UT Group Reading - Discussion Thread - Túrin discussion underway.. (at last!)

[Lalaith]

Hello all, and sorry for the delay! This is the official thread from which Ru and I will lead discussions on UT.

For those of you who have receive the mail laying out the schedule, you may have noticed that I am dealing with the Elf-based stories, ( So, you'll be stuck with me for the first part of the book, I'm afraid! ;) )while Rumil will be leading the discussions based on the poor ol' Mortals.

So, if the interested parties could read the first chapter, I will be posting my own observations and opinions by next weekend.


Week 1: Of Tuor and His Coming To Gondolin
A little background: This was written in approximately 1951, many years after Tolkien wrote his first version of the Fall of Gondolin. Unfortunately, it stops just as we reach Gondolin (but, then, this is a book of unfinished tales...;)) Nevertheless, it covers a great many themes and gives us some wonderful insights into various beings and places of Middle earth, from Nevrast to Gondolin and from Valar to Mortals...

Happy Reading! :grin:

(And as a final reminder, if there is anyone who is taking part and hasn't made themselves known to me or Rumil, drop me an email (lalaith@warofthering.net). Cheers!)

[Lalaith]

Week 2: Ok., kids, let's get this show on the road! ;) lol ;)


In an effort to get a discussion under way, I will share a couple of my own observations and everyone feel free to chip in with your own comments or observations..

The Character of Tuor:

He seems to typify all that is great about Mortals but how much of that is due to his Elvish upbringing? This is the only mortal-born man to be counted amongst the Elves - and his experiences with his own kind (namely his captivity under Lorgan) can have done very little to improve his opinion of Men. What qualities of Men do we see in him? Steadfastness and strength spring to mind... any other suggestions?

Description of the Elves:

This is a pretty nifty chapter for telling us about the various levels of Elf... Tuor was brought up by Annael, a Grey Elf. Gelmir and Arminas are the next Elves to cross Tuor's path - ..he marvelled, for they were fairer and more fell to look upon, because of the light of their eyes, than any of the Elven folk that he had yet known. Our next encounter is with Voronwë. Tuor met the piercing glance of his sea-grey eyes, and knew that he was of the high folk of the Noldor. We then meet Elemmakil, who seems incredibly lordly and noble. Elemmakil is, in turn, overshadowed by Ecthelion. IMHO, the description of Ecthelion is too wonderful to pass up on!

And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand stids of crystal

And yet, despite this, Tuor overshadows even the might of Ecthelion, for he has been touched by the grace of Ulmo...
...which leads me rather nicely onto the next point!

Ulmo

He seems to be the only Vala we truly get to know... Even though The Silmarillion tells us how Oromë found the Elves at Cuiviénen, Ulmo is the one who seems to care most about the fate of the inhabitants of Middle earth. His power is indisputable... What are your opinions on him? Is he the only Vala who constantly tries to aid the Children of Ilúvatar? The only one who fulfils his duty?

Description of Gondolin

My last point, I promise!

This is the part of the story that completely sucks me in! The intricacies and secrecies of Gondolin become clear and, because I am rather nerdy, I couldn't help but notice a number of rather nice symbols...


The Fourth Gate: It shows an image of Thorondor, king of the eagles... A mark of respect for this important figure in Gondolin's history, perhaps, or a hint of foreshadowing of the events we come across in The Silmarillion?
The flowers growing near the Fifth Gate: uilos - "evermind", that knows no season and withers not - unlike Gondolin, which will fall, unlike Men who will die... except for Tuor...
The Fifth and Sixth Gates: The images of the Two Trees of Valinor - another mark of respect... but even as Telperion and Laurelin were destroyed by the evil intent of Morgoth, so too will these memorials be destroyed...


Any comments on any of these points? Any other observations? Any questions or difficulties with this chapter?

[Lasgalen]

I have a question. Why do the Elves aid Rian? After the nirnaeth I would think that the Elves would avoid men. Did they know she was of the Edain? If my memory serves me correctly, she had dark hair, so what clued in the Elves that she was Edain and not Easterling? (Tuor had not yet been born so they could not go by his golden hair)

[Ludibunda]

I was particularly struck that Tuor was in bondage for three years. This sounded an awful lot like Jesus, Gladiator, and even Sparticus. I also noted that his mother dies, like in Willow and Merlin. I guess these are parts of a traditional "Saga".
More similiaities: Gelmir says to Tuor: "Think not that our meeting was by chance; for the Dweller in the Deep moves many things in this land still." This sounds very much like Gandalf speaking to Bilbo in The Hobbit: "You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures & escapades were managed by mere luck? There are other forces at work in this world besides the will fo evil." Obvious, Tolkien had consistent themes running through his head.

And more - Tuor heard a fay-voice, a mournful sound and wanted nothing more than to follow it. That's very much like the Sirens in Homer.
Thank you for the description of the elves Lalaith. I didn't realize there was such a hierarchy.

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Week 2: Ok., kids, let's get this show on the road! ;) lol ;)



Ulmo

He seems to be the only Vala we truly get to know... Even though The Silmarillion tells us how Oromë found the Elves at Cuiviénen, Ulmo is the one who seems to care most about the fate of the inhabitants of Middle earth. His power is indisputable... What are your opinions on him? Is he the only Vala who constantly tries to aid the Children of Ilúvatar? The only one who fulfils his duty?
Ulmo is my fav Valar because he doesn't abandon the children of Iluvatar. He helps them even thought the rest of the Valar seem against it. Ulmo calls himself "a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed." Sounds like Ulmo is going against the will of Manwe and Mandos to help Tuor. I am just curious about why his vassal, Osse, did not follow him. Osse obeys the will of Mandos. Is this because Osse favored the Telerin? On that note, Voronwe's mother was Telerin. Does that have something to do with why he was the lone Elf to survive the sea?

[Lalaith]

Ah, sorry for my absence... I blame a hectic weekend... (and I'm saying nothing about champagne!;) )

I'll now try to address your questions and observations -in some kind of order! :grin:

Right, Lasgalen's first point about Elves aiding Men... I think that Easterlings looked very much different from the descendents of the Three Houses of the Edain - I'd need to look into it more closely though...

Ludibunda - I very much like your comparisons! Tolkien was certainly consistent in his themes and it's great to see the development... As for the Elves - I think it is interesting that there are 'levels' of Elves... that Ecthelion is almost as far ahead of Elemmakil, or the Sindar, than they are ahead of Tuor (if you follow...)

Lasgalen again! :) - While Tulkas is my favourite Vala (it's the laughing that seals it for me! lol) I think that Ulmo is the one Vala who seems to remember his role as a protector of the Children of Ilúvatar... You are quite right about him going against the will of Manwë. It seems to be his purpose.Also, Ossë is one of the Maia who served Melkor for a time - he was never one to be easily controlled but perhaps he did view Manwë as his overall lord... It's also a very interesting point about the Teleri... We all know that Aulë favoured the Noldor and Manwë appeared to prefer the Vanyar...so perhaps it is not completely unreasonable to imagine that Ossë favoured the Teleri...

Great discussion so far :thumbs:

[Amithrellas]

I've been having a bit of a time getting the different Elves straight and find myself referring back to The Sil quite a bit. In the introduction, Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle-earth" is mentioned as being frequently used by Christopher Tolkein himself...sounds like a must for me! lol
A few points:
• Is it significant that Tuor is raised by the Grey-elves in particular?
• I was laughing to myself when I read the translation of Gelmir's departing words "May the sun shine upon your path" upon which Tuor is left alone in "darkness deeper than night amid the roaring falls"
• The images woven around the Gates of the Noldor; the water (baptismal), the narrow, underground passage seem to speak to a re-birthing/ rite of passage as well as a precursor to finding the (even more secret) Gates of Gondolin.
• The part that the Valar play is a bit disturbing since it seems to negate free will altogether. Tuor is successful and gains entrance to Gondolin only because of Ulmo's intercession. Ulmo even chides him for being slow on the uptake "...long have I called thee unheard...". On the 'down' side, Túrin can't seem to get out of his own way because of the curse of Morgoth upon his father, a thing completely out of his control.

[Lasgalen]

It is significant that Tuor was raised by Elves (learning their ways, language). Grey Elves in particular? I don't know.

I am not sure that free will is negated. Tuor has the choice to listen to Ulmo or not to listen. He chooses to go on Ulmo's mission because, as Ulmo says, it is "that which thy heart hath ever sought, to find Turgon, and look upon the hidden city."

[Lalaith]

Perhaps the only significance of the Grey Elves is that they were closer to Mortals than the High Elves - less of a culture shock, so to speak! lol

I like your observations of the Gates of the Noldor, Amithrellas - very nice! The significance of water is something I hadn't thought of even though it seems to be a recurring theme in Tolkien's works...

I don't think that free will is negated; after all, Turgon refused to listen to Tuor's message from Ulmo...

[Amithrellas]

Ooooh, Lalaith...I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the part of the Grey-elves! :thumbs: That makes perfect sense.
As regards the Elves, I think there's very little without significance. When Lasgalen brought up the point @Rían, it struck me that it was specifically the Grey-elves and it must be for some reason.
On that note – I think the hierarchy of the Elves speaks to some hierarchy of the spiritual self. Something nagging at the back of my subconscious about these very deliberate levels, gates, images on the way into Gondolin. They're so detailed, as if they're described from an experience. Dante's inferno...only in reverse?
Free will? OK, not completely negated...but you have to admit, really compromised...

[Lasgalen]

I was just wondering some stuff. Do the Elves that guard the gates live there or do they work in shifts and go into the city proper when their shift is over? Also, why so many gates to protect from invaders when the city is open to the sky and can be attacked from above? Just curious

[Hobbit]

I think the city is solely protected for ground attacks becouse there was no force that could attack by air: the winged dragons weren't known before the war of wrath and it is still questionable if Balrogs had wings ;)
Only fell beast could attack Gondolin from the air in that time, and they didn't posses the strenght to withstand the arrows of the elves.
Besides Gondolin was protected by the eagles..
I have a question also: Gelmir, one of the two elves of Finarfins folk that crossed Tuor's path when he was searching for the gate of the Noldor, told Tuor that their meeting was not quoincidence but that the lord of the water still had power and that he must have had something to do with it.
Do you think Ulmo only led Tuor to the elves so that they could lead him to wisdom or do you think that Gelmir and Animas were also sent by Ulmo one way or the other (since Gelmir knew a lot about the future of Tuor and bout the will of Ulmo, the lord of the water might have spoken through him like he did with Tuor)
What do you think about this?

[Lasgalen]

Gelmir says "Yet I have heard that your House has the favour of the Lord of Waters." Unless this was common knowledge among the Noldor, I would say that you are right, Hobbit, Gelmir was somehow influenced by Ulmo.

[Lalaith]

Just popping in to say that I have been madly busy this week, but I will post the introduction to the next reading week at the weekend. I'll also get to everyone's observations then too!

After Friday (last exam) I will be back among you! So sorry!

[Lasgalen]

Are we still doing group reading? If you are too busy, that is ok. I would much rather read your fanfic than reread UT anyway.

[Ludibunda]

I'm just about done book 2 and definitey want to discuss Turin!
Just this afternoon he poked the ugly dragon in the belly! Fanfic is goo dtoo but I'm not ready to give up UT. Cuil Ruwen is finishing part 2 also.

[Lalaith]

I'm so so sorry for leaving you all hanging! I'll write up my chapter 2 discussion asap, I promise!!

(Just back from London and the Shire (Worcester! ;) ) so haven't had been near a puter for longer than half an hour at a time! So so so sorry! *grovels pathetically*)

[Ludibunda]

JUST finished Turin myself - can't wait to see what you've got Lalaith.

[Lalaith]

Enormous apologies again for the delay in this!

The next section to be read is II. Narn i Hîn Húrin - The Tale of the Children of Húrin We're reading as far as the section entitled Túrin Among The Outlaws.

I just want to check that everyone has read this much - and then I'll get posting!

A brief introduction: This entire tale is one of the most complex in Tolkien's myth. It was written as a narrative and as a siezeable chunk of alliterative verse, second in length only to the Lay of Leithian. There were a great many difficulties in the moulding of this tagic tale and Christopher Tolkien explained that his father enjoyed re-telling stories on many levels - we've already seen this in The Coming of Tuor to Gondolin. It certainly adds depth to the myth and I'm looking forward to getting this part of the discussion going!

Now, I know that a few of you have already read this and are positively champing at the bit to get going, but if the others could just confirm that they have read the section, I'll pop online later and start the discussion! ;) :hyper: ;)

[Lasgalen]

I have read to the end of Narn i Hin Hurin.

[Lalaith]

Part One of the Narn i Hîn Hurin Discussion

I have thought long and hard about how to structure this particular section, as it is positively teeming with information. What I have decided to do is cover it heading by heading, and I'll give my view on Túrin's character at the end... I'll make my own character descriptions, comparisons and plot observations as we go along. There will also be a couple of my impossibly-detailed opinions, for which I apologise profusely! ;) :hyper: ;)

So, this post will deal with: The Childhood of Túrin.

Characters:

Húrin and Morwen. The parents of Túrin - two very very different people, from utterly separate houses of the Edain. Húrin, of the House of Hador, was fair of face, golden-haired, strong in body and fiery of mood - an archetypal distance-runner (:p) He was very close to his brother and held the Noldor in high esteem. Morwen, however, was of the House of Bëor and was often called "Eledhwen" - Elf-sheen, or the Elven-fair. She was much sterner and possibly even prouder and if she held allegiance to any Elven kindred it was to the people of Thingol. Strange, isn't it, that the divisions between the Noldor and the Sindar are even seen among the Houses of Men? Húrin states that his heart does not lean to Thingol - and he feels foreboding at the mere mention of Doriath...

Huor and Rian. These characters are mentioned only in passing, but I find it fascinating to compare them with Túrin's parents... Huor is taller than all other Edain, save for his son (our friend Tuor, from the first part of UT ;) ) Rian is fair and mild; she delights in flowers and trees. With such a mother, it is perhaps understandable why Tuor felt so at ease with the Eldar.

Lalaith. Túrin's younger sister - she too was Elven fair but her life was cut short by the "Evil Breath" which affected Túrin, although he survived. The influence of Lalaith cannot be ignored in Túrin's life. It is an observation made by Húrin to Morwen that makes Túrin contemplate the differences between Elves and Men. Bearing in mind that he has never seen Elf-children, such a description can hardly fail to make a little boy rather curious: "Fair as an Elf-child is Lalaith but briefer, alas! And so fairer, maybe, or dearer" And, in later years, according to footnote #7 Always he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith

Sador (or Labadal). Another whose influence on Túrin's formative years cannot be underestimated. He tells Túrin a great deal about the Elves and he never pretends to be wiser than he is. He makes some fascinating observations about the Elves which I'll get to later on in this post. We see a wonderful side to Túrin's own character in his dealings with Sador, most especially when he gifts him the very Elven blade given to him by his father. Again, Húrin speaks wisely: "All three gifts were your own to give, Túrin: love, pity and the knife the least"

Random Observations, mainly character related:

First thing - note the timeline... Túrin is born in the year that Beren Erchamion entered Doriath and found Lúthien Tinúviel. (These sort of observations help me to put the story into context of both time and place.)

Húrin, we learn, is often away with the army of Fingon - and this is the only time young Túrin ever saw the Elves: ... and only once had he seen them, when King Fingon and many of his lords had ridden through Dor-lómin and passed over the bridge of Nen Lalaith, glittering in silver and white.

The comparison between Elves and Men is possibly best seen through the questions of Túrin as a child. He has already seen the death of his little sister, the one person who received most of his love. (He loved his mother, who spoke to him plainly, but was often confused by his father - who spoke in riddles - another legacy of the Elves, perhaps? Enigmatic with advise, playful and merry) He asks Sador what his father meant by comparing Lalaith to an Elf-child and he is told simply that Elves do not perish easily. Immediately, Túrin wishes to be one of the Eldar - why? So that his sister might come back and he would still be alive no matter how long she was away. Isn't that typical of us mortals? ;) Eternal life holds so much promise, even to a child who knows so little of the world.

Sador, I find, has the measure of the influence of Elves on Men. I'm going to quote verbatim now: "They are a fair folk and wonderful, and they have a power over the hearts of Men. And yet I think sometimes that it might have been better if we had never met them, but had walked in lowlier ways. For already they are ancient in knowledge; and they are proud and enduring. In their light we are dimmed, or we burn with too quick a flame, and the weight of our doom lies the heavier on us." Compare this to Húrin's opinion. He is not happy unless he is among the Elves! When Lalaith dies, he wishes that he might face the Black Enemy as his Lord Fingolfin did. Maybe his time in Gondolin had this effect on him, but Húrin is most avowedly an Elf-friend although his pride in his House is indisputable. How often does he remind Túrin that he is the heir to the House of Hador? Even when he rides to the Nirnaeth, he bids his Men salute his son for it is he for whom they are ultimately fighting, albeit at the side of an Elven king.

~*~

I think that will do to be going on with - I'll post about the next two sections - The Words of Húrin and Morgoth and The Departure of Túrin later on today. Please, jump in with your comments and observation - and hopefully by the time midweek rolls around we'll be able to piece together some form of commentary on the character of Túrin up until his time with the outlaws.

(And I'll try to make my posts a little shorter! ;) )

[Lasgalen]

Huor and Rian. These characters are mentioned only in passing, Rian was only married two months before Huor left for the Nirnaeth and she never saw him again. I found that so sad.

My main observation from this section is that Turin was already moody as a child. He was "slow to forget injustice or mockery". Something that will come up again later.

Túrin wishes to be one of the Eldar I noticed that not only does he tell Labadal that he wishes to be one of the Eldar, but also, just after that he says "I shall go as a soldier with an Elf-king as soon as I am able" I wonder if his earlier desires turned to resentment later.

[Mirkgirl]

The title is "The Childhood of Turin", but what childhood is it? He looks older, acts older, maybe even thinks older...

Also he's not happy. He keeps to himself and the only light in his life is Lalaith, but even with her he just watches, he doesn't participate... that's not a normal childhood
At that time all the warmth of his heart was for Lalaith his sister; but he played with her seldom, and he liked better to guard her unseen and to watch her...

At the same time his mother doesn't speak with him, his father isn't there most of the time and when he is all he does is confuse his child... The mother was a statue which taught Turin how to face the troubles inside, the father was a symbol of heroism. But the only living breathing influence in his life was Sador. Sador, not his mother, speaks with Turin about Lalaith. Sador, not his father, told him the battle tales.

And I have to say that Morwen's words "Yet I doubt if Sador deserves them. He is self-maimed by his own want of skill, and he is slow with his tasks, for he spends much time on trifles unbidden." have a piece of truth in them. Sador might have been a man of principle ("Give with a free hand, but give of your own."), but he's also a man who chooses the light way ("That is true; true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.") even though he already had a lesson that running from what should be done brings no good ("And there I got my hurt; for a man that flies from his fear may find that he has only taken a short cut to meet it.")... Turin doesn't become a coward, but on the contrary how many times has he jumped into the danger with no thought but to be one of the ones who aren't afraid to rush on the up-climbing?

Well that's the basic feeling this chapter gives me... I might be wrong, I might be right, I don't know

Now I'd like to pay attention to one moment which is a clue for what will happen afterwards
But Húrin mourned openly, and he took up his harp and would make a song of lamentation; but he could not, and he broke his harp, and going out he lifted up his hand towards the North, crying: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!"
He tries to create something beautiful, but when he fails he destroys the harp, the beautiful, the innocent harp and threatens the Enemy with things he cannot complete. Short version of his life isn't it?

Now here's something I have troubles interpreting... That night Túrin half-woke, and it seemed to him that his father and mother stood beside his bed, and looked down on him in the light of the candles that they held; but he could not see their faces. I can't stop associating with the dead marshes and the dead's lights.... I dont' think it's the right asso or at least I have no idea what to do with it so if someone has any ideas please share... What was Tolkien 'trying' to tell us with this odd episode?

Also one interesting observation... what did Urwen mean? -wen is female suffix and the Silm says about Ur
ur- 'heat, be hot' in Urulóki; cf. Urimë and Urui, Quenya and Sindarin names of the eighth month of the year (The Lord of the Rings Appendix D).
The heat girl? Doomed to live bright but fast?

Talking about long posts... sorry

[Lalaith]

Fantastic opinions, Las and Mirky - some great observations there! :thumbs:

Onward? The Words of Húrin and Morgoth

This, IMO, is a vital scene in many ways - not just because Morgoth speaks the Doom of the Children of Húrin but also because it gives us some insight into the ways of the Valar. Húrin comes across as being incredibly wise - and, as far as I know, this is the only direct interaction between Man and Vala other than Tuor and Ulmo and isn't it a contrast?

There's a thread floating around in the Silmarillion Forum about who was the mightier - Manwë or Morgoth? Here is our answer; <i>Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself and wasted it in your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar, and there your chain awaits you.</a> (Húrin's words of foresight to Morgoth.)

I tend to maintain that Húrin is one of the most tragic characters in Tolkien - and I believe that this section proves my point when you take later events into account... He is so brave, so steadfast, so loyal... and he is tormented most cruelly. Perhaps more so even than poor Gelmir, who we'll meet later....

Opinions? Comments? :)

[Ludibunda]

I have been reading right along with everyone's posts and it's adding a ton to my understanding - thanks for the observations and insights. What surprised me the most was how much the death of Turin resembled the whole Oedipus dilemna and Romeo & Juliet. I've read about all the Norse influence but not the influence of Shakespeare. I'm sure we'll get more into this later. Anyways, I'm a little less verbal that the rest of you mad Tolkien fans (ha! Ha!) But I'm here!

[Lalaith]

The Departure of Túrin

What I notice most about this section is, quite simply, bravery and steadfastness, seen in many ways. Morwen has to be brave for her people, the people of her husband and, let's be frank, she does put the fear of God - or perhaps Eru! ;) - into the Easterlings. They don't trust Elves and they certainly don't trust a woman said to have dealings with the white fiends. We also see her bravery when she realises that Túrin would be safer elsewhere - but here, her inherent stubbornness prevents her from accompanying him. Yes, the road would be dangerous for a pregnant woman but that is not what stays her - it's the fact that she does not want to be an alms-guest, not even of a king.

The wisdom of Sador strikes me again - "False hopes are more dangerous than fears"

The birth of Nienor - her name - "Mourning"... It rather sums it up - the Year of Lamentation draws to a close and so many more unnumbered tears lie before this family...

At last, we reach Doriath - and an altogether different breed of Elf to the Noldor. How signficant is it that the first Elf they meet is none other than Beleg - the greatest woodsmen of those days?

And how Thingol has changed, eh? From the days of being rather snooty about Mortals to claiming Túrin as his son, unless Húrin should come to re-stake his claim.

Now, perhaps this is the point where I should say that Morwen never really appeals to me as a character. Maybe it's her wilfulness that just seems misplaced in one so wise. Maybe it's the way she seemed so cold when Túrin left. Of course, that's all part of who she is but you have to wonder what would have happened had she listened to Húrin's words? Had she travelled with Túrin to Doriath? Had she returned with Thingol's messengers?

Túrin in Doriath.

In the previous section we hear that [i]the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven.[i] In this section a great many more strands are woven in... From Túrin's friendship with Beleg to his self-imposed exile...

Now, as no doubt you all know, I'm thrilled to be talking about Elves! ;) lol But - yes, there's a "but"... in this section I am so disappointed by the character of certain Elves! Until now, we're given the impression that they're superior to Mortals in every way, in strength, in wisdom, etc... and then we meet Saeros.

JRRT changed Saeros' background repeatedly - but let's assume that Saeros was one of the Nandor. They are the "lowest class" of Elf but still far ahead of Mortals. One would think that they were above petty jealousies and snide remarks. Unfortunately not... Saeros meets an incredibly nasty end - which does not put Túrin in a good light, IMHO, even after he has been exonerated by Nellas... - but he is a thoroughly unpleasant Elf - and his friendship with Daeron does him no favours, as far as I'm concerned. Daeron, of course, betrayed Lúthien - twice, I believe. Saeros is rude to Túrin and he makes the biggest error of judgment one can make... How? By insulting Túrin's mother, of course... (A schoolboy insult in the 21st century - and it seems not even mythical Elves are beyond it! ;) )

Túrin's own stubbornness comes to play - he refuses to listen to Beleg and just... leaves... Is it just me, or does this man have very low self-worth? lol Ok, it's not just me - but this is something that we'll see again... He is stubborn and doesn't see himself as necessarily deserving great things. He associates with Mortals far more than his father did, and certainly much more than Tuor did... Did this shape his ultimately tragic end?