Thingol: a great king?

[Hobbit]

One of the most important characters in the Sil is without a doubt, Thingol king of Doriath. And it's quite an extrordinairy elf: King of the Teleri and of the gret elfrealm of Doriath, later keeper of a Silmaril and father of Lúthien and fosterfather of Túrin. Not to mention that he was loved by Melian, one of the great Maia spirits.
Still I find it hard to give him the respect he diserves. He has allot to be proud of but his pride goes beyond this limit in my opinion. He's selfish and arogant and he continues to give up what is best for Beleriand for his own personal good.
He ignores his wife's good advice (who is far beyond him for crying out loud) and screws up alot for the other elves in Beleriand. He refused to help the other elves achieve victory against the dark foe becouse of the kinslying which was already forgiven by almost everybody (even the Teleri already forgave the Noldor for the first kinslaying) but becouse of his pride he refused to help overthrow Morgoth in the fifth battle and he also refused to give up the Silmaril who could have brought victory to Maedhros and could have spared his realm from destruction.
In other words: I dislike the character. I would like to hear your oppinions Thingol and your view if him.

[Gwaihir]

To say the truth, I don't really like Thingol, either. I liked him at first, when he met Melian, wedded her, and ruled Doriath. He was the tallest of his kind, and the fact that he married a Maia surprised me.

However, it is soon revealed that Thingol is very proud and obstinate. He doesn't like the Noldor who came as exiles (especially the sons of Feanor, though I can't blame him). I liked him even less when he declared that no man should come into Doriath as long as he reigned. I can't believe he was stupid enough not to listen to Melian, who is much more powerful than him! When Thingol showed his hostility against Beren and imprisoned Luthien, that made me reaaally dislike him! :angry: How dare he confines his own beloved daughter!

It was Thingol who brought doom to Doriath, entwining them in the curse of Mandos. When he was killed by the Dwarves, I wasn't really sad about it. I felt more sorry for Melian who left in sorrow. Because of that the Girdle of Melian was broken and evil things came into Doriath. If Thingol had made better choices and hearkened to Melian, the history of the First Age might have been a little brighter.

[Lalaith]

In truth, I rather like Thingol...

Firstly for that wonderful description of him wandering off into the woods, being dumbstruck for years and returning with silver hair and a Maia - beautiful stuff! lol Seriously, the love between himself and Melian is a lovely tale.

Thingol was the forefather of so many wonderful characters, from Lúthien right down to Elrond and his children - historically, he is an incredibly important Middle earth character...

As for his deeds... well, he was misguided... He foolishly ensnared himself in the doom of the Silmarils. Apparently, it was an act of love for his daughter - he would give her up for no lesser price than one of Feanor's Silmarils...

But even Maedhros, the eldest of Feanor's sons understood Thingol's motives for the way he acted:

The Silmarillion
A king is he that can hold his own, or else his title is in vein.

In other words, Thingol was a king, and proud of his realm... He did what he could to ensure the safety of his people....

And then that Mortal showed up.... lol

Misguided, yes... but not a bad king for all that...

[Finrod Felagund]

I would also throw in another reason for his lack of help in the wars against Morgoth, he knew that without Western Vala help, Morgoth was undefeatable. I think there is a reference somewhere that Melian says something to that effect, I could be wrong.

And like the rest of the Elf Lords, he was notorious for ignoring good advice. Turgon, Orodreth, Finwe, Feanor, Celebrimbor, etc

You can't fault him for being overprotective of Luthien, I know I sure would. Let my daughter go trapesing off with some ruffian, I think not. Not to mention that she was the most beautiful creature to ever grace the face of ME. I would hope one of Finarfin's children would catch her eye, Finrod seemed to be a nice enough guy, Orodreth was too much of a frowner...
Yeah, I know a bit snobbish but what father wants his daughter to marry less than a Prince.

[Mirkgirl]

I think even though he didn't know about the choice Luthien would take, he had some ideas what marrying a mortal means... maybe he imagined him dying and she never finding happiness again... kind of what Elrond said to Arwen in the movie (which was stupid as we know that they all know she's going to Luthien's choice)...

I don't think it was that much of pride, but this... she's immortal and he's not... and I have to say I understand him... I like the quote Lalaith gave, he was the first great elvish ME king, the one who stayed and made ME what it was when the Noldor came back.

[Hobbit]

I think that Beren diserved more to be the husband of Luthien then any elflord or prince, even more then Finrod.
And it's not that Thingol would never see Luthien again. They would still remain in Doriath under the protection of the girdle of Melian. Finrod, I understand your comment about not letting your daughter run off with some punk, but Beren was as close to an elflord as a mortal could get. And I think it's just mean to try and stop your daughters marriage with the guy she loves and who loves her too, just becouse you don't like he's a mortal man.
Sure he would die and she will be unhappy, but if you lock up your daughter and cause the possible death of the person your daughter loves above all, then she will not only be very sad, she will also hate you very much.

And after he obtained the Silmarril, he had the victory of the elves and the doom of Morgoth in his hands: if he would have appeared on the fifth battle, with his army and a Silmarril, then it is doubtfull evil would have won. All he had to do was set aside his pride and help the Noldor take down Morgoth, yet his pride and honor didn't allow that. He let his own kin to die on the battlefield for his freedom and the safety of his realm. If he was too proud and "too good" to battle, at least he could have send an army with Beleg and Mablung to help the elves.

[Finrod Felagund]

I'm afraid the Feanorians would have attacked to get the Silmaril
Maybe with the help of both Nargothrond and Doriath, things may have turned out different...
From Thingol's point of view, No Elf was good enough, much less a Man

[Hobbit]

Surely Maedhros wouldn't allow any attack on Thingol's host before he had the chance to speak to Thingol and try to persuede him peacefully. Everytime the Feanorians attacked it was a last resort.
Besides the Feanorians hated Morgoth so much that they would probably overthrow him first to obtain the other 2 Silmarrils first and then they would worry for the third...
And of course, parents have high demands of their future son in law, but I think that one day children grow up and then they have to make choises themselves and especially from the elves you could expect that the children can take decicions themselves...
It's another example of his neverending pride to think nobody (not even Beren) is worthy to marry his daughter even if Luthien herself had felt eternal love for Beren

[Gil Galad]

Thingol didnt send his army to there death in teh fifth battle because he was wise and he knew that it was futile, and that morgoth could not be overthrown by Elves alone. Also he didnt forgive the Feanorians for the kinslaying, of his own people, the people he used to rule.

If he had sent the Silmaril to the battle the mere sight of it would have been like waving a red cloth in the eyes of a bull, to the feanorians and they would have undoubtedly have attacked the force of Doriath. and i doubt Meadhros would be able to restrain himself never mind his brothers

His daughter has half Maia, he didnt think that any of the children of Illuvatar were good enough for her, plus he didnt wnt her grow even more fond of a mortal and tehn have to lose him and to suffer that pain, and he was willing to break his bond with here in order to keep her safe.

and there is nothing wrong with having pride in others, Luthien was the fairest child of the world and he was right to be proud of her. this s not an example of him being proud, but haveing pride for his daughter.


I like him

[Finrod Felagund]

I think you may have a point, Gil, I think Maedhros might could have restrained himself until after the battle, but his brothers... Maglor would help but the rest of them... nope
Oh and on the Beren issue, No father wants to imagine his daughter doing the things that brought her about in the first place. Our first gut reaction is to want her to die a virgin. Only through reason do we grudgingly accept that their happiness can revolve around a man. Imagine Thingol's pain: he imagines what it would be like to lose Melian and knows that Luthien will go through that pain because of Beren.

Then again he was probably just being a snob :thumbs:

[Gil Galad]

i dont think he was being a snob tho, its partly because of your virgin point but , ireally think there was more to it, id say he' prob have reacted the same to a suit from Fionwe (herald of Manwe, i got the name rite didnt i) he just didnt want to lose her

[Lessa]

Most fathers think that the man their daughter has chosen for herself is never good enough for her. I must admit I don't think I would be very happy to let my daughter roam the earth with anyone be they king prince or ordinary elf or mortal man.
I think the mistake Thingol made was too think that in the end he would listen to the good advice he had when he was younger. Age often makes people think they are invincible.

Lessa