Rohirrim armour and weapons

[Steve the Great]

Which historical armour-design do you think is in connection with rohirrim mails and helmets (and arms)?
http://www.warofthering.net/pp321/data/522/16RohanArmour.jpg
Pic1 (http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&pid=6262&orderby=titleA)

Some people have said, thier culture partly resemble to the vikings (for example it is true to their swords and shields), but their armour seems to be similar to for example the sarmatians' . (see same pages bellow)
Link1 (http://jam.nyirbone.hu/kiallit/szarmata/fegyver.htm)
Link2 (http://members.tripod.com/great-bulgaria/Central-Asian-Nomads-Unite/Sarmatia/)

[Winyaél Greenleaf]

Based on what I've seen from Pic 1, the helm does seem to be of Viking style. Here's (http://www.armory.net/items/ws9774.jpg) a pic of a Viking Helm. However, I would agree that other parts of the armor seem to be of Sarmatian style.

[Steve the Great]

This (http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/large/LOTR-EN05127.html) helm looks like a bit the Viking Helm you've posted.
IMHO in these pics they have Saramatian (maybe) style armour:
Pic1 (http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/twotowers/large/LOTR-EN04269.html)
Pic2 (http://members.lycos.co.uk/stg09/pics/rohan1.png)

[Gil Galad]

the vikings used very silmilar armour to the Rohirrim, as it was light (useful on horseback and in sailing) but the viings used more heavy swords and axes then the rohirim

[Nilion Elentano]

Yes the scales are very smilar to the Sarmatians, but it's not a really good idea for people that spend their lives on horse back, look at any people that existed like that, the Mongols for example, and you will realise that that sort of armour is very uncomfortable for riding, the weapons however are fine in that viking style, and the spears even more, over the sword the viking weapon of preference were Javelins and Spears, so I like the analogy made there.

[Steve the Great]

I have a bit... disgusting question about the riders' spear (sorry for that in advance), maybe you can aswere it.
The rohirrim spear isn't solid, it has 2 eyes in it (sorry, but I don't know the correct terminology), as you can see in this picture (http://www.warofthering.net/pp321/showphoto.php?photo=90&papass=&sort=1&thecat=522).
Is this construction practical? I mean was it possible, that the rider stabbed his spear into his enemy, and the weapon caught in the enemy's body through the eyes.
So what's your opinion: is this possible, or I 've got too bloody fanatsy?

However, this weapon has a beautiful design.

[Nilion Elentano]

I know what you mean, it is not a common design on spears, but it is made like that for two reasons, number one, the cuts (usually have no technical names, it depends on the metal smith that make them) on the barbed blade are for making it lighter, and second, I pressume that they wanted to make it like Arrow broadheads that tend to spin faster in the air, and when cutting the flesh they virtually slice the target, so it has two advantages, the only con is that it is easy to break if the Spear is used for bludgeoning, as for your question about getting the spear caught in the enemy's body it is almost impossible, for two reasons, a spear head that size, and at flying speed is too powerful to get stuck, so it will most likely pierce through and a quarter of the spear will go inside the body (a really scary prospect to think what a spear well thrown can do).
An dyes it is beautifully designed, shame that at the moment my comp is having problems to load pictures very well.
Do you have any other pics that you can share?:thumbs:

[Steve the Great]

Thank you for the answer. I thought that certain parts of bones (e.g. a broken rib) can catch on these cuts or eyes of the spear. But I don't know the real functioning of spears (e.g. wheter they can break into two a rib), just speculate :blush:
These photos are in the Photo-forum of WotR, under Weapons title.

[Nilion Elentano]

Yes indeed, you have to consider factors like the added weight of the shaft, and how it is thrown, there's little chance that anyone can survive a spear wound, and it would be really bad luck more than anything else to lose a spear like that.
Anytime you want here I will be available for any information, thanks for the hint about the photos on the photo section.:thumbs:

[Catz]

yeah......and its a nice touch for a horse riding people to have that weight saving feature on the spear blade, since when fighting on horseback, you want to keep things as light as possble................and if you think a spear thrown from on foot is bad, just factor in the increase in power youd get from the speed of a moving horse............theyd be like bullets
the scale armour has always bothered me a bit tho............its not something that most peoples who fought from horseback in that sort of raid style would have developed...............leather armour yes............chain mail yes............in fact anything that was reasonably light........and in the case of chain mail, flexible........(the chinese actually made paper armour that could turn an arrow ;) ) tho i guess the scale is lighter AND more flexible than plate
:catz:

[Nilion Elentano]

Indeed Cat, the factor of the horse speed adds to the accelaration of it, but the power always depends on your shoulders, it's a realy good point tho.
as for the armour, a horseman armour should alays be as you say leather and chaimail (bear in mind that chainmail is not light at all) it is the best choice for light cavalry at least, the scales I will never be fond of, it is so easy to piece through, and to destroy it, the only thing they are good at is at deflecting blows in you hit them full in the scales.
Hey I would like to read something about that chinese paper armour you talk about, sounds really interesting.:thumbs:

[Orc]

If memory serves, the chinese armour was a laminate of paper, so I'm guessing that most of the protection would have come from whatever adhesive was used rather than the paper itself. I would guess that it would be a bit like paper mache where it's easy to form and sets up hard.

[Catz]

not always.........the armour didnt require lamination with adhesive at all, tho that was used at some periods.......in fact that often reduced its ability to resist penetration, since it created a cohesive whole which was then able to be pentrated by a sharp implement...........the ability to resist penetration actually comes from the structure of paper itself, which is in fact a mass of interlocking fibres in a mesh structure.........pile these, one on top of the other and you have a remarkably effective barrier to penetration.......try it yourself with a pile of paper sheets.........and it was very light.........comparatively speaking
and to get back on topic ;) sorry orc:blush: scale armour would be pretty uncomfortable on horseback given the way the body moves when riding..........there is much more compression and expansion of the spine when riding, in a vertical motion that you simply dont get on foot, and scale just isnt designed to flex like that, nor would it allow the wearer the freedom to bend forward from the waist as one would need to do, if fighting from horseback.........chainmail allows that freedom.........and ofc. in a discussion of armour, the word light is relative LOL
:catz:

[MerlintheMad]

Scale armor is the work of people who want to make armor fast; and also by people who lack the skill and tools to make proper ring mail. There is nothing light weight about scale, in fact it is somewhat heavier than ring mail. Scale keeps arrows out better than ring mail, but a mounted warrior would be at risk against an opponet on foot with a spear, because he could thrust upward from below and get his spear point under the scales: scale was far better against a downward stroke (with sword or axe) from an opponent on horseback, or if both were on foot.

The armor in TLOTR movies looks great. But it isn't very close to what Tolkien described: he said that the Rohirrim had the look of the warriors in the Bayeux Tapestry, i.e. English and French of the mid 11th century.

The armor of the Rohirrim in the movies is more Gothic than viking: that "eyeglasses" helmet with cheek pieces is early dark ages, influenced heavily by the Roman helmets in vogue during the late empire.

[Steve the Great]

Yeah, I've read the Tolkien-letter concerning the armour and clothing in an another forum. I paste it , maybe you'll find it not too off-topic:
(and many thanks to amanibhavam to find and post it to the "original" message board :) )

"Question 4. I do not know the detail of clothing. I visualize with great clarity and detail scenery and 'natural' objects, but not artefacts. Pauline Baynes drew her inspiration for F. Giles largely from mediaeval MS. drawings? except for the knights (who are a bit 'King-Arthurish') the style seems to fit well enough. Except that males, especially in northern parts such as the Shire, would wear breeches, whether hidden by a cloak or long mantle, or merely accompanied by a tunic.
I have no doubt that in the area envisaged by my story (which is large) the 'dress' of various peoples, Men and others, was much diversified in the Third Age, according to climate, and inherited custom. As was our world, even if we only consider Europe and the Mediterranean and the very near 'East' (or South), before the victory in our time of the least lovely style of dress (especially for males and 'neuters') which recorded history reveals? a victory that is still going on, even among those who most hate the lands of its origin. The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings.
The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' ? the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan ? but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no oven 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle."

And 2 pics from the Bayeux Tapestry:
pic1 (http://hastings1066.com/bayeux29.shtml)
pic2 (http://hastings1066.com/bayeux33.shtml)

[MerlintheMad]

"Not medieaval, in our sense", tells me that Tolkien was referring to the high middle ages of platemail and full heraldry: the Norman Conquest period is generally preferred as the end of the "dark ages", ergo, not medieval. But altho Tolkien seemed less than certain in these matters, still, where he has provided direction toward a "look" for his races and nations, I think we should have started there in the first place: hence, MY Rohirrim have a decidedly "norman" look about them. And I think PJ would have done better to make Gondor's army look more Byzantine, with lamellar and mail, and horsehair crests on open helmets, rather than looking like a bunch of Italian condottieri in full plate.

[Steve the Great]

What do you think about the round shiled of rohirrim? Is it really useful for defending in cavalry charges? I mean, most of the knight's shields I saw were "triangle-shaped" (sorry, I don't know the exact expression)

[MerlintheMad]

I liked the look of the Rohirrim armor in the movies. But to ask about the effectiveness of the round shields is rather ironic: since narry a one (that I have spotted at any rate) even uses his shield in the famous Pelennor fields charge: all those nifty round shields are hanging across the backs of the warriors or are dangling from their saddles, utterly wasted. I don't let that niggling detail spoil the over all visual satisfaction of that glorious charge tho :)

But to answer your question: the round shield was the earlier design common in Europe until the "kite-shaped" shield: a long-pointed triangular shield with a rounded top, that first appears in Europe c. 950 AD: brought by the Vikings who were in Byzantine employ: it is first of all a cavalry shield; but on foot it is very effective also. As mail armor increased in common usage to cover the limbs (and not just a shirt to the elbows and knees), the shield was no longer as useful at the full size, and it began to "shrink" as the body armor became more and more effective. By c. 1200, the long shield had largely disappeared, to be replaced by the "heater" (so-called because it's triangular shape is similar to a flat-iron). The round shield continued to be used and never entirely went out of style; the Scots used it almost exclusively right through the 18th century; and the Italian militia infantry used it throughout the Renaissance: round shields were always the most common shield in Spain and North Africa. The advantage of a round shield is its consistent shape: it doesn't get "smaller" if turned one way or the other: its chief disadvantage compared with longer, narrower shields, is that it only covers the torso, and to be large enough to easily protect the lower legs it has to be too large in diameter to be handy. The Rohirrim armor of the movies suggests that those warriors were very similar to Goths or early Frankish "knights" of the so-called dark ages: and in that period the round shield was virtually the only kind in use.

[Elfdaughter]

I can only speak from a light fighter's point of view - I get into heavy fighting - but bucklers like the rohirrim shield are lighter than a normal full length shield (still heavy though!) and are much more easier to wield, and deflect blows. A parry with a shield leaves the chest of the opponent open, and it's easier to make a thrust to their chest, or head. From a horse (as a light fighter, I can only speak from watching the heavies!) it seems that a longer shield is less manouverable, and when you need to be on your toes, as in fencing, a buckler is a lot easier to wield.

[MerlintheMad]

But let me guess: in your fighting groups, you are not allowed to strike at the legs: this is a critical difference. In any sport fighting where you cannot strike at the legs, I would also choose nothing but a round shield/buckler.

[Elfdaughter]

Yes, we do strike at the legs. That's where low parries and movement come in.

[MerlintheMad]

Well, that is interesting; because most fighting clubs do not allow such strikes - at least over HERE (in the US of A). I understand that in Europe and the British Isles, that most fighting clubs use real steel, and pull their strokes to avoid doing serious injury. This is hardly realistic either: and such would also give advantage to the use of a lighter and round shield.

[Elfdaughter]

We do use pulls and cuts, as you say, but we also use thrusts - and they can be used anywhere, not just to the head and chest. they are use on the legs as well. they can be used on the arms, but they are rather difficult to hit, most of the time!!

[IronHills Dwarf]

Most people have been able to trace certain elements of the PJ film trilogy Rohirrim to various historical peoples. Well I can now make that picture a little more clear, as we've all seen the spears of the Rohirrim in the films have distinctive cutouts on the blades. Well there is a historical precedent for this from the tough fighters of ancient Scotland - the Picts!

Lookie here.

http://www.albawest.com/swords.html