applying the tengwar to elvish

[Telumehtar]

would u apply the tengwar to sindarin or quenya or both? *confused*

[coin]

apply it to both but use different tengwar for the different languages (there are also different types used for the different modes of quenya and sindarin - eg. beleriand, classical etc...)

If you want more info email me: methos@mailbox.co.za

[Telumehtar]

thanx

[Élion]

Greetings, I have encountered a few difficulties while trying to write Quenya with Tengwar :read:

Y: When do you use nr. 23 (anna) with two underdots? When do you use nr. 35 (yanta)? When do you simply use two under- or overdots? :huh:

H: When do you use nr. 11 (harma) and when nr. 33 (hyarmen)? Or even halla (no nr.)?

N: What's the difference between nr. 17 (númen) and nr. 19 (noldo)?

R: When to use nr. 21 (óre) and when nr. 25 (rómen)?

V: nr. 22 (vala) or nr. 24 (vilya)?

W: nr 36 (úre) or nr 24 (wilya)?

Please help! I'm desperate... mecry Thanks in advance :thumbs:

[Élion]

Come on, somebody must know the answer to these questions... Right? :boohoo:

[Mánalinya]

I am most definately not an expert on tengwar (though I'm working on that...), however, I will do my best to help.

1) When following a consonant, the "y" is represented as two dots either below or above the previous letter. As for the actual letters, 23 (anna) is used when "y" is consonantal i.e. yet, and 35 (yanta) is used when "y" is a vowel i.e. sky.

2) No. 33 (hyarmen) is "h", and the only one that I've ever used. Is there another "h"? No. 11 (which I know by the name of Aha) I have understood to represent "sh". I have no idea what "halla" is.

3) No. 17 (numen) is used as the 'normal' "n" sound i.e. nose. 19 (noldo) is the 'nasal' "n", as in "thing", or "thank".

4) 25 (romen) is used when followed by a vowel, and 21 (ore) is used when not.

4) 22 (vala) is "v", 24 (vilya/wilya) is "w"

5) As for "wilya vs. ure", I have not discovered a definate difference between the two. I prefer ure, and this is what I've always used, but I believe that either/or are acceptable in any circumstance.

Understand that there are many differences for letter value between different languages. For example, while in Quenya, no. 14 (ampa) represents "mp", in English it represents "v". As well, in Quenya no 13 (anto) represents "nt", whereas in English it is "th" (the soft "th", as in "the"). These are just a couple of the differences I know of.
Like I said, I am not an expert. It is possible I am mistaken on several accounts, but I have done research, and what I have come to understand has been attested (most of it, anyway).
If anyone notices any errors in what I have said, please point it out to me.

I hope this helped you, Elion. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to be of service.

Linya :)

[Élion]

Thanks a lot, that really did help :thumbs:

Only a few questions remain...

1) When is Y a vowel and when a constant in Quenya? Can two underdots ".." be used to represent both vowel and constant? :huh:

2) at: http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/quenya.htm nr. 11 is said to be: "kh" rather than "sh". Which is intresting for I haven't ever seen a Quenya word with "kh"... Also it is called Aha or Harma, not Akha nor Kharma... :o

Take a look at nr. 12, which is said to mean "khw", while it is called Hwesta, rather then Khwesta... It makes me suspect that sometimes "k" is not written, but spoken non the less... If this is true than how to know which Quenya "h-words" are actually "kh-words" and which are truely "h-words"...? :read:

I'm taking all this trouble because I would really like an alternative to nr. 33 hyarmen, for I think it's a very ugly letter, and it's hell placing vowels above it... pfbbt

[Mánalinya]

1) When 'y' makes any of these three sounds; the long i (i.e. sky), the short i (i.e. rhythm), or the long e (i.e. really). Any other time it is a consonant. There are words that are slightly more difficult, such as "buy". In this case, I would probably write "y" as a vowel, because it is still included in the long 'i' sound. I believe that the two dots are only used when the "y" is consonantal. Take note that the two dots are only used in the Quenya-style tengwar (about which I also discovered that yes, anna is used when the 'y' is not following a consonant, and the dots are placed below it). In English-style, in every case, one of the two letters (anna or yanta) is used (without any dots).

2) As for number 11, this is an example of Tolkien's "Qenya" (ancient), and modern Quenya. In the beginning stages of his language, there were many differences in pronunciation, and writing, from what we now know. The name he first gave it, Qenya, is an example. In the early stages, "q" represtented both 'q' and 'u', the letter 'u' was never actually written. However, he obviously changed his mind in later years.
This letter (aha/harma) underwent the same change. In early Qenya it did represent "kh", but in modern, LOTR Quenya, this came to mean "sh".

3) I think for 12 (hwesta) it is the same thing. Originally, it's value was "khw", but its "modernized" meaning is "hw". Also, no. 4 (quesse), was "kw" in early Qenya, but is simply "k" in modern Quenya.

I agree with you completely. Hyarmen is a very ugly letter. In my opinion it doesn't fit at all well with what is otherwise such a beautiful writing system. I havn't come across another letter to replace it, but one thing I have done to help is that I place the vowel in front of it, rather than above. Speaking of vowels, do you put them above the consonant they come before (this is the English style), or do you put them over the consonant they come after (this is Quenya style).
Anyway, I hope my answers are sufficient. If I didn't explain anything well enough, or if you have more questions, you're welcome to pm me. Good luck.

Linya