Morgoth V.S Manwë

[Lhuntidomion]

Brute strength! No aid! No cheating! Who would win between the brothers? Tolkien says that Melkor was made mightiest of the Ainur. And I want it to be in their prime. So which of the brothers? My vote goes to Morgoth. He was mightiest. And Manwë is a bit soft. No offense to the Manwë lovers out there!!

[Voroturiön]

Manwe! Manwe! Manwe! Because he is dearest to Illuvatar, I am sure that would swing things in his favor.

[Gwaihir]

I think Manwe will win, because the thoughts of Iluvatar are revealed to him. It is written that Manwe and Morgoth are brothers in power, but since Melkor became evil, he lost his power little by little. And, I know that Eru will not let evil prevail on Arda, which he loves.

[Lhuntidomion]

Yeah but remember they're in their prime ppl. And forget about everything else. They are just fighting with their hands and feet. No aid which means the Eru won't help Manwë.

[Lasgalen]

Morgoth would win because he is evil. Manwe doesn't know how to use dirty tricks.

[Gwaihir]

Yeah but when Morgoth tried to attack Manwe, Manwe just blew gently and stopped it.

[Algamesh]

Alright ... I'll throw a little conjecture in here ... lol

I just need some explanations about this "Who Whips Who" topic. First of all, what does "mightiest" mean here? Is that brute strength, intelligence, commanding presence, or what?

Personally, I think that Melkor has two problems in this battle. I feel like Manwe is probably more wise and intelligent ... this goes a long way. Also, Melkor is a coward. The only fights he ever stood up to were with Elves - inferior to Valar in every way. I think his fear of his brethren would have played a big role.

Lastly, we all know that good conquers evil, right ;) !

Give me Manwe ... the Fonzi of all Valar everywhere! :thumbs:

[Gil Galad]

yeh definitely Manwe because of the fear that Morgoth knows(lets face it he's a craven), altho im not sure wot u mean by just their hands and feet Lhuntidomion, they r Ainur they can take wotever form they want, and anyway even if it was goin ill for him Manwe has friends that he can rely on, and then of course there is that guy Eru who Manwe knows most of his thought and Manwe is dearest to him

[David D]

The question of who would win would depend at what time they fought. Also its hard to judge Manwe's skill at combat. The best fighter as obviously Tulkus. Tolkien does say on many occasions that Melkor was the mightiest thing ever created. However, this does not mean he was the most powerful in a fight (since that was Tulkus) and is probably linked more to his creative abilities and such. In the end I am unsure, but am inclined to say Melkor.

[Gil Galad]

it is a tough one to call, and lets face it, it wud never happen, neither were fighters persay, that was the job of Tulkas, Orome, Manwe Herald something beginin wit E i think , and the balrogs and other demons on the other side.


but i think Manwe

[Lasgalen]

Melkor was pretty tough in the beginning. "and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them..." Manwe might be wiser, and he is too good to cheat. That is where Melkor will get his victory. IMO

[Gil Galad]

nah nah nah, Manwe knows to much of the mind of Eru to be beaten by a craven like Morgoth

[Númenórean]

Originally posted by Algamesh
Also, Melkor is a coward.

I agree with you there. Morgoth feared everything: Manwé, Ulmo, Tulkas (have to agree with him there), Yavanna (what can she do against his evil :huh: ), Maedhros, Fingolfin, all men. I mean he's a Valar for crying out loud! Morgoth would probably be to scared to get close to Manwë and he would pu that into his advantage. I don't like Manwë but I think he'll win this fight. And besides good always beats evil in the end.:thumbs:

[Alatar]

Yeahlol he was a little girl in the form of an evil mastermind

[Gil Galad]

that was beautifully said Alatar, absolutly beautiful. but in fairness if he'd have had more self confidence he'd have been victorious (i think thats a big problem amaong super villians), but if he was confident , he probably wudnt have felt the need to rule the world, he just wud have been happy in his own being

[Kenzie]

i'd say manwe.... he was very wise and brave and that is almost as good if not better than pysical strenghth wich melkor possesed

[Gil Galad]

did he actuially have that much physical strenght? cos Tulkas took him out wit ease

[Élion]

Come on, Manwë would never beat Morgoth... If he could have, he would have... At the very start Morgoth was way more powerfull than Manwë. :evilcool: It was all the Valar against Morgoth and still they couldn't get him down. If Manwë could defeat Morgoth (which he couldn't) why would he need all the other Valar for?

Yes, Morgoth fled for Manwë, but only because Tulkas was pursuing him as well (for whom he was afraid, and rightly so, but we're not voting on that). Two against one is unfair :nono: Manwë is clearly a pushover, who can't fight his own wars. I can't believe you all voted for him.

[Gil Galad]

ah but did Manwe not win in the end?

[Élion]

Manwë won in the end but it was not in a dual between him and Morgoth. In was hardy a fair battle for Manwë had 15 other Valar on his side... He won because he simply had more friends than Morgoth. I Gues Morgoth's public relations had always been kinda bad... lol

[Lasgalen]

Plus Morgoth's power had diminished over time. He had spent himself making his evil servants.

[Gil Galad]

but is that not one of Manwe strenghts, that he made friends. and also he was the rightful king so they were all his servents, just like morgoth had servent s to help him

[Ithielnor]

Las just made a great point. Morgoth's power deminished as he tied him self more and more to the earth.

I think that before Melkor's mind started to stray form Iluvatar he was probably more powerful than Manwe. But his thinking and working outside Ilu's will started him on a downward slide and by the time he got to Numenor he would have been beaten by Manwe.

[Ithielnor]

Bah! What am I thinking Numenor? That was Sauron.

But my point is Morgoth decreased in strangth.

[Gil Galad]

i got wot u mean Ithielnor, but i think even from the start, when morgoth was the most powerful, he wud have been defeated, his pride and willfulness wud have brought him down

[Élion]

If Manwë on his own could defeat Morgoth how can you explain that Morgoth was such a big problem to the Valar? I mean, there were 16 Valar against 1 Morgoth, so he must have been very, very powerful. They fought him time and time again, but did they every win? No. Only in the end were the Valar (all of them, not just Manwë) able to take Morgoth down. At the start, he was unbeatable...

At the start all the 16 Valar had was one little island; Valinor. The Valar fled to Valinor because Morgoth was to strong for them. Morgoth controled the rest of the world, he had way more territory than the other Valar combined... There must have been a reason for this, right?

[Gil Galad]

they didnt feel from him, they could have taken him out at any time, but they didnt wish to because of teh wreck and ruin that it wud involve

[David D]

At the beginning there is reallyno doubt that Morgoth would have defeated Manwe. The silmarillien on many occasions states he was the mightiest thing in Arda and the mightiest thing in the universe save Eru. Later on I don't think his power dimished,but became spread out. All orcs, dragons and even the land of Arda itself had some of his power. Manwe would not have been able to put his very essence into the entire earth the way that Melkor did.

[Gil Galad]

i dissaggree, i believe that there is soem contradiction on this matter in almost all the books, in that it is sometimes said that Manwe was Coeval with Melkor, and then at other times that one was more powerful. i think what made Melkor seem most powerful was that he had in part the powers of all the Vala, so he could contest with them all. but Manwe had had most of teh mind of Eru, and is knowledge not the true power.

also , moroths power did diminish, it is said that he "spent his power on ...." this shows that it left him

[David D]

I don't think there is that much doubt. Manwe was coeval with Melkor, but Melkor was the greater. Manwe knew the most about Eru, but he never had the innate power to accomplish what Melkor could.

Melkor's power left him in a similar sense that Sauron put his power into the one ring. The orcs, dragons and others were merely an extension of him. They had no will, but to serve him and in could be said that they were still part of his power. Morgoth's put his energy into the very earth so that his will would dominate those around him. Melkor's very ring was Arda itself.

[Gil Galad]

true, but that is true of all the vala they were all bound to the earth, and all there powers were bound to Arda. Orcs had will of there own, it was merely dominated by Morgoth. and it was through the torture and evil deeds that he commited that his power left him