Goldilocks and Nessa) and definately think the Scouring of the Shire should be included! i agree with your points - the scouring really shows the huge change in the Hobbits and to leave that part out makes it seem like they had no real purpose in the journey and like they actually were just "baggage".
I really think it should be included!

[Tinuviel]

Goldilocks and Nessa, both your points have really articulated exactly how far our little hobbits have changed, from "baggage" to pillars and heroes of their community. Totally agree.

But I have another thought. The scouring of the shire, the experience of reading it and living it through our returned hobbits, can't ever be properly represented on screen ( no offense to PJ, none at all) . By no means am i a rabid purist, but there are certain situations and observations that cannot be replace by the power and poignancy of the written word. I'm wondering if visuals and actions can replace the wonderful way which Professor Tolkien made my heart ache and eyes well up whenever I read the Scouring.

Oh well, just a random thought ;)

[Catz]

i agree Tinuviel....i dont think that the meaning behind the scouring would come across that well in film....best to leave that for the book.....let the film do what visuals do best.....
:catz:

[Nessa]

I agree Tinuviel and Catz, from a film-makers point of view the scouring is nearly impossible.... action just doesn't take place after the climax. I also don't think the film will express itself half as good as the book did, but then again, how could it?

[Goldilocks]

The Shire is a beautiful, merry place. When our story begins in the film, we see Frodo and friends, Bilbo and happy Hobbits living a joyful life in tranquility. The audience feels happy mearly watching it. We wish that we could live in such a place. Hobbiton was captured beautifully on screen. Now, the next time we see the Shire, it's the Scouring. The Shire is now ruinous, depleated, a horid wasteland. The audience will remember what was. Do you think that the audience's hearts will not bleed? I think they're hearts will break at the destruction of something so beautiful and pure. And I also believe that it can be well expressed on film. Think of the faces of Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin? Would their faces alone not bring tears to the viewer's eye?

[Catz]

oh i know itd be emotional, but it would still be a dramatic anti climax....you can get away with that in a book, but i dont think itd work in film......
:catz:

[Tinuviel]

I have absolutely no doubt that with PJ' and the actors incredible skills and dedication, the Scouring segment would be emotional and beautiful, but there is a difference between film language and pacing as opposed to the narrative style found in writing....which sometimes gets lost in the cross over to the screen. Simply because it is a different medium.

But honestly, I'm not being holier-than-thou at all. :)

Its always been mentioned that PJ is a dedicated fan of the trilogy, and has always wanted to be as true to it as possible in the film... so i do believe that he had his reasons for not including it..

[A! Elbereth]

It would be nice if he could shoot the Scouring, and make another director's cut for ROTK... that would be nice!mmmmm if only

[TheRingBearer]

I agree. THE SCOURING MUST STAY :battle: :grin:

[Dernhelm]

Slightly off topic - but I have always wondered why Tolkien did not write more (explicityly) about the nature of Frodo's illness which ultimately led to his departure from Middle Earth. I wondered about it until one day I accidentaly came across the most profound essay that I have ever read on the subject. It was written by a woman named Karyn Milos and it's entitled, "Too Deeply Hurt...Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart". This woman is a true scholar who writes in an easy to understand fashion. The only thing I could say after I read it was, "WOW". I would dearly love to discuss that essay with my fellow posters.:thumbs:

[Nessa]

(I'm fairly sure thats not off topic. :) )

I would very much like to read this essay and discuss it..... do you have any idea where we could find it? Sounds very intriguing.

[A! Elbereth]

Dernhelm! I would be very greatful if you could connect me to this essay. For I have also greatly desired to know more about the pain Frodo went through, and more about the 3 times Frodo became ill in the Shire. Since I can't get my mind off of him, I need more information to think about him with! lol

[Dernhelm]

Nessa: For some reason my original reply to you did not post so I'll just attempt to give you the addy and bid you good night.

http://home.mn.rr.com/kayrnmilos/index.html

Happy reading! Hope to hear your thoughts.

[A! Elbereth]

hmmmm for some reason the page cannot be found mecry I'll try my other computer

[Tinuviel]

...me too... I'm also havin abit of problems with accessing that page.....

Would love to read that essay!

Cheers!:)

[Dernhelm]

I'm so sorry about the difficulty accessing the page. I went to my PC at work and put in "Karyn Milos" and the addy shows up this way:


http://home.mn.rr.com/karynmilos/

It worked fine for me, but if that doesn't work, try searching under her name. You should see "Works by Karyn Milos" I've got my fingers crossed for you!

[Nessa]

That was completely brilliant, thank you Dernhelm. She underlined a lot of the things I though affected his decision, and added a few more. I never considered Saruman's words affecting Frodo in that way, making him lose hope and convincing him that he would not have health or long life.

Another thing that interests me is what she said about Frodo not being honoured in his own country, this is something that has bothered me, but I never thought it would affect Frodo all that much, not if he had his good friends (Sam in particular) who knew what he went through to 'try and save' the Shire. But I suppose acknowledgement is something everyone needs in order to heal, like she said.

Very interesting read, thank you again!

[Dernhelm]

You are so very welcome Nessa:grin: Isn't that a jewel of an essay? I never would have fully grasped the depth of Frodo's suffering without having read that. She fills in the places where Tolkien chose not to elabarate.
She was very perceptive regarding Saruman. It is easy to believe that Sauraman was merely foretelling and not extracting a calculated last act of vengence upon Frodo.

I thought her anayisis of Frodo's survival guilt vis a vis Gollum's death very insightful. It makes sense that Frodo, , would take on the responsibility for being unable to "save" Gollum from himself, and from Frodo's inablilty to destroy the ring himself.

Ms. Milos was again brillant when she described Frodo's torment in realizing that on some level, he still craved the ring. He must have felt self-loathing for that. I really had no idea when Frodo uttered the words, "It is gone for everand now all is dark and empty." the he could be referring to the alllure of the ring.

[Nessa]

Yes, what you say about Frodo feeling guilty about not being able to change Gollum is very interesting. He was always attempting to forgive him and sometimes even protect him...... I often thought he related with Gollum, he realized the burden of the Ring and the terrible struggle that Gollum was going through. I think that must be the reason that Frodo pitied him so and Sam did not.

Anyways, Frodo must have hated himself entirely for giving in to the Ring, and even more for still wanting after it was destroyed. I wonder.... in Aman would he still not think about it? Or would it be too removed from darkness that it would fade from his mind?

[Dernhelm]

Originally posted by Nessa
I wonder.... in Aman would he still not think about it? Or would it be too removed from darkness that it would fade from his mind?

Aman is the name of the place where Frodo sailed? If so, then to me, that place represents a place of ultimate healing and peace something similar to heaven. It would seem to me that Frodo would never be troubled by it, even if he remembered it. That is why I think the ending of LOTR gives most people a sweet sense of satisfaction - we believe or want to believe that our loved ones that have passed have found a peaceful state of grace.

[Nessa]

Dernhelm, that was lovely! Its what I am deciding to think, anyway.

I am pretty sure its called Aman.... The Blessed Realm? Valinor? Would someone correct me if I'm wrong, please? :grin:

[A! Elbereth]

I think Frodo would remember it, but the memories would not trouble him, like Dernhelm said, and that it would seem more like a dream.... I still can't grasp the fact Frodo would never seen Pippin or Merry again, and had to wait about... around another 50 years to see Sam again....

I was really interested in the part of the essay where she spoke of how Frodo felt guily. And felt what he did did not matter, and that he failed. He surely had low self-esteem when he had no recognition coming back to the shire, and everyone there avoided him. Frodo must have felt as if no one cared, execpt the other 3 hobbits - which was regretably true.

Although, I am greatful for this essay, so that now I can contimplate on the departing of Frodo, and the wounds he carried. So greatful....

[Dernhelm]

A! Elbereth, that is why it is taken a huge leap of faith for me in PJ's ability to do justice to Frodo in ROTK. Tolkien himself writes about Frodo's post-ring suffering in such an understated way that PJ can not be faulted really if he didn't think it was really important to depict/communicate just how damaged Frodo was mentally and physically. What a shame if that happens because Elijah as an actor, is more than up to the task of portraying Frodo's angiush in a way that the audience will appreciate Frodo even more.

[A! Elbereth]

Well, I guess all we can do, is wait..... *waits twidling her thumbs*......... This is going to be harder than I thought:o

[Pil]

It's so far away...can u imagine us in years to come...waiting for the special edition of ROTK to come out in November 2004...dear god... mecry

[Dernhelm]

roflmao Waiting for that is an evil method of torture!

[Pil]

Don't we know it....i'll have no nails left by that time! (i don't bite them yet but who knows what this torture will reduce me to! lol)

[A! Elbereth]

Oh God NO!!!!!!!! The horror! ;) lol

[Galadriel]

I think that the Scorning of the Shire should be included in the movie. I mean how are they going to end it with out this part. I mean it shows how even a small safe place like the Shire can be affected in times of evil. It shows how brave Merry and Pippin and even Sam had become over the last year though all there adventures and also how troubles and hurt Frodo had become. It also showed how much Frodo was hurt by the way the Shire had changed and how that people had become sacred and even his beloved home had changed. it is also where Sam got married and moved in with frodo. How are the going to end it? I mean they can't just have Frodo and Bilbo and everyone else just sail into the gery Havens without showing that Sam has a wife to go home to and that the Shire had changed while they had been gone. Also how will they ended up killing Saruman if they don't show this part. i don't know but I really think that it should be included in the final movie.

[Lady Ashley]

Has someone anywhere started a petition for PJ to include the Scouring? Becuase, if so, I'd like to sign it...if it were legitemate.

[Gowpon]

I think I"m tired of petition...
Still remember how I hated the petition of changing the TTT's name... :(

[Lady Ashley]

Oh, lordy...what an idotic petition THAT was! Ugh, how could people say that TTT was making fun of September 11...Tsl Tsk. :nono:

[Daughter of Finarfin]

It doesn't upset me... I think it's quite funny! Sometimes I am in awe of how ignorant people can be.