Orcs Mortality

[Gil Galad]

is there anything to suggest that orcs are, like the elves they were bred from, imortal. or is there anything that contradicts this

[Lalaith]

Not that I am aware of ( although others may know more). It has been discussed, to some degree here (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2556) - hope that helps...


For my own part, I don' t think they are immortal, although I'm not sure what I'm basing that on. :huh: :p :huh:

[Tirithel]

It's been my impression that they generally tend to die in droves anyway, so I stopped wondering about immortality a long time ago. I mean, they live such short pointless lives anyway. Can you imagine living an eternity full or hate and malice with no capacity for love in your blackened heart? I don't think they'd be immortal at all, as their own internal torment would consume them like a wildfire. Since elves can be slain or die of grief, it seems that orcs would essentially kill themselves if nobody else did.

[Gil Galad]

i was just looking through the hobbit (when they r in the goblin caves and bilbo finds the ring) and thught how do they remember those swords, thejn i dawned on me, "that maybe they were there,after all they r just corupted elves after all"

and i just wanted to here wot others said on the subject

i liek ur thinkin Tiri, it makes allot of sense

[Tirithel]

Yes, well, that's what a night of tequila and good reading tend to produce: lots of "good sense." ;) lol

[Gwaihir]

They can't be immortal can they, because I don't think there's a place for them in the Hall of Mandos. Even though they were once Elves, Morgoth has corrupted them so much that they are unlike Elves in about every aspect.

[Tirithel]

Maybe they don't really have like, "spirits" per se, and when they die they just kinda go away. :huh: I still don't think that they could live forever. *See above entry If they were anything like elves, at all, they could die by being slain or submission to grief...souls full of hate...burning up in anger...essentially killing themselves...yada yada yada...;) lol

[Gil Galad]

well they must have spirts cos they serve morgoth out of fear and cos he has tortured them. etc. but the Vala, especially morgoth, have no power to change teh doom of elves or men, so therefore they must still have the doom of elves.
yeh Tiri, tequela is great for inspiration

[Tirithel]

Perhaps in dying their souls, like, revert, or something. Possibly like dying for their wrong-doings(*cough, sins?)? Maybe there is a spot for them in the halls of Mandos. Hey Iluvatar didn't reveal everything, so it's possible.

[Gil Galad]

yeh i recon they kill themselves with the grief and then they go to mandos, and prob spend allong time there cos of all the torturedness of there souls and stuf.

[Elbereth]

IMHO orcs would travel to Mandos but perhaps they wouldn't be reborn. If you think that part of their spirit/soul/whatever is elven in origin and part is the creation of evil then the elven part could travel to Mandos but they could not be reborn as they would not have a 'complete' soul

Just my peculiar logic at work

[Tirithel]

That's cool, E. That's what these forums are all about. Peculiar logic and such. :thumbs: You should hear some of my theories concerning yawning and popping eardrums. WHOOFDA absolutely brilliant, lemme tell ya! lol

[Anduril Shines Again]

I suppose they are immortal...In TTT, Shagrat and Gorbag refer to the 'Great Battle', as if they took part in it, although it was thousands of years before...

[Elbereth]

A little like the 'immortals' of Tamora Pierce's Tortall, live forever unless someone takes the trouble to kill them

[Eomund]

hey, if they dont reborn, then how many are there in Mandos... like billions or so... *shivers*

[Arátoeldar]

In The Silmarillion Tolkien aludes to a final battle like the viking's Ragnarok. My personal belief is that when an orcs dies their soul goes to the Void to be with Melkor.

[Manveri Silverleaf]

I personally don't see why an orc would go to be with Melkor. They didn't turn around and willingly follow the Dark Lord; they were tortured and mutilated, and Tolkien said that they were created as a mockery of the elves. Plus I don't think either Sauron nor Melkor, powerful as they may be, would be unable to take away the immortality of an elf. I think an orc, once it dies, would probably go to the Halls of Mandos, not be punished for being captured, tortured and mutilated against their will. It is big enough after all.

[Gwaihir]

I doubt that the Orcs had that much in common with the Elves... After so much cruel torture and captivity, those Orcs, who were once Elves, were nothing like what they had once been. They are evil to the core, and there is no good left in them. I don't see Orcs as "poor Elves who have been mutilated"... they are what they are, and they are evil.

I don't know where they go after death, but to the Witchking, Gandalf said: "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master." I wonder if that place is for Orcs as well?

[Gwaihir]

I was reading the early version of the tale of Beren and Luthien in Lost Tales II, and it said this about Carcharoth:

Then Beren thrust swiftly upward with a spear into his (Carcharoth's) throat, and Huan leapt again and had him by a hind leg, and Karkaras fell as a stone, for at that same moment the king's spear found his heart, and his evil spirit gushed forth and sped howling faintly as it fared over the dark hills to Mandos.

I don't know if Tolkien didn't change facts later, but IF the evil spirits of werewolves trutly go to the Halls of Mandos, then is it possible for Orcs' spirits to go there also?

[Finrod Felagund]

That must be taken with a grain of salt. That is from the early developement of the legends and besides, the werewolves were twisted spirits put into fell bodies, whether they were maiar or something else is up for discussion. Comparing the fate of Carcharoth with Orcs is not comparing apples to apples.
Somewhere I read that the Orcs lost their immortallity due to the taint of Morgoth (not sure if this was an opinion or something from the Letters, so...). But as far as I know, and I can and might be wrong, the Prof never makes any reference to the fate of Orcs after they die. IMHO, having them just end would be a release and a kindness.

FF

[Gwaihir]

Hehe I know! :p Twas just an attempt to revive a near-dead thread. It still is my opinion that the Orcs do NOT go to Mandos, though. And yes FF, perhaps it is best for them just to end and have nothing left of them after death.

[Walsingham]

As if Orcs had a soul then they went somewhere, but if they hadn't, then they had nothing which could go somewhere.