Turin Turambar

[Lasgalen]

Turin is one of the most tragic characters in the Silmarillion. Did he bring it upon himself, or was it the curse of Morgoth? Some of it may have been the curse, but I think Turin caused a lot of his own problems. Not only was he moody, but he was also prideful. After he killed Saeros, King Thingol pardoned him, but he refused to accept the pardon. Even after Beleg searched him out and begged him to return, he still refused. His whole future could have been different if only he had listened to his good friend, Beleg. He might never have encountered Glaurung and could have avoided the whole Niniel thing. I think most of his problems were his own doing and not the result of Morgoth's curse. What are your thoughts?

[Lhuntidomion]

Hmm. You've some good points but hey, he was the last remaining (or so he thought) Heir of Hador. It's sorta his job to take care of the House of Hador. Then an elf who's always hated you dares to mock the women of your race? What is that? That calls for some anger. Then when he waylays you with sword and shield? But Túrin should've excepted Thingol's pardon. I agree with you on that. But by that time he'd already met the outlaws. Then on, it was the curse working it's way around him.

[Númenórean]

Well... he was cursed when he was very young so maybe it's by the curse that he became so proud and stubborn. It's his pride that set the tragic events into motion and then the curse did the rest. But I have to agree: he should have listened to Beleg. He could have saved himself a lot of trouble.

[Finrod Felagund]

Was Morgoth's Curse really a curse or was a little Valarian prescience? My vote is for prescience.

Therefore:

Turin was a punk. He is my favorite character to hate. He brought nearly all of his troubles on himself, much to the sorrow of those around him. Nobody that associated with him were better off: Beleg, Gwindor, Finduilas, Orodreth, Nargothrond and through a few degrees of separation Doriath (Hurin takes the Nauglamir, from Glauring's horde in Nargothrond, to Thingol and we know what happens to the Nauglimir)(Doriath a bit of a stretch though)

Besides the Death of Glarung, is there anything that turned out well because of him

[Lasgalen]

Even after Ulmo sent warning, he stubbornly insisted on that stupid bridge of his. His stubborness is the cause of more problems than Morgoth's curse.

[Ludibunda]

I fiond it curious that there is no option for Turin's salvation. Even the worst punk has some redeeming quality or can repent. Not only is Turin cursed from the beginning, but he's prideful and violent and refuses repentance.
Does he represent the worst of human will? Are there people we know like Turin? I like best the way that Lasgalen describes him - tragic!

[David D]

Turin may have been abit arrogant, but hehad many great qulities. He was always noble and ind to all those he met. He pitied the plight of those suppressed by Morgoth and did his best to help.

You can not blame Turin for the death of Beleg and he did not kill Saeros. Saeros attemtped to murder him, Turin only tried to exact a fitting retrubution. Turin by the law of that time probably had every right to kill Saeoros, but he showed pity and spared himhis life. It was just pure misfortune that Saeros happened to die.

As for the case of Nargothrond. I agree with Tuin's mentallity, that no matter how hard they tried they would eventualy be destroyed by the forces of Morgoth. Turin urged them to die sooner, but to die at a time that they chose. He claimed that Morgoth would be able to take thier lives, but never could he alter the glorious deeds that they did. He was under no dillusion that by building the bridge it would not lead to the destrction of Nargothrond. He embraced the idea that he would die, but prepared to do so in a way whih he saw fit. The peole of Nargothrond agreed with his reasoning.

Ludibunda I would arge that Turin was an example of human will at its finest. He is a man yet he gains control of an elvish city, he is apparently a punk, but gives the outlaws morals, he is a mere mortal yet defeats the father of all dragons.

Turin strove with fate itself and came out victorious. In the end not even the doom appointed to all men could control the will of Turin, who returns like one of the Valar to slay Morgoth.

[Lasgalen]

Turin may have been ready to die, but he should not have dragged an entire Elven community with him. They had plenty of glorious deeds without building a bridge, which btw Ulmo counseled against. But Turin was too stubborn to listen to a Vala. He wanted things done his way.

Turin may have strove with fate, but he was not victorious. He killed himself because he could not escape Morgoth's curse. That sounds like giving up more than being victorious.

[David D]

Lasgalen Turin did not force the elves to folow him. He simply gave them his opinion and they chose to folow him. Ulmo may have counseled against it, but the city would still have fallen. No matter what the elves did the city would fall. Turin persuaded them to die in a glorious battle, doing tremendous hurt to Morgoth rather tha be routed in their city.

By kiling himself he was showing that he had the power to choose when to end his life and again maintaining control. Turin killing himself proved that Morgoth could not control him and he could escape from the curse. Turin also comes back to be the one to slay Morgoth and get his revenge. He was not giving up, but taking the gift of Eru and biding his time till he was able to exact his revenge.

[Lasgalen]

The way I read it, sounded more like he was dying out of despair because the footsteps of doom has caught up with him than out of biding his time.

[Periantari Andruil]

I think i agree most with what Lasgalen and what Finrod said.. i did not like Turin for I thought he was prideful and stubborn.. Even when he had slain Beleg, I thought that this was the first out of many murders that he would commit.. i found it only fitting that he kill himself...
but one redeeming thing that he did was that he killed Glaurung, and for that I praise him... but i think it was a combination of his stubborness and the curse that Morgoth put on his kin that made him so unlucky in whatever he does in life...
Even though, he is one of the most tragic characters in the book, I also thought that he had no other way when he avoided going back to Doriath and instead live out in the wild... he knows that he would bring to whomever bad luck so maybe it was a good thing that he stayed out of Doriath...
but i do not understand why he decided to go to Nargothond... if i were him, i would just stay out in the wild for he knows that wherever he will go, bad luck will follow...

he was lucky in the fact that he met people willing to listen to him because he was the son of Hurin... but without that kinship link, i do not think he would win as many friends that he did...
i was really surprised that he did not follow Beleg even though he pleaded for him to go back to Doriath ... was this because of the fact that he had slain Saeros? He seemed to have led a good life in Doriath...if i were him, i would have sought out his mother and sister just to tell them that he's well... and not let them wander out and try to seek him out as they did and that resulted in the downfall of Nienel...

soo...those are my thoughts so far about the chapter Turin Turumbar... tragic he was...and i think basically that it was a combination of bad luck in the form of Morgoth's curse, and his own pridefulness that led to his downfall....

[David D]

Turin did not have people listen to him, because he was the son of Hurin. He already had the love of Findullas and respect of all people in Nargothrond before they found out his paternity. Turin like I said before hada natural ability to fit into whatever society he went in, whether it be with a dwarf, men or elvs.

Turin had good reasons for not returning to Doriath. One of those reasons are that he had grown to love the outlaws nd felt repsonsible for them. Another is that he felt that he had no opputunities to avenge Lalaith against Morogth while he was in Doriath.

Turin killig Beleg was a tragic act, which could have happened even if he was still in Doriath. I also feel that Turin never truly enjoyed his life in Doriath. Turin had a great love for his family and would have missed them terribly. The only time that I truly believe Turin was happy was when he lived in Dor-Lomin. Anyway was Turin prouder than Fingolfin, who everybdy seems to love? Or was he mor stubborn than the likes of Galadriel?

[Gil Galad]

he was no doubtedly cursed from a young age, and that wud set him to his "moody"ness. but his pride was something of a flaw in him, he believed that Nargothrond cud stand in a open assault against teh dragon, even tho it was well nown that his fire was a deadly bane to the elves(and all but the Dwarves) he believed that victory wud come from that battle, and yes maybe he was tryin to die an honourable death, but that is nothing more then his pride showing itself again (oh by the way David D, where is it said that Turin will slay morgoth?cos i cant find i anywhere) in that he mite win a place in history, instead of doing what wud be best for everyone else. oh and Fingolfin had much more reason to be proud then turin (even tho he wasnt) he was teh son of Finwe, and he faced and wounded greavously morgoth, whereas Turin stabbed a much lessor foe in teh dark, if the dragon had been good and turin the servant of morgoth this wud b seen as a terible act, but because turin was teh good guy, it was a very brave thing.

oh and something else about him , when he met the two outlaws running after the woman, why didnt he kill them both, they had/were about to commit the most terible act imaginable, and yet he let one live and held him high in his counsels.

it was pride that stopped him goin straight to his mother after he left doriath(if he had done then he wud have met his sister under different circumstances) and it was pride that stopped him returning to doriath

[David D]

The prophecy is in the People of Middle Earth.

First of all you said that Turin did not have as mucht o be proud off. Well firstly he was the son of the greatest warrior that has ever lived. Secondly he was the fairest of all mortal men to live. Then there was such things as him developing agility like an elf. I am also sure that Turin would be ablt to defeat Fingolfin in battle. When he was just a boy he had elf maids falling in love with him and mighty elf lords preparing to die for him. He is the only person to ever be adopted by an elf king. He has the abilty to take control of every where he goes and he is prophecised to come back from the dead. Yet you feel that Fingolfin had more to be proud off. If you read the Shibboleth of Feanor you realise that Finolfin was not as noble as he seems and lied about his brother to get the support of the Noldor.

Turin did not know about Glaurung attacking Nargothrond. As for him urging the elves to fight it wa ther choice. He knew that all the cities of the Noldor would be destroyed as did the elves of Nargothrond. He never promised them victory against Morgoth, but a chance to exact revenge. The elves obviouslt thought he was talking sense. Your last point is ridiculous. Well if Sauron was good and Frodo sneakily destroyed his ring, which he needed to live that would be a terrible act.

Anyway the killing of Glaurung was a far greater deed than he is given credit for. Fingon was given praise for driving a baby Glaurung away with an entire army at his back. Melian says that nothing on Middle Earth ( this includes her, Galadriel, Thingol, Turgon and the balrogs) has the power to match him. Turn literally does the impossible and kills a beast with surpassing power. Fingolfin would not have done this deed.

[Finrod Felagund]

Bard killed Smaug in much the same way except it took more skill.

Turin gave his opinion?, he shamed the elves of Nargothrond into building the bridge and not listening to Ulmo, he even insulted Ulmo's messengers, yep, real honorable.
He NEVER learned from his mistakes, he should have learned from Saeros and Beleg that actions based on emotions can have drastic consequences.
"Build a bridge so we can fight like Heros" and draw Morgoth's attention so he knows EXACTLY where to send Glaurung and his army AND give Glaurung a nice pathway to run right up the steps and incinerate the doors, let in his orcs who enslave all the men and rape all the women.
"What does Cirdan know about, he ain't so smart. Hey, I know, lets send his messangers packing and call them cowards"
oops...
"I'll show that dragon I'm no coward, I'll lift up the visor of my magic helmet that protects me from him" and Finduilas and the rest of Nargothrond gets paraded past me on their way to Angband, but not before a little rape and torture first.

Turin able to defeat Fingolfin??? You are talking about the Fingolfin who cut up a Vala, who had been fighting battles before Turin's greatgreatgreatetc grandfather was born, who had seen The Trees right? Please remember, in Tolkien's world, power was hereditary and the closer you got to the top the more power you had. Fingolfin was the son of the original King of the Noldor. Finrod almost defeated Sauron and he was just Fingolfin's nephew. Turin wouldn't have a chance.

If he'd swallowed his pride and returned with his most trusted friend and mentor Beleg, he would have recieved forgiveness and not acquired all the angst that later fueled his later debacles

The KING of DORIATH BEGGED him to come back but would Turin's pride allow this, no, he's a punk and the rest of Beleriand suffered for it.

Lessons to learn from Turin:
1. Learn from your mistakes, if you keep putting your hand on the hot plate and it hurts, STOP.
2. Unrestricted Pride will be your downfall. It's good to take pride in what you do and try to excel, but you must sometimes swallow that pride for the greater good.
3. Choose your battles carefully. If your opponent can't beat your your armor, DON'T take it off. AND... Shank him in a vulnerable spot when he is not looking.

[David D]

Bard killed a dragon, but there is a difference between the father of all dragons and Smaug. Turin did a feat,which no one alive would have been able to do it. It was not a one in a million shot,but a carefully executed plan. Turin promised himself that no matter what happened Glaurung would die.

Turin like I said before was not under any dillusions. He knew that by fighting openly he was dooming Nargothrond, but h warned the people. Fingolfinlead his people through the Hellaxe and into a war against a Valar. Which one was more stupid and cost more lives? Fingolfin had a chance to e wise and repent, but did he? The answer is no yet people always harp on about how Turin was over proud.

Turin had a hapy childhood, but Morgoth still reached out and killed his sister. He realised that there was no escape from Morgoth and it was better to burn the tips of his fingers and do suc glorious deeds that even orcs would remember than to die in your homes.

First of all power was not competely hereditary. If that was the case how could Feanor have had such incredible power. Turin was stronger than Fingolfin. Turin had a better sword than Fingolfin. Turin was just as agile as Fingolfin. Turin was the son of Hurin. You forget that the men of Hador were the equal of elf lords. Fingolfin wounded Morgoth, but Morgoth would never have dared to fight Hurin. Gothmog a balrog, who sayed many Noldor princes, was frightened of facing Hurin. Hurin fought an entire army by himself.

Turin was the greatest warrior in both Doriath and Nargothrond. Ths would inlude all those super powerful elves that inherited incredible warrior abilities from Finwe.

What makes people think that Turin enjoyed staying in Doriath. He was insulted by membes of the court and was an outsider. He swallowed his pride enough not to attack Saeros after all those insults. He had enough nobilit to spare his lie. He was noble enough to spare Mim. Turin wanted to hurt Morgoth for all the pain he went through and he was being stopped from filling his full potential. The angst that fueled the burning hatred he had for Morgoth came, because of the death of his sister and not leaving Doriath.

Turin did have to much pride, but so did feanor, Fingolfin, Finrod and Galadriel, who to went against the Valar and attacked Morgoth. Turin made mistakes, but so did others. Turin had a good heart and was compassionte to those he met. Both ended in the destruction of their people, but allowed them to achieve great deeds. Personally I think Turin's inciting the Narogthrond elves to fight was better than Fingolfin leading the Noldor from peace in Valinor to death in middle earth.

Turin did learn from his mistakes and tried to have a peaceful life. He even gave up fighting., but Morgoth would not rest whilst he lived and he was forced to take up his sword. Morgoth put all hs energy in ruining this one man, yet Turin came through it the end. Nobody deserves to slay Morgoth than he does and Turin is the only man ever, who could come back from the dead to achieve his revenge.

[Finrod Felagund]

Putting Feanor on the same level of stupid pride as Turin, sure; Fingolfin, maybe...
But Finrod and Galadriel ?!?!?!?! PLEASE
Finrod's sacrifice saved both the Elves and Men (without him, Beren dies, no silmaril, no Earendil making it to Valinor and no War of Wrath ==> Morgoth wins)
Galadriel stuck around to help save ME from Sauron

On to my rebuttal:
Tolkien's First Age heroes were notoriously hard headed. Fingolfin might be second to Turin in that department. And I'm not arguing the point that Fingolfin was any smarter or wiser than Turin.

Turin was a great and courageous warrior no doubt, but having a sword that cuts iron like wood improves one's odds...


Going out in a blaze of glory is all well and good if you are a warrior who only cares about his name being remembered in songs, but if you have a wife and children and folks who depend on you to keep them ALIVE , a blaze of glory is only a firey, painful death. As long as one is alive there is hope, only with death do things really get hopeless.

Turin was stronger than Fingolfin. Turin had a better sword than Fingolfin. Turin was just as agile as Fingolfin.
Please give your reasoning for these, I'm intrigued.

First of all power was not competely hereditary. If that was the case how could Feanor have had such incredible power.
Maybe inherited is the wrong word, as a general rule, it seemed that the closer you got to Finwe, Olwe, Ingwe, and Elwe the more inherent power, Feanor and Galadriel were described as the most powerful Noldor and Ingwe the greatest Elf period.
Turin was the son of Hurin. You forget that the men of Hador were the equal of elf lords.
I won't say anything about the inheritable power point...
Gothmog a balrog, who sayed many Noldor princes, was frightened of facing Hurin. Hurin fought an entire army by himself.
Morgoth, a Vala was scared of Fingolfin...
Glaurung, a dragon and creation of said Vala, was not scared of Turin.
Turin challenged Glaurung and the Dragon enthralled him with a stare and only held back because he knew that Turin would do more harm to the enemies of Morgoth alive

It took a gang of Balrogs to take out Feanor (Fingolfin's brother), Turgon and Fingon (Fingolfin's sons) face to face. Sauron had to resort to guilt to defeat Finrod (Fingolfin's nephew). Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 or 8 times face to face. This is a god now, not a creation of a god. All Morgoth's creatures fled before Fingolfin.
Turin was paralyzed with a look from Glaurung. Turin hid and shanked him in the belly. No great feat of skill, courage yes (lots), well excecuted plan sure, skill... nope
Wounding a GOD multiple times in a face to face duel. , also lots of courage but much more skill and no plan whatsoever

Was Turin a great warrior, absolutely. But could he take an Elf lord (son/grandson of any of the four Elf Kings) face to face, my paycheck, house and firstborn are on the pointy ears.


P.S.
Did Morgoth really have it out for Turin or did he just see Turin as an instrument to defeat his foes. (at which Turin succeeded wonderfully)

[David D]

First of all all the leaders of the Noldor were very arrogant to want to rule their own lands. Galadriel did evolve into very noble character, but earlier on she hada desire fo power and cared litte for anything else. Thats the reason why the leaders of the Noldor were banned from returning. They were excptionally proud and lead their peope into suffering. I am not saying that Finrod and Galadriel were not heroic just in their youngr days they made foolish choices due to their pride. I personally don't thik Turin was any more rash or prideful than any of the Noldor pinces with the obvious excption of Finarfin.

Turin did not force the elves to fight and he mentioned how the wives of men Hador were prepared to sacrifice their husbands. They were ashamed at the fact that they were hiding whilst brave men were dying.They agreed with his ideas. A lot o the blame must be put on their own heads for agreeing with him

Ingwe was not the greatest elf that was Luthien. Ingwe was the High King of the elves.

Feanor's last stand was impressive, but it pales in comparions t Hurin's. Feanor had companion whilst Hurin was by himself. Feanor was fighting a handful of Morgth's army, where as Hurin faced the entire army. Feanor lasted a long time, but Hurin lasted hours. Hurin also killed either 70 cave trolls or 1000 orcs. Hurin looked at Morgoth and mocked him. Nobody else had such courage or strength of will to resist him. Hurin was offered Sauron's position.if this does not reflect his power then nothing will.

You say that Fingolfin wounded Morgoth,but I believe Turin and Hurin could have done better. Turin afterall is prophecised to kill Morgoth. If you do not believe that the he was destined to kill Anchalagon the black in combat instead. This was to be the desicive act in winning the war of wrath.

Turins path to rach the dragon was remarkabe and don't forget that he had stabbed in the eye the first time they had met.

Nobody in Middle Earth had the power to withstand Glaurung. The only person that perhaps could have resisted him would be Hurin. Finrod was defeated by Sauron in a contest of magic Luthien beat Sauron in such a contest and we know Luthien was not exceptionaly good in a physical fight. What Finrod did was impessive, but it does not mean hewas a good warrior.

Well I will now list arguments why Turin was the a better warrior than an elf. First of all his cousin Tuor defeated the second mightiest elf in Gondolin Maeglin. That shows that men of the house Hador could defeat elven lords. Turin was clearly the best warrior in Doriath and Nargothrond. Thus he was better than Elwe, Celebrian,Ordoreth and Celebrimbor to name a few. When it came to killing Turin was very, very good.

I also don't think that you would disagree that Turin would have the better sword.

Tolkien also mentioned how the dragon's helm was too heavy for Fingolfin to wear so he gave it the men of Hador, who were stroner. Tolkien in the Unfinished Tales says that Turin had trained very hard and was stronger than ANY elf and just s agile. Tolkien would not have written thisby accident.

In Nargothrond Turin quickly becomes the greatest warrior in the city. He is so famous that even people in Doriath here about hm. The elves believe he is so good that none can kill him in combat. Once again here he surpasse descendents of Finwe.

Morgoth was out to ruinTurin's life and not use him. No one had ever stood up to him like Hurin did and it must have angered him to have those hometruths mentioned. His goal was to destroy Turin and he sent his greatest servant to do it. Thats why it is very fittin for Turin to return like one of the Valar to achieve his revenge. If Turin was not such noble character why would Tolkien give him such a great destiny.

[Lasgalen]

Ulmo warned against the bridge, but Turin had too much stubborness and foolish pride to listen. They had a good plan to wait in secrecy. "It is a prophecy among us that one day a messenger from Middle-earth will come through the shadows to Valinor, and Manwe will hear, and Mandos relent. For that time shall we not attempt to preserve the seed of the Noldor and of the Edain also?" So much for that plan. Thanks a lot Turin.

[Finrod Felagund]

Pales? these are the same critters that nearly destroyed a MAIA by the way.

Is it pride or ambition? I believe the nature of the Noldor were too inquisitive and adventurous to stay in Valinor. They were leaving the nest so to speak. They were chaffing under the Valar before Melkor came back and sowed his lies. Feanor just made their exit more dramatic, much more dramatic...

Who would you rather take on, a Man who can swing a mighty sword or a Elf woman who can raze a castle. My point is that the Elves had more power than just physical, that's what would tip the scale in Fingolfin's favor.

Confused: Turin and Ancalagon the Black? Earendil killed Ancalagon.


Tuor was noble, his fate was sundered from men and he joined with the Noldor and he and Idril lived happily ever after, Finrod is with his Father under the trees of Valinor and lived happily ever after, that is what Tolkien did with his noble characters. Turin killed himself on his own sword. A sword that was so enthusiastic, it talked.

If he wanted to destroy Turin, why didn't Glaurung just toast him when he had the chance at the Fall of Nargothrond? No doubt that Morgoth wanted to punish Hurin for his mockery but I think Hurin and his family were part of a larger plan and Morgoth being evil, took pleasure in causing as much misery as possible. In Hurin and his family, he saw possibilities to ruin all his enemies, which he did.

Glaurung and Morgoth played them like a base drum, He and his master pushed all the right buttons to get the desired effect
Turin and Hurin were at the root of the fall of THREE Elf Kingdoms. Which do you think brought Morgoth more joy, ruining two men's life or ruining three Elf kingdoms, enslaving and killing countless elves, his sworn enemies. Though both Morgoth and Glaurung giggled like school girls at the misery they caused Hurin and his family

Yes, I would disagree,

Ringil vs Gurthang:
Tolkien tells very little of the qualities of Ringil, consider this though:
If Anglachel (later reforged in Nargothrond into Gurthang) had been such a mighty weapon, why didn't Thingol chose it as his personal weapon? I would think that kings get the most potent weapons especially if they use them like Thingol and Fingolfin. Therefore I believe Ringil was the best the Elves had to offer. Ringil may have also been made in Valinor where even the dirt was magical. Anglachel was made by a Dark Elf with a dark heart. And in Tolkien's world, good always triumphed over evil (eventually)

[David D]

Well I have a few points to answer. The Noldor returning to Middle Earth was both prideful and ambitous like Turin. When Galadriel urged them to pass throught the Hellaxe she was endangering her people so she could get to her own land to rule. Turgon made a stupid mistake and did not listen to Ulmo either. Turin did the same thing that all the prideful elves did, which is seek glory over the safety of their people.

I agree with you that elves had incredible spiritual powers, but these were never used in combat. The most powerful elf Feanor did not use magic when he fought and either did any other elf. Luthien could not use magic when captured by Celebrimbor. The elvish magic was one that was never used in combat between two warriors so it woul not be used if the two fought. The earlier men definately had greater gifts than the men of later ages today. Not even a man like Aragorn would be able to withstand Morgoth, but Hurin did.

You mention how Tuor and Finrod are now had a happy end. Turin comes back as one of the gods and is called the conqueror of fate. This seems to be a higher position than living in Aman. Turin becomes one of the gods that control Aman.

Glaurung could not 'toast' Turin because he had dwarf armour. He was about to be killed so he appealed to Turin's ego. Turin made a stupd descision, but later he learnt from this and said that Glaurungs magical abilities were the most dangerous. Morgoth had a special point to proof with Hurin. He wanted to show him his power. This was his main goal and the fall of Doriath was to the obtaining of a Silmarillien and the fall of Gondolin had a lot to do with the betrayal of Meaglin.

ABout Gurthang vs Ringil. Ringil was made from common metal. Gurthang was made from metal that fell do from heaven. Tolkein said that the elves were superior to the dwarfs in everything apart from the forging of weapons since they did not practise this in Aman. Therefore Eol would have had more skill than even the mighty Feanor when it came to forging swords. The reason Thingol did not use the sword was, because he already had his own one and he knew the sword was evil. Yes good may eventually triumph, but it does not mean evil was no more powerful. Sauron would never have been defeated if their had not been an act of Eru. I don't think Eru would interfere in this confrontation especially on Turin, who he blessed so much.

[Finrod Felagund]

Bah!
he was a punk who couldn't polish Finrod's boots!

[Hobbit]

I have to agree with Finrod: No mortal man can live up to be as great and powerfull as the tallest amung the Noldor like Fingolfin, Maedhos and Finrod....
Maybe Turin had more fisical strenght but elves can for example heal from serious injuries which would undoubtibly kill a mortal man and the early elves posses so much more deeper powers to which men couldn't live up (the magical powers for example)

Turin might have been a great fighter, but becouse of his enormous ego and his immense pride ( he wouldn't even return to Doriath when someone who was far beyong his power and skill begged for him to return) I don't think of him as a true warrior.
The reason why Elendur was so tall and such a great warrior and leader is becouse he didn't had any wrong pride nor was his ego too big.
Turin was good, but in his mind he was far beyong what he truly was.
He was only the assistant of Orodreth yet he acted like he was already king. Becouse of these thing I didn't like him so much (yet I really enjoyed the story)

About Gurthang vs. Ringil. It was a great point about the dwarfsmiths and the elfsmiths from Valinor, but still I think Ringil would be of better use to it's wielder than Gurthang.
I mean Gurthang hated Turin and was happy to slay him in the end. With Gurthang he had slain Beleg and the guy who also wanted to marry Nienor (can't remember his name)
And although he achieved great victories with it also caused some of his greatest defeats.
Isn't it another example of stubbornes and pride that Turin wanted to wield an evil sword?

But I have to agree with you on one point David: one day Turin will be beyong any of the Noldor

[David D]

Elendil was tall because of his ancestory. He was a descendent of Tuor the tallest man, Thingol the tallest elf and Turgon the second tallest elf. He was from a tall family. Ar pharazon had a lot of pride and a incredible ego yet he created the greatest amy that had ever been seen. He was also better a warrior than Elendil.

Like I said before elvish magic could not be used in battle and never was. If that was the case how could Tuor have beated Maeglin or Beren defeated Celebrimbor. The elvish magic like their rings were not for conquest. A lot of elvish magic was also actually lore that men did now know. Therefore Turin being educated by elves would know a lt of elvish lore, which some might consider magic.

Turin did not agree with the policies that Thingol had and he must have felt like an outsider. In Doriath he had proven himself to be a man of honour and integrity yet everybody there were prepared to believe that he attacked and willingly killed Saeros. If you went to a school and a theft took place and everbody immediately thought it was you, would you be keen to remain at the school? Personally I believe that if Turin had remained in Doriath he would have ended up becoming the ruler like he did in Nargothrond.

Hobbit said that Turin had a too high opinion of himself. Turin realised that as a man he could accomplish anyhing he set his mind to. He was a firm believer in the fact that you made your own destiny. That lead him to try the impossible and attempt ludicrous deeds such as the slaying of Glaurung. However, he realised that Eru had given men the ability to change their fate and Turin certainly did this.

A side point about Gurthand is that in the end though the sword killed Turin, Turin broke the unbreakale sword. Elves were genrally superior to the common man, but the truly great men such as Turin and Tuor could rise and become even mightier than the elven lords.

[Gil Galad]

il have a llok for that prophisy when i get a chance Davey, but ur making to big of a deal of it, it hasnt happened yet so therefore it cannot be counted among his actions. (plus silmarilion tread)

Hurin was the only one who could stand up to Moroth, you forget Meadhros, who was also captured and withstood the gaze of Morgoth, and Fingolfin faced him and it wasnt teh Elven King that was scared.

now i have to make a point about Fingolfins pride here, he only lead his people , and only those who were willing, over teh grinding ice because he had promised his brother he would follow him, and that shows humility not pride.

as for Feanor not being allone when he recieved his death pang, he was, he had gone ahead of the others in his eagerness to get to morgoth, and it was on teh comin of his sons that the Balrogs fled from around him.

Hurin was great and he, with Hour and the men of his house, kept a large part of morgoths army at bay, and then he himself held his ground for a long time from a great force and cut down many Trolls (i love that part, "our day will come") b4 being grappled (which would account for why he held so long, they wernt tryin to kill him, just the same way as merry and pippin were able to slay and cut the hands of uruk kai) and insulted by Gothmog. but a much larger force(in fact most of Morgoths army) fled from infront of Fingolfin.

as for Hurin being offered Saurons position,he was offered it by teh lord of lies, he was merely trying to break his will.

Elvin magic was used in battle, Luthien used her powers to make wolf sauron drowsey allowing the hound of valinor to beat him, sauron versus Finrod Felagund, magic was used on both sides. i thin magic was infact used in most of the battles, but just too subtle to be noticed(as is its nature) Tour could bet Maeglin, because the elf had been defeated already by morgoth and was broken, Beren defeated Celebrimbor because he had a great fate and not all the elvin or even morgoths magic, or even the beast charcharoth with a silmaril in its belly, or death itself, could stop that.

now to the point, i think Turin was a mere pawn of Morgoths(oh agree with u davey, it was a very devious way that the war of the ring was won) as was his father later, turin was used, and so was his sister, to drive there father to madness so to reveal the hidden vale of Tumladen. nargothrond feel and was utterly sacked because Turin urged teh elves, but they r just as much to blame as he, to disregard the advice of Ulmo. sure it can be said that its great to go down in a blaze of glory but its only the great that know that beter things cn be done, sure Turin wasnt affraid to die, but he was affraid to live, he took the cowards way out when he took his own life.

as for turin being able for Fingolfin, that rediculous, nothing could stand b4 Fingolfin in his rage, even morgoth as loathed to do it, whereas a mere(even tho it was great it was not near the power of his master even at his weakest) creature of fleash and bone seduced and toyed with Turin.

oh i have to disaggree with u FF,
a man/elf etc should never have pride in them selves that is a bad thing, but they may have pride in ther creations and in otheres

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

One of the most tragic characters in the Silmarillion for me;his life was marred by Morgoth's curse from early on!But...do you think the tragedy that befell him might have been avoided?He seems to have amde all the wrong choices; was it because of Morgoth's curse or was it his own free will that drove him to his deeds and in the end...demise? :(

[Lady Galadriel]

Ithil, I think I vaguely remember another thread like this. I am not sure. I search first.

EDIT: Yeah, there is a Turin thread right here on the Sil. Will you merge it with this one or will you continue here?

[Mirkgirl]

mmm Ill merge but Ill be very thankful if you gimme the link and save me the search ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Turin thread (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?t=3916&highlight=turin)

Actually, there seem to be several, but this one is in the Silmarillion section of the forum so I thought this one would be best.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

:blush: I searched but saw no other thread!! :blush: Please, go on and merge it, Mirkgirl!

Thanks, Lady Gal!!:rose: