Thoughts and questions...

[Periantari Andruil]

I'm enjoying the Sil right now and am up to Beren and Luthien's story which i'm hopefully going to start tomorrow...
but i have some questions...

When Fingolfin went up against Morgoth..why didn't any of his brothers or kinsmen go with him to Thangorodrim to help him?I found it so sad that Fingolfin died alone ...mecry
and also, there was a long period of peace between the second and third battles of Beleriand, so why didn't Feanor's sons or any of the Noldor plan a great strategy in order to overthrow Morgoth? It seemed like they were waiting for disaster to happen....

the chapter "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin" is so tragic... the coming of Men to aid the Elves was a good thing, but i found Morgoth's forces to be so overbearing...i can't wait to read about the fifth battle...

I also found the chapter of Maeglin to be disturbing as well.. i do not understand why Maeglin would forsake his father in that way and allow Turgon to drop him off a cliff... that is so tragic... in the end of the chapter, i remember Tolkien writing that "a dark seed of evil was sown" in the form of Maeglin being a Dark Elf... i just feel like he showed no remorse nor affection towards his father, Eol and i found that really disturbing... i mean it's right that Eol feels that the Noldor not so deserving of the lands of Beleriand due to their kin-slaying so in part, Eol's accusations are not false...

yep..those are my thoughts for now.. can't wait to go to the story of Beren and Luthien =)

please share your thoughts as well =)

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Andruil
also, there was a long period of peace between the second and third battles of Beleriand, so why didn't Feanor's sons or any of the Noldor plan a great strategy in order to overthrow Morgoth? It seemed like they were waiting for disaster to happen....
All I will say about this is... wait for the Fifth Battle (my personal favorite). I don't want to say anymore as it would give stuff away.

As for Maeglin. I think he fell instantly in love with Idril as soon as he laid eyes on her. Perhaps he thought if he stood up for his father, then it might distance him from Idril. Besides, his father just tried to kill him.

[Mirkgirl]

Well Eol just tried to kill him, well maybe with good reason (as he saw it), but it resulted Aredhel's death... so we have your father from whom you and your mother have just escaped, coming, trying to kill you and eventually causing your mother's death... I can see why Maeglin didn't stop Turgon... I would understand if he killed him himself too.

But if you want my advice Maeglin was the most selfish creature ever...just look at his words: 'Lady, let us depart while there is time? What hope is there in this wood for you or for me? Here we are held in bondage, and no profit shall I find here; for I have learned all that my father has to teach, or that the Naugrim will reveal to me. Shall we not seek for Gondolin? You shall be my guide, and I will be your guard!' For hope he speaks, but what he really wants is power, which Gondolin represents in his dreams. Listening to his mother's tales he used to imagine how great he can be in the hidden city, while his father, who he thinks for inferior already wants him to stay and instead of a great elf to turn into another bend, dwarvish like elf like his father.

As to Fingolfin, he left without saying what he's up to... thinking it's all hopeless... if he said that maybe some would come with him. But the rest didn't think that there's anything that hopeless and nothing sure but the death that is waiting the ones who head towards Thangorodrim. Also there was no way to help - he challanged Morgoth, so he has to stand alone. There was no hope to gather a big enough amy to face all the armies of Morgoth even if they had time. There was no need to sacrifise more elves, which would be a lot more useful in the future battles.

[Gwaihir]

Well the reason why Fingolfin went forth alone was because his madness of anger was so great that none dared come close to him (his foes at least). I think he didn't tell anyone that he was going to go before Morgoth, or they would have gone with him. That part is very sad, isn't it? Stlil, I love Fingolfin because he was very valiant and brave.

As for Maeglin, I agree with MIrky. The Silm itself says that Maeglin loved his mother more than Eol. Think of being forced to live in darkness all through your childhood. Anyone would like to get away from it. Later, Eol even tried to kill him and killed his mother instead. Wouldn't he rather stay and be with Idril who he loved than to protect a weird father?

[Periantari Andruil]

yeah that is true..i overlooked the part where Eol wanted to kill Maeglin, but struck out at Aredhel instead...
i agree that Maeglin is very selfish...you supplied a good quote and that is a good point, Mirkgirl :thumbs:
the story about Maeglin is really tragic though.. he, himself lived to be an elf of high standing in Gondolin but i do not think he deserved at all...
also, did Aredhel want to marry Eol? or was she forced into that marriage? I do not think SIl was really clear about that... if she was forced into marry Eol, i would understand that she had no love for him and would have wanted to depart from him in secret...

nice input everyone, thanks :)

[Mirkgirl]

I was wondering that too... actually I think she was thrilled to live with the dark elf after thinking Gondolin as a golden cage... but after some years the enthusiasm stepped away and as it usually happens she understood that marring Eol was not just a great adventure... I think she wanted it for some time... not to forget that Eol had some magical powers...
Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood.I think she thought she agreed... if it makes any sense lol
I also wonder how she was kept in Eol's home... I think she did love him at some rate... otherwise it makes no sense the lady who was earlier described as a though girl who hunts with the other Noldor princes to stay and obey Eol just because she's afraid to go From "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië"
their sister was Aredhel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong, and loved much to ride and hunt in the forests. Maybe she didn't want to leave her child behind and so on, but it doesn't make much sense anyway

[Lasgalen]

Maybe she had a sense of obligationa and duty to her husband (remember, it was a different time with different customs than we have now)

[Tirithel]

Read it again about a week from now, Andy. It will make so much more sense to you, as most of Tolkien's work is scarce understood the first time through it.

[Periantari Andruil]

oh wow..i just read the chapter Beren and Luthien and it is one of my favorite chapters so far... i was so engrossed in it that i didn't even let it go when i went down to the gym lol
that chapter is so moving and it has adventure and romance too... so touching what Luthien did for Beren mecry
no wonder they mention them in LOTR... that was a GREAT story... they're both so brave...and Luthien sacrificed so much for the one she loved..... so moving mecry
wow...Sil is really really good ... I can't wait till they tell the story of how the Great Rings were forged and the end of the First Age... (which had so many tragic events imo)
i'm on the Fall of Doriath now... so i'll post more on this board when i finish :thumbs:
so i'm gonna go :read: now =)

thanks for the replies everyone :)

[Periantari Andruil]

I finished the Sil last night! :grin:
i really enjoyed it...and now i'm ready to post all over this forum! lol (when the week is over..of course :rolleyes: darn physics test on Friday) pfbbt

[Lasgalen]

Have you read UT yet? We just started a discussion on the first tale. You still have time to join us at Tolkiens Other Works forum.

[Gil Galad]

i aggree with Mirky and Gwahlir, oh and wot Las said abotu the 5th battle,
glad your enjoying it, i absolutly love it

[Periantari Andruil]

Originally posted by Lasgalen
Have you read UT yet? We just started a discussion on the first tale. You still have time to join us at Tolkiens Other Works forum.

I'm starting UT now, Las...i'll see if i can join the discussion once i finish the first tale....it should be good..it's about Turin! hehe...
yeah Silmarillion was better than expected...although at times, i got frustrated with the number of names and places, the glossary helped a lot...

but i have some questions:
Do the Lost Tales address what happens to Maglor? It says in the Silmarillion that "he coudl not endure the pain with wihch the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea and thereafter he wandere dever upon the shores, singing in pain and regreat beside the waves." (Chapter 24: Of the Voyage of Earendil)
But did he die? What became of him?

I would also like to know whether or not Feanor's seven sons had any desecendents... were they all bachelors? =)

[Lasgalen]

No one really knows what happened to Maglor. It is said he wandered along the seashore singing a lament.

The only grandson of Feanor that I know of is Celebrimbor. I don't have my book with me (I'm at work) but I think he was Curufin's son. One of the HoME's might have more info. Probably vol 12.

[Tirithel]

Yeah I've wondered about that too. The only one that I could think of was, as Las said, Celebrimbor son of Curufin. Which is understandable...I mean, what kind of she-elf would wanna marry into all the junk that family had started? OY! lol

[Lalaith]

Ah, I wish I had the entire HoME series to hand, but unfortunately I don't!! There are some writings which suggest that more of Fëanor's sons had wives... I think Maglor is one of them!

All that is said of Maglor, however, is that he wandered along the seashores, and never came among the people of the Elves again (Probably not the most accurate of quotes, but it gets the point across)...

And both Tirithel and Lasgalen are quite right - Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin. That family appears to have a habit of making dangerous trinkets - first the Silmarils and then the Rings of Power! However, Celebrimbor basically disowned his family - when his father and uncle (possibly Celegorm?) were driven from Nargothrond, he remained...

So, any descendents of the sons of Fëanor did not actually come under the Oath...

[Hobbit]

I read somewhere that Caranthir was married too, but I'm not sure of this.
The only descendent of the sons of Feanor I know is Celebrimbor, but he is already mentioned, I see
Curufin must have had a wife as mother of Celebrimbor, yet he later abbandoned them for Luthien... so Curufin was one of the few Middle Earth characters that cheated on his wife lol

[Tirithel]

That DOG! Homewrecker! lol Kinda raises an interesting question...was Curufin married while all that Luthien business was going on? If he was, I wonder what his wife thought.

[Lasgalen]

Not Curufin. Celegorm is the one that wanted to marry Luthien. Curufin did not abandon Celebrimbor, rather Celebrimor disowned his family to stay in Nargothrond.

[Finrod Felagund]

Yeah, what Las and Laliath said!
I do believe that there were more Feanorian wives but I can't quite recall who. I also believe the wives all stayed in Valinor when their husbands decided to follow their daddy and lead their people into treachery, misery, slavery, and death.

Also, do you think Thingol would have caved(no pun intended) and let Luthien marry Celegorm, or would he have invaded?

[Hobbit]

Since Thingol hated the sons of Feanor, he would probably have done anything to keep Celegorm away from his daughter, even if he would have to invade Nargothrond to do so...
that would be an interesting battle since Celegorm seemed to be very popular in Nargothrond before the death of Finrod, (sorry FF) so the people of Nargothrond would have followed him.
But yes: I think Thingol would even attack his own kin to keep Luthien out of the hands of Celegorm.

[Finrod Felagund]

I wonder though if the folk of Nar. would have followed the Sons after they found out that they (the Sons)were keeping Luthien against her will and that they (the Sons) knew about Finrod's capture.

[Lasgalen]

I think the people of Nargothrond would not follow Celegorm once they found out he was holding Luthien against her will. They saw through him eventually anyway (and threw him out) so I do not believe they would follow him in battle against Thingol.

[Hobbit]

They didn't object at first when Celegorm captured her and held her against her will. If I remember correctly, they threw the sons out after the fall of Minas Tirith for they thought Celegorm and Curufin had left Finrod to Saurons cruelty while they had the strenght to save him. (I wonder if they could have pulled that off though) And after Luthien and Huan defeated the evil in Minas Tirith and showed that Sauron was not invincable, the people of Nar were so mad at the sons for lying to them and for not helping Finrod that they chased them away. (although Tolkien said they still had some followers in Nargothrond but they were afraid that the sons were cursed and dared not to follow them)
I think the people of Nar might have followed the sons if Thingol would have invaded, becouse they still followed the sons before Finrod's death and becouse the hot-tempered Noldor would never allow someone else to attack their realm without a fight. Although I also think it depends on how much they knew about the situation of Finrod, the strenght of Sauron and Luthiens heritage.

[Lasgalen]

That is possible. Celegorm and Curufin were good speakers (like their father) and could have swayed the people of Nargothrond. I think, however, kidnapping of a princess would have been a bit much for most of the people of Nargothrond and they would have demanded her release to avoid war.

[Finrod Felagund]

Especially after they found out that the Sons left Finrod, their former king who they deserted. I think those that were not of the Son's people would have eventually handed them over. Seems like I remember Finrod swearing allegiance to Thingol. There fore he was a vassal of Thingol therfore they owed Thingol allegiance. If they deserted Finrod, who was actually a good guy , why wouldn't they desert the Feanorians?

[Lalaith]

But did they actually desert Finrod? Wouldn't he have left on the quest with Beren by the time this whole thing came up?

When Finrod departed Nargothrond, he left Orodreth in charge- which didn't please many people, mainly those influenced by the sons of Fëanor...

They rebelled against Orodreth, who they didn't really accept as liege in the first place...

[Finrod Felagund]

by them deserting, I mean that he could only get a few volunteers to go with him, the rest of the folk of Nar. were cowed by the threats of the Feanorians

[Lasgalen]

I know what you are talking about Finrod.
Quote: "Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. Yet if there be any on whom the shadow of our curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a beggar that is thrust from the gates."
Only 10 stood by him. Not a very large number.

[Hobbit]

I agree. The people of Nar weren't even grateful for their leader who protected and leaded them and who gave them so much.
Even some time before Finrod departed with Beren, the people of Nar already supported Celegorm and Curufin more then Finarfins sons. If only ten of them were willing to help Finrod then even most people of his own household must have supported the sons of Feanor.
So I guess Celegorm and Curufin had enough power and support to "justify" the abduction of an elvenprinsess and a war upon Thingol.

[Tirithel]

Yeah, but they were still jerks!

(This conversation is way too intelligent for me and that's my only input. Sorry! lol)

[Lasgalen]

lol Tirithel.
Short, but to the point. And I whole heartedly agree. Their behaviour at Nargothrond screwed up Maedhros' plans for a union of the Noldor to fight Melkor.

[Finrod Felagund]

I wonder if Orodreth and Thingol had swallowed their pride if the Fifth Battle would have turned out differently?

[legolastheawesome]

i have to get this in:

The Sons of Feanor were HORRIBLE

the biggest jerk elves of all time.

[Lasgalen]

Maglor was a nice guy (Elf) and Maedhros was pretty decent too when he didn't feel constrained by the oath. Celegorm and Curufin were indeed jerks.

[Gil Galad]

look all the sons of feanor took part in the kinslayings, they were all jerks (for want of a far stronger word)


Finrod, i dont think that anything in ME could have changed the outcome of teh 5th batle

[Finrod Felagund]

Yep all jerks, just varying degrees of jerkiness. Some were like a friend who has an addiction and is trying to get better but keeps going back to the pipe. But others had no chance of redemption

I'm not so sure, it said that Morgoth's plans almost went awry twice, the first when Fingon's charge came faster than he thought and when the Easterlings turned, that was the pivital moment in the battle. More Elves could have turned the tide against the Easterling treachery.
Might be cool to play in MerlintheMad's war gaming...

[Lasgalen]

The outcome of 5th battle could have been different. It says in Sil: Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. If the Elves of Nargothrond and Doriath were there, they may have been able to counter the treachery of the Men.

[Hobbit]

I agree. The victory of Morgoth was becouse the evil men suddenly turned against Maedhros host. Caught off guard, Meadhros front was divided and could't keep the pressure on Morgoths main host, who could now concentrate full power on Fingon's host.
I believe that with help from Nargothrond and Doriath the elves would have countered the evil men (like Lasgalen said) and won the battle.
But then there would still be a problem of how to deal with Morgoth himself. The coward would probably run away and even if he was caught it would still be hard to get rid of him.
He would remain dangerous.
hmmm, an interesting subject for a fanfic...
Anyway the Noldor could have won that battle with some additonal aid, or so I believe.

[David D]

I think no matter what happened the Noldor were doomed to loose against Morgoth. If more elves had come then another betrayal or tradgedy would have occured to rob them of the victory. From the start events such as Feanor adandoning Fingolfin, Gwindor's rash charge and Maeglns betrayal had always guaranteed that the Noldor could not be victorious. I believe it was fate that no matter how noble or brave the Noldor were they would fail and there cities be destroyed.

[Gil Galad]

I aggree with Davey D, even if there had have been more Elves at teh battle they could not have foreseen, and therefore prepared for the treachery of the Easterlings, more eleves ther wud have merely increased teh confusion.

but its immaterial, the sons of feanor had already done deeds which ment that none there could be no help from Menegroth or Nargothrond

[Finrod Felagund]

There would have been a 6th battle if the 5th had been won and the War of Wrath would have been delayed, but you are right, without Valarian help, the Noldor could only delay Morgoth not entirely defeat him

[Ereinion]

I have a question: did Gil-galad have a Quenya name?

[Finrod Felagund]

I don't believe he did. Since he was born in ME I don't think he was given a Quenya name

[Ereinion]

I see...It's shame though...Quenya name are so beautiful....