Elves and Dwarves

[Elbereth]

IMO The Hobbit is the book most, for want of a better phrase, 'pro-dwarf' and the elves are not portrayed as well as they are in the other books. LOTR is also from a hobbit perspective so that shouldn't alter the views.
I was wondering if anyone else thought this or knew why it was different.
Any veiws?

It shows some elves as almost immature in a way, something we don't often see except for Sam's comment that some are as 'merry as children' esp the songs?

[Winyaél Greenleaf]

I did feel that the elven king was portrayed in a... not-so-dignified manner... He appears rather spoilt and demanding to me.

[Hobbit]

Yes Thranduil... Legolas' dad
He was very demanding and spoilt indeed... He just kept Orcrist for himself untill it was too late for Thorin...
It's strange that the woodelves from the Hobbit are portraiyed as spoilt and cruel partyanimals... while Legolas, who came from the same people, acted totally different n LotR

[Lalaith]

Well, I think we can chalk it up to the fact that Tolkien wrote The Hobbit specifically as a children's book. He had already created a great deal of the myth we see in The Silmarillion but there seems to be little connection. I believe that he often said that he would not have published The Hobbit as it stands for precisely the reason that it didn't fit in with his other works...

I like the idea that the Elves heard singing in Rivendell were Elflings - this would explain their childish behaviour. Elrond is quite close to the character we know (and love!!!!) in LoTR and the Dwarves were as stubborn as one would expect but other than that...

I think that Thranduil's character was unfortunately portrayed, to say the least, and the drunken butler really doesn't correspond to the more noble Elves we see elsewhere in Tolkien's writings...

[Tar-Ancalimë]

given that the story is from the viewpoint of the dwarves, how surprising is it really that the elves seemed far less dignified than in later books? I mean we only see what the dwarves (and bilbo their friend) wanted us to see, ie Thranduil's pettiness and the foolish butler. personally I prefer TLotR, but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that TH was required reading in my 10th grade english class lol

[Lhuntidomion]

Originally posted by Lalaith

I think that Thranduil's character was unfortunately portrayed, to say the least, and the drunken butler really doesn't correspond to the more noble Elves we see elsewhere in Tolkien's writings...

Hmm. Well the Elves in Tolkien's writings are mostly Noldorin and went to Valinor and back. They had more of a sense of pride. Plus originally the Mirkwood Elves were bad guys.

[Elbereth]

Lalaith - I love the idea of the singing elflings! That seems to fit very well with the rest

What also struck me was Bilbo writing this book and all his adventures with the dwarves and problems with elves etc and then he wants to visit the elves in LOTR (I know he doesn't mean mirkwood elves but it seemed odd regardless!)

[Lasgalen]

I don't think the Mirkwood Elves were bad guys. They were the only thing keeping the evils from the northeaster part of the forest.

[Lalaith]

Yes, I don't think Mirkwood Elves were the bad guys! The royal family were Sindarin, though not of, say, the lineage of Thingol or Celeborn - nevertheless, they were still grey Elves.

They ruled over Silvan Elves - the more ' rustic' sort of Elf...

The closest thing to a bad Elf is one of the Moriquendi - Dark Elves - they were the ones who refused the summons to Valinor and who may or may not have been corrupted/twisted into Orcs.

Not that this really affects The Hobbit!

It is important, however, to bear in mind that Mirkwood was once Greenwood the Great before the shadows came to Dol Guldur... Basically; the evil in Mirkwood was not of the Elves' making...

[Lasgalen]

Tolkien even mentions them as being good people.

[Aravail]

yeah, i dont think tehir bad guys either... they were just doing their job!

[Tirithel]

I kinda got the same sense of (please forgive me for saying this) snobbery in all four books. The reason I didn't get it in the Sil was probably that they dealt mostly with elves in that book. It seems to me that when they're in groups, elves are mostly (if not entirely) concerned with their own affairs. Maybe I'm just up to late, but phrases like, "Bilbo the hobbit on a pony- isn't it delicious!" just stick out in my mind. Am i completely out of left field here...am I just up past bedtime...:huh:

Could be...

[Elbereth]

Yes - I see what you mean
Elves are so complex really - 1 moment deadly serious and the next teasing

Legolas calling Gimli and Aragorn 'children' also springs to mind though perhaps I would say teasing rather than snobbery most of the time

[elvenrocker]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
personally I prefer TLotR, but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that TH was required reading in my 10th grade english class lol

I had to read it last year in gr9, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it. I'm like "woo! we get to read the hobbit," while the rest of the class groaned and complained. My teacher even labelled me the lotr expert. haha.

[Lasgalen]

I must have gone to the wrong school. We didn't have The Hobbit and required reading in any of my classes.

[Gil Galad]

i think there are too ways to explain this diference (i think both were mentioned ) one is that the book was for kids and so the more ludacris u made the charactors teh beter, drunken or spoilt Elves, little Dwarves being really proud. etc the more kids would like it.

or that we are not reading the Hobbit as it happened but as Bilbo wrote it, and thereforew from his point of view, and therefore, he would prob not be too keen on the Elves and maybe exagerate there flaws (or drunkenness) , but Elrond is well treated because he was nice to the young Hobbit

[Silverbridge]

From what I've read, the "Mirkwood Elves" never crossing over...had the cool stuff elves could do, but were still closer to man...and they had watched their kingdom fall under Sauron's evil . They were suspicious of everyone and very hardcore....unless they were partying...lol!