Tragic Characters

[Lhuntidomion]

Sigh. Tolkien Tolkien. So many tragic characters are in his books. You've got Fëanor, Túrin and all the others! Tell me who you think is the most tragic in the Sil.

[Rumil]

Hmmm ... a tough choice... I think for me it would have to be between the two guys you mention. Feanor is wonderfully flawed and wonderfully gifted (he fits the requirement that the hero of tragedy is inevitably destroyed by a fatal flaw in their character Macbeth=Ambition, Othello=Jealousy, Hamlet=Indecisiveness etc etc). But i would probably go with Turin who is truly doomed. The unwitting incest, killing his best friend, the destruction of Nargothrond and ultimate suicide give him more emotional depth to me than Feanor (who makes pretty cool jewellery but never once gets close to admitting he's done anything wrong ) whereas Turin is at times tortured by guilt (look at his madness and grief following Beleg's death for example). I would gto so far as to say that Turin is Tolkiens most complete character psychologically and most ethically complex. He really is a genuine mix of good and bad, virtues and faults - in fact the most like a 'real' person.

[ImDaMom]

Turin wins (if you could call it winning) hands down. So many Greek tragedies follow the same line....a hero, choosing exile under false pretenses....incest.....Beleg....all those things we dread, happening to one poor soul. Feanor doesn't seem so bad, maybe because his avarice is the cause of so many of his problems. Yes, he was gifted, but with that gift came his own undoing. He's tragic more for what he caused, and the path that he led his sons down.

[Lasgalen]

I vote for Maedhros. He lost so much because of that crazy oath. He had so much potential to be a great leader of the Noldor

[Avian-Morpheus]

Maedhros, Turin, and Eol.

[Lasgalen]

Eol wasn't tragic. He brought his probs upon himself by not letting Aredhel associate with her family.

[Lhuntidomion]

Yeah that's right. But for me it's none of those that you listed. For me it Finwë. And no one can say he brought his probs unto himself. He had to lose one wife in childbirth. And then when he remarries his pescky son makes him feel bad. Then along come Finarfin and Fingolfin (in reverse order I believe) and the troubles begin with the Silmarils. Then strife between his people, of whom he's supposed to be king. And at the head of all the trouble it's his own dang son Fëanor. Must've had many a sleepless night about Fëanor. Say what you will but Finwë's got my vote.

[ImDaMom]

Lhun....I really think I must agree with you. Feanor and Turin brought a lot of their grief on to themselves.....Finwe was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it resulted in major problems for his people. I like your reasoning. :thumbs:

[Lasgalen]

It was very sad that Finwe lost his wife and that his sons couldn't get along better. I still think, in spite of all that Finwe faced, that Maedhros is more tragic. His grandfather was murdered by Morgoth, he had to deal with Feanor as a father, his friendship with Fingon was strained, he had trouble with leading a war against Morgoth because of those rotten brothers of his (Celgorn and Curufin).

[David D]

Tolkien would say that Turin was the most tragic character and I would hold this opinion as well. Turin definately suffered more pain and anguish than anyother living thing from Morgoth. He is an unusually intelligent child, who understands the suffering that his parents are going through. At least all the other characters had happy childhood.

[Lalaith]

Tolkien certainly wrote tragedy rather well! For me, one of the most tragic characters is Hurin himself... Forced to watch the destruction of his family and when he is finally released, he is too feeble, to embittered and too late to do anything. He must not only witness Turin's trail of destruction, but also the enchantment of Niniel (a truly tragic character in her own right). His elder daughter Urwen Lalaith died very young so all of his children met rather unpleasant ends.

I find his helplessness especially poignant when one considers that he was, arguably, the best Mortal warrior that Tolkien wrote - he and Huor held the line to allow the Gondolindrim to retreat safely.

Aurë entuluva! Day will come again!

For others, but not for Hurin or, indeed for anyone caught up in the fate of the Children of Hurin (Beleg, Daeron, Finduilas - and Nargothrond, Brandir, Nim...)

[Zeldastar]

It's hard to select one specific character that is "the most" tragic, so I won't really try, but one character whose story always saddens me is Fingolfin. How defeated and isolated must one feel to charge out in battle against the lord of all evil, as if there was no other option? He held such glory and majesty but was reduced to a frenzied attack that was for the most part, unsuccessful.

[Avian-Morpheus]

Okay, time to come back and explain my reasoning (was in hurry last time I posted).

Turin is tragic, of course, because of all that you've mentioned, and more. His whole story is just one giant tragedy, and for the most part, none of it was his fault.

Maedhros had so much potential, but he had foolishly taken the curse along with his father, and because of that he died. It's hard to blame him; most sons will follow after their father, especially if he was as eloquent and persuasive as Feanor. Meadhros had much good in him, and he tried to make peace; but in the end he failed at everything, because of his vow.

Eol appears to be, on the whole, a bad character; but I do not think he really intended to be. He loved his wife and son, and simply wanted them to be with him. Selfish, yes... but hardly evil. And when they fled from him, without warning or reason, naturally he was angry and pursued them, trying to win them back. Yes, he was wicked... but I can't help feeling a little sorry for him.

I don't consider Fingolfin as tragic as some, because he did good and is generally remembered for being a hero, rather then a failure.

[Zeldastar]

Yeah, but I try to think of what he would feel. He knew he was a hero, and to be so broken down that he ran out like a psychopath must have been a tragedy to him. To see everything that he must have seen and to feel everything in his heart would be tragic, to me.

[Lhuntidomion]

I have to agree with Lalaith. Your opinion is brilliant. Húrin Thalion is trult tragic!

[Gwaihir]

I go for Turin Turambar, master of doom by doom mastered. He was such a good person, but because Morgoth cursed Hurin and his wife and offsprings, most everything he did turned out bad. I feel so sorry for him! It's so sad! mecry The story of the entire house of Hurin was very tragic.

[Lhuntidomion]

Hmmm. That is true! But I still stand by Finwe. Finwe and Hurin.

[Alatar]

Maedhros for sure:'(

[Lalaith]

Hmmmm. I am sticking with Hurin but I do want to comment on Maedhros...he is possibly one of my favourite Elves of The Silmarillion (and I am an unshamed Elf Fangirl!) but, although he was an undeniably tragic figure, a great deal of it was self-inflicted. Of course, I doubt that any of the sons of Feanor could have refused to swear the unbreakable Oath. He endured the burning of the ships at Losgar - could he have done nothing?

He cuts a very noble figure - allowing the High Kingship to pass from the House of Feanor to Fingolfin, even though that could have made him most unpopular with his brothers. His torment on Thangorodrim was certainly tragic, as was the loss of his right hand but....

...I think what makes Maedhros seem less tragic is that he had the support of his brothers, most of the time, and he had a good friend in Fingon. Túrin had a tendency to kill those closest to him (poor ol' Beleg), or to drive them away (Finduilas). He was a much more solitary figure - perhaps adding to the tragedy surrounding him? Hurin also was alone. Stuck watching his children draw closer to their doom, unable to do anything about it...

I love Maedhros dearly, I do... But I still have to go with those pesky humans! ;)

(By the way, thanks for the support, Lhuntidomion! :thumbs: )

[Finrod Felagund]

I'm going to have to go with my name-sake. He is reluctant to leave Valinor b/c of Amarie (several theories on that issue), helps Men and vouches for them, builds a nice home for his peeps, and seems to be an all around good Elf, not haughty and upity like most of Finwe's progeny. In the end he is betrayed by his greedy @##%&*$#@$# punk cousins, his own people leave him to twist and gets shanked redeeming an oath in the bowels of the fortress he built

[Gil Galad]

i wud have to say it wos Turin, the others all either brought a fare bit of the tragedy to them selves or it wos over quickly for them, and well tehy didnt have as much misfortune heaped on them either.

actually i think thingol, shud rate up there, he had such love for his daughter and then she died and he was gutted but she came back and he wos happy again, but she wos made mortal and wud leave teh world wit beren, and never c her daddy again


yeh i think finrod wos prety tragic, but he chose his fate, he knew that he'd prob not survive helping beren, but he doen it, Turin cudnt get a lucky break no matter how hard he tried

[Finrod Felagund]

Gil, you have got to spell better, you have some good insights but reading your posts is physically painful
Thanks

[Finrod Felagund]

P.S.
I have two things:
1. Could someone please define "tragic"
and
2. I have no sympathy for Turin, only for those who were unfortunate to meet him

[ImDaMom]

In this thread, I would interperet "tragic" as someone, or something, who had the capacity for good, or who tried to live up to positive expectations, only to have reality, circumstances, poor judgement, and just a bit of really really bad luck interfere, leading to very negative results. (i.e. Hurin)
I heartily agree about Turin (and about spelling in general) ;)

[Lasgalen]

Some of Turins probs were bad luck (or the curse) but mostly he brought his troubles upon himself by having too much pride and refusing to listen to those around him. Hurin is much more tragic. Unlike Turin, he could do nothing. I originally went with Maedhros who had great potential except for that stupid oath thing (and a couple of expletive brothers) getting in his way, but now I am starting to lean towards Hurin as the most tragic.

[Periantari Andruil]

When i first looked at this thread, i thought immediately Turin... after reading through the thread "Turin Turumbar" and thinking about it, i definitely think that Turin could've had a better life had it not been for the curse that Morgoth put upon him and his family... Although he did do some things that had bad consequences, the bad luck that he brought to other people he met and to himself were unfortunate occurrences and should not have happened had he not been cursed....
so definitely, I think Turin is one of the most tragic characters in the Sil....
(althought i think many of the characters were tragic.... i'll post a better opinion when I finish the Akallabeth and the Forging of the Rings... sorry slow reader...so still haven't finished yet :blush: )

[Gil Galad]

well i am thinking that it was Hurin(il probably have another idea tomorrow) he was brave, noble, humble, and he done great things, but he was in the end turned to evil (or rather his deeds were) by the deeds of morgoth, sure you could say that he should have known that morgoth was a lier and he shouldnt believe what morgoth lets him see, but to that you have to remember that he was a mere mortal man, albeit a mighty one, and he was tortured for 27years(?i think) so his screams in desperation in the area where Gondolin was can be forgiven, as with his ignoroance to Thingol the Mighty king of Doriath who only done him good.

sorry about the spelling thing Finrod, i just get carried away some times

oh and tragic:


From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

1. Of or pertaining to tragedy; of the nature or character of
tragedy; as, a tragic poem; a tragic play or
representation.

2. Fatal to life; mournful; terrible; calamitous; as, the
tragic scenes of the French revolution.

3. Mournful; expressive of tragedy, the loss of life, or of
sorrow.

[Lhuntidomion]

I disagree with everyone who thinks Turin's misfortune wasn't his fault. A lot of things (most of them in fact) he brought upon himself. His pride, coupled with the curse brought his downfall. Think of all the poor people around him. Beleg, Gwindor, ect.

[Lasgalen]

I think Turin brought most of his misfortune on himself, too. That is why I started the Turin Turambar thread.

[Periantari Andruil]

But even if he did bring most of what happened to him upon himself, by those occurrences merely happening to him and the way he found out that he 1) killed his friend 2) led Nargothond to its demise 3) married his own sister makes him a tragic character despite how it happened... (by his own self-infliction)
Tragedy is his life... nothing good came out of his life and that is why he took his own life in the end...:mmmm:

[Lasgalen]

Turin's friends tried to help him have a better life, but he stubbornly refused. I think Hurin is more tragic because there was nothing he could do about his situation.

[Finrod Felagund]

Yeah! Turin's a punk!

[Gil Galad]

now im not sayin that he wasnt unfortunate,
but he did bring other stuf onto himself, and he did do bad things aswell

[Élion]

Do Valar count? I'm now rereading the Silmarillion and I think you a forgetting a very tragic character: Vairë the Weaver, spouse to Manó.

Imagine, she has a husband who supposedly knows everything and never forgets anything! How much worse can it get? Her husband always hangs around in the Halls of the Death (now that will make him a cheery fellow), coming late for diner, while she has to do all the housekeeping, weaving carpets and such... Very, very tragic... ;)

[ImDaMom]

Hi Elion. Welcome. I like the way you think :thumbs:

[Lasgalen]

Greetings Elion. If you wish, you may introduce yourself in the Welcome Forum.

[Lhuntidomion]

yeah the Valar count too. great opinion Ilion

[Gwaihir]

lol Interesting, Elion. I've never thought that Valar were tragic characters... they made Arda. But well, weaving for years is a dull occupation for a Vala.

[Lasgalen]

What about Nienna. Her job is crying and lamenting. That sounds tragic (or at least sad) to me.

[Hobbit]

I see Maglor as a very tragic character, becouse he was a good man (or elf) just like Maedhros, yet the oath kept coming in his way, making him do evil things and making whole Beleriand hate him. Also he loses most of his relatives becouse of it and eventhough he was tired of fighting and wanted to quiet there was no escaping the oath for then the everlasting darkness will be called upon him. And when he finally obtaines a Silmarril after all the needless killing it burns his hand and the only one who shared his fate then killed himself, leaving him in unbareble pain from both the Silmarril and his mind.
And then he is forced to sing sad songs and forced to feel bad and sick of himself and is crimes untill the end of days: characters who die in pain are tragic, but character who need to live forever in pain arr even more tragic in my opinion.

[Ereinion]

I believe that the most tragic characters are Hurin's family: his wife,his second daughter and especially Turin his son.Poor guy,he tried to escape his destiny,but it caught up with him eventually....His story remindes me alot of a Greek Mythology character,Ediphus,who was cursed and ended up killing his father and marrying his mother.

[Gil Galad]

i think that Hurin was the most tragic of his family, he had to watch all the evil that visited and was done by his family

[Ereinion]

He did suffer alot...Anyway,the whole book is full of tragedies,from the beginning to the end...And when I read about the destruction of Numenor,the way it sunked under the sea,and Elendil surviving with his family,I couldn't help thinking about Noah and his arc...All mythologies have the same base,don't they?

[Lasgalen]

Hobbit. I had forgotten about Maglor. You are right. He is very tragic. He was weary of the oath and wanted to return to Valinor, but his brother talked him out of it. Poor guy. Just like Maedhros, Maglor could have been a great Elf of the first age if not for that stupid oath.

[Gil Galad]

Las, how can u say that it was poor Maedhros, it was him that talked Maglor out of returning to Valinor and then the two of them went of for another spat of kinslaying

[Lasgalen]

I say poor Maedhros because I don't believe he was inherently evil. It was the oath that drove him to do those things and without the oath, he could have been a great leader.

[Gil Galad]

but he took the oath willing and so it was by his own choice that he fell under its curse, and even tho he had sworn the oath he did not have to go about slaying his kin

[Lasgalen]

He felt he had no choice because it would mean the Everlasting Darkness if he failed to fulfill his oath. He admits it was folly, but felt trapped.

[Gil Galad]

oh after he took the Oath he had top either fullfil it to teh bitter end or go to Manwe and beg pardon. but when his father was speaking fell words against the Vala who done nothing but good for them and when the oath was being sworn, he could had some sense and stopped and thought for a minute, and as for the Kinslayings there had to have been other ways to get to the Silmarils then that

[Friend of Maglor]

Ah, the joy of hearing my favorite character (not FRIEND Maglor, chill) discussed. Without a doubt, the suferings of Maglor and Maedhros award them as the most tragic characters.

[Friend of Maglor]

And personally, I beleive that it was remorse over forcing Maglor to kill that one last time is what drove him mad.

[Lasgalen]

Just an FYI for you FriendofMaglor. Instead of double posting, you can edit your post (if within 15 minutes) by using the 'edit' button in the lower right-hand corner.

I, too, feel that remorse drove him mad. He followed the oath because he felt he had too, but he did not like it.

[Friend of Maglor]

Very true (thanks for the tip!!)