Elrond and Aragorn- book vs movie

[ImDaMom]

Why do you think Elrond is so Anti-Aragorn in the movie? Is it just that Aragorn will lead his daughter to the mortal life, or is it something more? Why, in the books, is he ok with Arwen marrying Aragorn, as long as he is king of Arnor and Gondor? Let me know YOUR opinion.

[Gwaihir]

I don't like the way Elrond tells Aragorn to let Arwen go. He doesn't look much like an Elf in the first place. In the book Elrond did not object like he did in the movie, probably because he foresaw the future. He knew that Arwen's doom was strong.

[Hobbit]

I think, since PJ wanted to make the lovestory between Aragorn and Arwen more central, that he added the change to make it more "dramatic".
Movie Elrond is a protective father who wants to shield her daughter from the pain of the mortal life from her lover.

[Periantari Andruil]

i actually didn't like how Elrond was portrayed in Two Towers... but I agree with Hobbit that PJ wanted to make the lovestory between Aragorn and Arwen be somewhat more central and also if there's a sense of it being a forbidden relationship, it makes it more dramatic as well... (fits into all those forbidden love stories that sell so well) :mmmm:

[ImDaMom]

Did movie Elrond act more as a natural dad than book Elrond? I know if my daughter was making such a drastic choice, her father would be more movie Elrond.

And Anduril....I think the change in Elrond directly affects the change in the Aragorn character. Movie Aragorn would probably never have used the quote in your signature....

[Periantari Andruil]

hehe...i don't know about him using my quote =) but i think Aragorn wouldn't just be effected by this one thing/issue. even though his love for Arwen is really strong.... he has a lot on his mind, a lot to do, say, and accomplish in order to prove to himself and to the whole Middle Earth that he was going to come back and reclaim the throne which is a huge feat... Elrond does definitely effect him and i think that movie Elrond was appropriate for the situation that PJ put forth in introducing Arwen to be a more prominent character in the movie than in the book...and of course in Arwen being his daughter, he would like to protect her, and prevent her from doing anything hasty... so yes, to your question, i think movie Elrond acted naturally like a caring, loving dad to protect his daughter... (even though i thought he was a bit too harsh especially since he raised Aragorn up like a son as well...IMO)

[Miruvor]

The way Elrond and Aragorn and Arwen acted in the books is consistant with Tolkien's precepts. Half-Elvens had free-will choice to go one way or the other, and no one, out of respect for that free choice, would have tried to disuade them. Also, the two ways were probably seen as equal. Tolkien said that mortality was a 'gift' to man. In that way, it is a positive thing, and only PJ and non-Middle-earth humans would lay the fear of death on the Elves and call this 'protection' of the child. It's not like she didn't already have 3000 years to live a totally fulfilled life already!

I personally think PJ screwed up that whole storyline. But don't get me started.
verymad

[ImDaMom]

Reading the Sil, movie Elrond is acting as Thingol acted with Luthien when she and Beren decided to get together. Perhaps PJ was honoring that part of the story as well as increasing the dramatic story of Elrond and Arwen.

[Lady Ashley]

Ooh, I'd never thought of that! PJ honoring Beren and Luthien's story. (Especially meaningful because of Ary telling about Luthien dying to Frodo! Of course Elrond would know (duh) and know that would happen to his daughter)....But I agree that PJ took a little bit too much freedom with the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Of course, I'm not a parent and wouldn't know how to react if a kid of mine wanted to marry someone not wholey of our species. I'd probably not like that, as Movie Elrond does not.

And Miruvor's right...Elves wouldn't be scared of dying. In fact, they find it a Gift indeed after living so long in the world! Men are the only ones who are afraid to die----both in M.E. AND here! Here, non-M.E., PJ does not seem to understand the concept of Fate/Doom too well when it concerns M.E.

You know, I find it funny that Tolkien did not include Ary and Arwen's story into the main part of the book because it would take away from the tale of the Ringbearer...yet PJ took out a whole lot of the good stuff from the theatrical FOTR so it would be "Frodo-centric" and included Arwen-Aragorn stuff----which took away from the Ringbearer, the totally opposite from what he wanted.

[ImDaMom]

But JRR was not writing for the movie going public, and PJ is, and that, my Lady, is the main difference.

[Lady Ashley]

Exactly. But some movie things just plain don't work for certain works. It makes half the whole thing have to be rearranged, driving further from the story at times.

[Celebrían]

I'd never really thought about this, although I remember thinking when I saw the final trailer for the first time thinking,"I'm kind of surprised that Elrond would talk to Aragorn that way." Although it is not quite true to the book I think it works. It emphasizes the seriousness of the situation. It is not a light thing for an elf to marry a mortal, and if in the movie, Elrond had accepted the situation without questioning it, the audience (those who are not book readers) would think it wasn't that big of a deal, when in fact, it is quite serious. I think the scene works to show those who do not understand the consequences of an elf and a mortal marrying the gravity of the circumstances for all of those involved. Just my opinion, though. :thumbs:

[ImDaMom]

And, of course, a good thought- I never thought of it as helping out non-book readers, but it makes sense. PJ certainly couldn't go into the fact that it had only happened 2 times before, and that it just WASN'T done. I would have liked to see Elrond give his conditional approval (If you become king of Gondor and Arnor, then ok) to give Aragorn the purpose that he has in the books, but then that also would take up too much back story. I guess this is the problem adapting such source material.

[Beleriel]

Well PJ was after more dramtic effect wasn't he?

It is much more dramatic to see the two males butting up against each other although I would say, personally, that in the book Elrond was extremely demanding of Aragorn don't you think?

After all, his condition WAS that Aragorn be King before he could claim Arwen. Quite a challenge for him under the circumstances.

[Celebrían]

Good points, guys. Again, as you said, ImDaMom, when it gets down to it, I think the main reason why this happened was for time and dramatic emphasis. It's just that the emphasis on why Elrond confronted Aragorn the way he did was different.

[ImDaMom]

Belerial...I think you're right. Asking Aragorn to be king of both Gondor and Arnor when such a thing had not happened since the days of Elendil was a bit severe. Maybe that was his way of saying to Arwen "well gee, I GAVE him my blessing, but he just didn't measure up". Sort of a "left handed" endorsement

(and leftys- don't trout me for using that euphemism...I'm a lefty myself)

[Beleriel]

I always thought that Elrond was hoping that Aragorn wouldnt really make it to King.

Although with his far sightedness, he probably knew what was going to happen , didnt he?

[Kenzie]

Originally posted by ImDaMom
Reading the Sil, movie Elrond is acting as Thingol acted with Luthien when she and Beren decided to get together. Perhaps PJ was honoring that part of the story as well as increasing the dramatic story of Elrond and Arwen.

thats a good theory ... and it makes sense!!!

[ImDaMom]

I just can't see Elrond acting so vengeful as to hope Aragorn failed. It's, well, not Elf Like.

[Kenzie]

i can see if he's a little disapointed seeing as how his daughter will die...

[Hobbit]

I don't think Elrond hoped that Aragorn would fail. Not only is ImDaMom right about the elvenpart, it's also part of Elrond's goal; he raised Aragorn to reunite mortal men so they could cast down Sauron and the evil of Mordor and dominate the world peacefully. That way the elves would have fulfilled there mission and they could return to the West.

Originally posted by Miruvor
Tolkien said that mortality was a 'gift' to man. In that way, it is a positive thing, and only PJ and non-Middle-earth humans would lay the fear of death on the Elves and call this 'protection' of the child. It's not like she didn't already have 3000 years to live a totally fulfilled life already!

You're right Miruvor, but imagine your daughter (if you have one that is :) ) would run off with some guy who would only damage her soul in the end, and refusing a chance to be together in eternity with her family on the happiest place there is.
He probably feared the pain Arwen would go through after Aragorn's death, while he knew she could be forever happy at Valinor (at least so he thought)

[ImDaMom]

I have a daughter of the age and if she would move off...I can tell you, her father would act just like Elrond.....to paraphrase Theoden "No father would want to bury his daughter"

[Kenzie]

movie elrond seemed cruel twoards aragorn and maybe PJ was trying to stress elronds sorrow for his daughter choosing an immortal life... but it kinda ruined his character for me

[Beleriel]

I dont see it that way. I think he was just being a concerned father.

[Elril Galia]

Elrond wasnt cruel. He was trying to protect his daughter

Even in the books he wasnt happy that Arwen marry Aragorn. As B says, he said he must become King of Gondor and Rohan.... HOW difficult is that for the ordinray person. He acted like a true father to them both, challenging Aragorn to obtain his full potential, whilst trying to achieve the best for his daughter.

He reluctantly took Arwen to be wed to Aragorn. It says that clearly in the books, that no one know what Elrond and Arwen spoke of, in Gondor, but it was not of happy things...

Elrond saw no choice but to give them his blessing, but he wasnt happy..... and PJ has to get that across to the audience... the reason why he wasnt happy...

PJ has a real difficult job with the movies... he has to explain an awful lot to those who have never read the books... it may be tedious to us, but well.... hes got a difficult job!

[ImDaMom]

Elril....good reasoning.

[Kenzie]

very good point... i just meant that he made movie elrond come on "a bit too strongly" shall i say

[Celebrían]

That is a wonderful point, indeed!

[ImDaMom]

Also, I think we need to remember, that Elrond had been separated from Celebrian for such a long time, and was still heartbroken about that. He may have feared losing Arwen in the same manner, and wasn't ready for it. Do we believe Celebrian was still in the Undying Lands, waiting for Elrond, or had she gone on to whatever end the Elves have in store? And what would that future be? Very existential thoughts. (and way to heavy for this time of day :) )

[Celebrían]

I'm sure he was still heartbroken. To loose his wife was enough, but then to think of his daughter choosing death to be with her love....You can't blame Elrond for being a bit "anit-Aragorn"...

and could you explain what you meant about this:

originally poted by ImDaMom

Do we believe Celebrian was still in the Undying Lands, waiting for Elrond, or had she gone on to whatever end the Elves have in store? And what would that future be? Very existential thoughts. (and way to heavy for this time of day )

[ImDaMom]

We know she went to the Undying Lands to get over her pain and torment at the hands of the orcs. I think my question is how long does one stay in the Undying Lands.....is there a further place to go on to? Does one linger in the Undying Lands forever? Is the Undying Lands a Purgatory, or more like an ultimate destination?

[Celebrían]

So is the Undying Lands the same thing as the Grey Havens or is it the same as Valinor? or is it neither?

edit: or is a completely different place?

[ImDaMom]

The Grey Havens is like the port for ships sailing to the Undying Lands. As for Undying Lands v Valinor, I"m not quite sure. A little help here??

[Celebrían]

Thanks Im. ;)

Yes, where's Lasgalen or Adun? They would know.....

[Lasgalen]

The Undying Lands is the same as Aman. Valinor is the part of Aman where the Valar live.

There is no further place to go beyond the Undying Lands. One would live there pretty much the same way as they lived in ME. The Elves have cities there (ie Tirion). If an Elf should die in Aman, he would go to the Halls of Mandos (which I suppose can be likened to Purgatory).

[Celebrían]

Thanks very much, Las, but what is Aman? :grin:

[Lasgalen]

Aman is the Undying lands :D
Aman is the land across the sea to the west where Valinor is (the place the Valar live in) and also where the Elves that are not in Middle-earth live. Men can not reach it. Only Elves know the way to sail to Aman.

[Celebrían]

Oh right...thanks as always Las. I appreciate it. ;)

Here's another question: can all elves read thoughts? Or is that a special gift, even among elves?

[Lasgalen]

:huh: I don't know. Sounds like a good question for the Elf Thread.

[Celebrían]

*smacks self*....haha I thought I was in the Elf thread :rolleyes:.....sheesh....time for me to go to bed.....

[ImDaMom]

Too many threads, too little time, Cel. Thanks Las for the geography lesson (never one of my strong suits) I did read into the Sil last nite to get the answer, but sleep won.