On the Size Relation Between Lands

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Gandalf the Grey, Bethberry and I have all discussed this before, but I would like all yall Ringers to share your thoughts on the subject.

What exactly are the proportions of Beleriand to Middle-Earth?b

I've seen many maps that try to incorporate the two land masses together as a unified continent, some good, some well... well no comment. What are your thoughts on this matter.

I myself like Karlyn Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle Earth" map of the two connected. Beleriand I see as about the same size as Eriador to the Eastern edge of Mirkwood, and then as far south as the White Mountains I suppose.

I have seen one map where Beleriand is shown as massive in comparison. I thought this accurate once, but a friend proved otherwise. This particular map had Beleriand stretch all the way down and almost past the Bay of Belfalas, having the Gelion a continental dividing river, much like the Amazon.

[Aragorn Isildur]

As i understood it MiddleEarth was a small land over the eastern mountains in Beleriand.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

That's not quite what I'm looking for Aragorn_Isildur (that must be a burden being one's own heir ;) ). Would you care to ellaborate, either on your own views on the subject, or perhaps where you drew your conclusions from.

Are you suggesting that the Middle Earth of the Second and Third Ages was far smaller than Beleriand?

[Aragorn Isildur]

Yes, Most of Beleriand was destroyed during the Valars assault on Morgoth.

[Fatty]

Well thi sis soething I am looking at, I agree the Atlas redition is not bad, but I think that some of the work in there is a bit flaky. Not my favourite book. The problem is Tolkien is inconsistant with tlengths of journeys and distances. I will need to search through the silmarillion for references to distances etc. We wil be publishing a load of this info in the future.

But I would say that it was roughly one and a half times its width in length, its width being N to S stretching the length of the Eren Luin.

Given the remains of Ossiriand in the 3rd Age I cannot see how it could have stretched way dow south.

[Aragorn Isildur]

Im pretty sure most was buried beneath the sea...including one of the Silmarils.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

I tend to agree Fatty on your rough calculations. Basically if you place Ered Luin of the First Age over Ered Luin of the Second Age, you'll probably get a pretty good idea of the size relation. The only problem with the Silmarillion is that it has very little comments regarding the distances of Beleriand. I would be extremely interested in checking out that info once you have it up. Excellent idea too by the by.

[Fatty]

Now now folks lets calm down. Keep it friendly, we have moderators to watch for people posting irrelevant messages etc.

I think what Aragorn_Isildur thought, was that I was reffering to Berleriand as if it was still above sea in 3rd age. But I was just referring to the part of Ossiriand which was.

Anyways please be civil, don't address people in a way you would not do so in real life, even if they are annoying you.
:dragon: Take it easy. :grin:


Thanks

Fatty

Oh! Some interesting maps should be arriving in a month or so, fully rendered 3d with landscape views etc. Once I get to grip with new software. :-)

[Algamesh]

Fatty, well said!

When discussing topics such as distances in Tolkien's world between the Ages, it's really anybody's guess. We have to remember that JRRT was an author ... not a geographer and certainly not an accomplished cartographer.

So, this leaves us to form our own opinions concerning such matters. There will never be a right or a wrong when dealing with the specificity that we are trying to place upon this subject. This being the case, a posted opinion or response could easily be mis-interpreted.

Personally, I enjoy the posts, knowledge, and enthusiasm of both you guys. So ... please ... let's not let this get ugly :naughty: :thumbs:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Sorry if I seemed too harsh, I thought I had treated the situation in a calm, reasonable manner. But perhaps I do get a little too carried away when it comes to certain things involving Tolkien. My point was, all that information really doesn't help my question. I understand that citizens interpret questions very differently from each other, but shouldn't reading and understanding be just as important? Ok enough, I'm not an administrator so I'll poke my nose back out of such business. My apologies if I seemed too harsh.

Now, about these rendered maps. How 3-dimensional are we talking here? And what program are you using to create them. I am a 3-D Animation major so such maps would definetly be of interest. A combination of two of my utmost loves, remarkable!!!

[Fatty]

AH cool, well we should chat. I am making grayscale heightfields, using bryce, soon vue d'esprit and terragen to make them. But email or AIM or MSN me if you want to talk some more about it. Maybe you could help out with it. :-)

[Aragorn Isildur]

Did i miss something?

[Algamesh]

Aragorn_Isildur,

Nah, you didn't miss anything! Just a difference of opinion that was worked out.


Orofacion,

I really know what you mean ... isn't it amazing how Tolkien's works stir such emotions so deeply ... hahahaha. Everything is fine! Now, let's continue with this discussion. I may have an opinion to contribute here but I'm going to double-check K.W. Fonstad's Atlas. What's your opinion of this resource?

Oh yeah ... that software that Fatty is referring to is amazing. I'm sure that he could really use a helping hand as well. If this is an interest, you should jump on the offer. I would help but I'm daunted by anything much more complicated than "stickmen" hahahaha.

[Algamesh]

Orofacion,

In my last post, I asked about your opinion of Fonstad's Atlas. I know that you commented that you enjoyed it previously but I was wondering what were your opinions on it's accuracy.

I thought about creating some overhead projector transparencies and trying to overlay them using an identical scale. That would probably be very interesting in understanding the shaping of Arda. If I can get this project off the ground ... I'll submit the overlays to Fatty. Maybe he can post them somewhere.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Algamesh,

Mrs. Fonstad's Atlas is a wonderful work, though its accuracy I am not totally sure of. Since Christopher Tolkien had no serious hand in its creation, I doubt, much like I doubt any non-Tolkien produced material, it's reliability.

However, for the broad mass of information given within it, it's hard not to pass it off as unsubmiscible. The various climate and ecology maps are amazing. The maps on the various journeys of cultures and/or peoples are just as impressive. Although what bothers me about the Atlas is the evolution of Arda's continental bodies. There really isn't enough actual information to render a fully accurate geological evolution, but from what Fonstad has included is very believable.

Her rendering of the size relation is somewhat resembling what I picture in my head, but slightly smaller than I imagined. She has Beleriand as about the size of Eriador more or less. I always say Beleriand as Eriador plus half of Mirkwood combined. The First Age held many kingdoms that stretched far and wide. Such a small land mass would not hold such kingdoms easily. This is why I believe Beleriand should be slightly larger than Mrs. Fonstad's interpretation.

I don't have the Atlas, but do plan on purchasing it very soon. However, overall I'd have to say it is an excellent work and resource for say, a MERP or Fanfic author, but as far as reliable Tolkien reference, read the books.

[Aragorn Isildur]

Is this the same atlas that has sketches of flets and Helms Deep etc?