It's Beren and Lúthien fault.

[Lhuntidomion]

Okay I've been wondering if anyone else thought it was Beren and Lúthien's fault. If they hadn't gotten a Silmaril from Morgoth then the Dwarves of Belegost wouldn't have killed Thingol, the Sons of Fëanor wouldn't have brought about the Ruin of Doriath, and murdered all those innocent people. Perhaps the deaths of all those brave and valiant people wouldn't have died. Opinions?

[Rumil]

Well it wouldn't stand up in a court of law lol

[Lalaith]

Oooh, I like a challenge! lol

Ahem: If Beren and Luthien hadn't gotten the Silmaril, it wouldn't have passed to Dior, it wouldn't have passed to Elwing and then it wouldn't have passed to Earendil. He would not have gone to Valinor, there would be no Gil-Estel and the Valar would not have been stirred into action against Morgoth!

So, although devestation and heartache may have resulted, so too did the hope of Elves and Men!

Thank you, and good night! ;)

*Takes a bow and retreats*

[Alatar]

It is more of Thingols fault in the first place, he sealed his doom when giving the quest to Beren, and the love between Beren and Luthien was the strongest there had ever been before.

[Lhuntidomion]

Hmmm good points both of you. However, if Beren and Lúthien hadn't gotten the Simarils, eventually there would have been the Leauge of Maedhros anyway. Morgoth would be overthrown by Arda's own and not the Host of the West. Can you imagine if all the Elves in ME united against Morgoth?

[Lalaith]

I doubt that Morgoth could have been overthrown by Elves. Wasn't that one of the things that the Noldor were warned about before leaving Valinor. Morgoth was a Vala; his defeat was beyond the power of Elves. Fingolfin had a good shot, admittedly, and Luthien rather showed everyone a thing or two, but, in the end, the Host of the Valar were all that could defeat him.

As for whose fault it is - I maintain that Beren and Luthien are beyond blame.

[Algamesh]

One other thing ... the trials of Beren and Luthien were derived from their love for one another. In Tolkien's world, the virtuous oft times stand victorious so I believe that this theme carried the fate of the entire world. Victory through the "League of Maedhros" would suggest that greed (even that which is inherited) could conquer Evil. I can't believe in this possibility ... ;)

[Lasgalen]

If they hadn't gotten a Silmaril from Morgoth, lots of innocent people would still have been murdered because the first kin slaying took place before that. Really its Morgoth's fault because if he hadn't stolen the Silmarils in the first place, then Beren and Luthien would not have been able to take one from him.

-Lasgalen

[Alatar]

Then it would of started with the Creator of the world, Iluvatar?? it has been a while since i read the start but didn't he keep the creation of ME more or less out of sight from the others, makeing Morgoth ever hunger for power and leadership???? or something like that:rolleyes:

[Lhuntidomion]

Hmm perhaps but look at it like this. Forget the kinslaying at Alqualondë. If Morgoth had all three Silmarils then the hate of the Sons of Fëanor would be directed to him. They wouldn't have hated any other Elves. And I doubt that the Noldor and the Sindar would be willing to sit there for sooooo long while Morgoth's power increased. Despite the fact that the Leauge of Maedhros was inspired by the deeds of Beren and Lúthien. It would have eventually formed anyway!! And Thingol wouldn't hate the Sons of Fëanor so much, because Celegorm wouldn't have demanded to marry Lúthien, because she'd never haave met Beren. We just have to deal with an unborn Dior, and unborn Elwing. Eärendil would've married someone else.


P.S. Oh and really I don't think it's B&L's fault, I just like to inspire ideas and different perspectives.

[Lady Melody]

Put it this way;

who the hell created the Silmarills to begin with?

The blame game...where people blame other people for things that had happened and could not be undone, finding a scapegoat so they would not be blamed...

Thank you/

[Gil Galad]

well beren and luthein i beleive r completly innocent, u cannot blame them for teh actions of others, they merely took a gem that had no owner, save maybe the Valar, and the resulting conflicts were teh fault of others

[Finrod Felagund]

Laliath is right about the Noldor being warned, only a Vala can defeat a Vala, weakened or not. And without the Silmaril, Earendil would have never made it to Valinor and Morgoth would have eventually exterminated all who apposed him.

Besides, as I've stated before, it's Galadriel's fault...she was too uppity to give Feanor a single hair:p
(oh boy here we go again)
I love these "whose fault is it?" threads!

[Skyfiery]

Or maybe it's no one's fault but Feanor's. Because even if he created the Silmarils, it was his vision of his work and maybe he had a glimpse of the fate of the Two Trees. It was his pride and stubborness that caused all these hurts, as well as his oath, because if he didn't swear it even after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, would so many kinslaying and wars have occured?

Sky

[Gil Galad]

well i think,

it was Morgoth and Ungoliant to blame for the trees being destroyed,

feanor and his people were at fault for the kinslaying at aqualonde, doriath and teh mouths of sirion, aswell as the burning of teh ships at losgar........
well basically, everyone is to blame for what they done, and only them, they cant blame those who done the deeds that led to there own deeds.

Lhuntidomion, they were willing to wait while morgoths power increased, remember b4 the battle of the sudden flame, Fingolfin planned an assualt on Angband (when the dragons were in there infancy, even glorung)but because everyone was living so well they didnt want to bother

[Lasgalen]

Feanor never would have sworn the oath if Morgoth had not stolen the Silmarils so lets blame Morgoth.

[Gil Galad]

ah you cant blame Morgoth for the Oath, it was Feanor who swore it, he had a choice, as did his sons, but he did and it brought about his fall, albeit a glorious one.

[Lasgalen]

He never would have sworn the oath if Melkor hadn't murdered his father and stolen his silmarils.

[Gil Galad]

he wud not have had teh choice to make it (cos the silmarils wud not have been stolen), Morgoth gave him the choice, and he chose to make the oath

[Periantari Andruil]

i think sooner or later, there will be certain Elves waiting for the opportunity to take back the Silmarils... The Noldor were trying to wait for when the time was right to attack Morgoth... I do not think it is Beren and Luthien's fault for trying to take back something that belongs to the elves..i actually praise them and admire their courage in trying to take back the Silmarils....

Had there been no Kin Slaying, the Valar would not hold a grudge against the Noldor and perhaps would have helped them counter Morgoth earlier...

Sky raises a good point..if we want to play a blame game, it would go back to Feanor's creation of them... that's the title of the book...the SIlmarillion which means that had there not been Silmarils in the first place, Morgoth wouldnt' have desired them and Feanor wouldn't have died trying to get them back and maybe Beleriand would still stand and there would be more elves in the 3rd age =)

[Skyfiery]

Actually, what I was trying to say is that it was Feanor's own folly and brashness that led to all the hurts, and not the making of the Silmarils themselves, because the Silmarils were his work, which he had a right to create. But he had the choice to take the oath, or not, and he took it.

Sky :blush:

[Periantari Andruil]

nevertheless i think you raise a good point, Sky :thumbs:...but which oath are you talking about? the oath in which he swore that he'll take them back and go against the wishes of the Valar?

[Skyfiery]

Aw...shucks. Lol. :blush:

Yeah, the oath which he swore to hunt Vala, or Elf, or Men or orcs or whatever that withholds any Silmarils from him.

Sky

[Gil Galad]

but if u want to play the blame game then it has to be Erus fault for making Feanor

[David D]

Gil Galad I think you may have stumled on to something. Feanor is born with unrivalled power and might. He has greater power than most Maia and could probably even hold his own for a while against a Valar. He is the mightiest elf in all parts of body and mind. Thus I am wondering why and elf has such power.

Maybe it was part of Eru's plan to give Feanor so much power so that he could create the Silmarilliens. Perhaps Eru may have intended for Feanor to create, had he not been marred, things more powerful than the Silmarilliens. I do not feel that Feanor's might is by chance.

[Lady Melody]

Like I said much earlier before;

Who the hell created the Silmarils in the first place?

He created it for reasons of his own, and paraded it around. It roused certain emotions in the wrong sort of people, and badabig badaboom things go wrong in a chain of events.

Still, if it wasn't for the creation of the Silmarils, the valars wouldn't have gone to face Morgoth/Melkor in the first place, and the elves would be wholly wiped out. No elves... and naturally, no men.

[Finrod Felagund]

So Feanor saved Men...
That's a new twist :p

[Lasgalen]

If Fëanor never got the Noldor to follow him to ME, there would be no Eärendil. Without the voyage of Eärendil, the Valar would never have gotten off their butts to take care of Melkor. With Melkor free to do as he wishes, the Edain would have become his thralls. I think Lady Melody has a valid point.

[Arien]

If anyone should be blamed it should be Morgoth, Feanor, perhapse even Thingol, but just partly. But I belive that Elves could not defeat Morgoth, even if Men helped them.

[Ereinion]

Welcome Arien! :wave:
I think you're right, the Elves couldn't defeat Morgoth,for he is a Vala, and even the messanger of the Valar told Feanor before his leaving Valinor that he could never defeat a Vala, and if he, the mightiest of all children of Iluvatar, couldn't do it, nobody could....

[Gil Galad]

but if the Elves had have behaved when they were brought to Valinor the Valar wud have gone after morgoth when they discovered that men had awoke, just like they did when Orome found the Elves, and maybe we might be living in Valinor(ok unlikely since we wud burn out like a flame being burned to hotly) or atleast get visited by the Valar from time to time to make sure it was all going well for us