Why was Arwen cut from Helm's Deep

[Finrod Felagund]

Was it because of the overwhelming fan response or because she looked foolish on horseback?

[Lady Ashley]

Probably your first guess, Finrod. In fact, I think that was mentioned in that article concerning movies and the internet...

[Melian]

I think that there was a lot of criticism about turning Arwen into another Zeena, Warrior Princess; so they toned the fighting agle down a bit. I saw early pictures of her riding Asfalof at Helm's Deep, so I know there was some footage of her.

[Mirkgirl]

I think both... plus... I think PJ won more audience for his film because of the cheesy Arwen/Aragorn scenes.... Balance between the Zeena and the future noble housewife... Same, but a lot cheaper, happens to Eowyn who wants to fight the wargs but silently accepts to stay with the women in HD battle pfbbt

[Periantari Andruil]

Arwen at Helm's Deep would be horrible in my opinion...i think she already has too many scenes in TTT (and FOTR) pfbbt ... i'm glad fans decided to say no to that change by PJ...
her role has already been expanded enough already to fill in the fact that she weds Aragorn in ROTK so i, for one, am glad that she wasn't put in to fight in Helm's Deep... besides, she is no warrior elven princess in the book version, was she?

[Rock26]

No, I don't think so. I can't recall her fighting in the books at all. Nor even mention of her ever fighting. But I could be wrong.

[Lady Ashley]

No, she never fought anywhere. She didn't even have a speaking part until ROTK. The only "warrior princess" in her family was Luthien Tinuviel and even SHE didn't use a sword.

[Periantari Andruil]

so Arwen definitely shouldn't even been thought of being put in Helm's Deep...it certainly is a big deviation from the book if PJ did that...
I'm glad that fans protested so that it didn't make the final cut...
IMO, she already has too many scenes :mmmm:

[Gwaihir]

I am glad, too. :) I would have been really mad if she did fight at Helms Deep. It'd be like "What on earth is SHE doing there?" and it would be difficult to think of what to do with her after the battle. lol Fans would have been really mad!

[King_of_Angmar]

Arwen being cut out of Helm's Deep was due to both the
mentioned reasons: the great protest of the fans and the
unability of Lip Tyler to play the role properly. According to Peter
Jackson she was not able to play the fighting Arwen (no wonder.....pfbbt )

But although all her scenes were cut out of the movie at Helm's
Deep - you still can see her if you look very close.

At the end of the battle, when Theoden and the others ride out
to fight: there is Theoden at the front, close after him on the
right side is a blonde elve on a white horse - THAT was Arwen!!
It was impossible in that scene to cut her out completely, so
they just coloured her hair blonde.
But they should have taken away her breasts too......lol

[Lady Ashley]

You must have been seeing Legolas...I saw Arwen with DARK hair. But yes, you can see her...white horse, burgandy clothes, dark hair. Ya hafta look really really quick...and be ready with that remote ;)

And prolly another reason was the length. Goodness knows how long a reunion with Aragorn would have taken! :elfeek: pfbbt

[King_of_Angmar]

@Lady Ashley: No, I didn't see Legolas - he follows behind, in
fourth place. There are actually TWO blonde elves in that
scene.

But Arwen was made blonde only for that scenen, so you are
right with the dark-haired Arwen. She is there, although I didn't
see her myself yet (- and I am not sure, if I want to.....:naughty: )

[legolastheawesome]

ohhh i would have hated Arwen fighting!!

It would have taken too much out of Eowyn's shieldmaiden spirit that would be revealed later on in ROTK

and that would have sucked.

[Arwen of Imladris]

Originally posted by legolastheawesome
ohhh i would have hated Arwen fighting!!

It would have taken too much out of Eowyn's shieldmaiden spirit that would be revealed later on in ROTK

and that would have sucked.

yeah thats really true.

I have looked at pics of arwen at HD
and also alittle after the Eomer and Gandalf
charge you can see a flash of pink/burgandi
and you have to look really close :o cuz the sceen
is only about 2seconds long

[Amithrellas]

You're kidding! Arwen at Helm's Deep??? :o
That fortress would've gotten awfully crowded what with Eowyn being there as well!! Imagine the potential for a cat fight :catz: lol

[Ithielnor]

[i]Lady Ashley
Ya hafta look really really quick...and be ready with that remote
Man! What theater do you go to? I want one of those! ;) j/k

But a cat fight between Eowyn and Arwen would have (partially)made up for her being at HD. ;)

[Tirithel]

Something tells me that PJ wouldn't have hesitated to put in a little spat between Arwen and Eowyn...nothing physical of course (can you imagine the uproar from cultists like us? lol ) but a subtle confrontation where Eowyn learns of Aragorn's relationship to her...yes, I can see it now. OH GOD! What if she ends up in the EE?!?!?

[elen0sila]

I just watched some of the appendices on the EE, and think that the decision to leave Arwen out of HD was a sound one. It would have been absolutely wrong for her character. Even though I don't particularly care for her in the movie (that's an understatement) after watching the documentary, I felt that the way the ended up presenting the Arwen-Aragorn relationship was probably the best way. I'm a lot more tolerant of Arwen now...if she had ended up at HD I probably wouldn't watch TTT, after everything else (Faramir!) that happened with it. :)

[Lady Arwen]

well im a huuuge Arwen fan and the more she is in the films the better it is for me but still im glad that she wasnt at HD...mainly because in the films there are already too many ppl fighting while she is there to show that courage and bravery arent only shown to physical strenght or battles but also in ohter ways. So i think that was a good choice to leave her out of that part even tho i wish it wasnt becose some ppl had nothing better to do than bashing Liv but for real story-wise reasons.

[ImDaMom]

This thread amazes me. After 3 years of the films, massive amounts of awards, critical acclaim, fan acclaim, and behind the scenes info that explained why Arwen was changed, then changed back (and NOT because Liv couldn't act but because the character just did not work as a warrior) , some people STILL can't let it go!!! My goodness, ladies and gentlemen, give it a rest!! lol lol

[Amithrellas]

C'mon, IDM, don't hedge... tell us how you really feel... hee hee

Whatever the reason Arwen is not in Helm's Deep, it was a good move on PJ's part -- NOT that I don't like Liv. Just would create more problems than it would solve :p

[elen0sila]

while she is there to show that courage and bravery arent only shown to physical strenght or battles but also in ohter ways

That is exactly what they were saying in the documentary, and it really impressed me. I hadn't thought about it before like that, and this new perspective will really help me to enjoy some of her scenes more. So, you are so right! :up:

[Lady Arwen]

thanks!i didnt remember about them sayin this in the documentary...its something i immediately thought the first time i heard her saying "id rather share one lifetime with you than face all the ages of this world alone"...there something clicked and i fell in love with her character! remember that in the Tale of A/A Tolkien says that she looked over him in her thoughts and i think thats what they tried to convey in that scene after he falls off the cliff and she brings him back to life and this also shows her strenght...waiting for him against all odds and givin up her immortality and the chance of being reunited wiht her relatives...it takes lots of courage to do this ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Cheers to Lady Arwen. :grin:

I personally am glad that PJ abandonned that idea. The idea is absolutely revolting to me. I can say positively that the character would not have been Tolkien's Arwen. PJ made a sound decision to portray the difficulty of her choice...a choice that was made only once before in the history of Middle Earth...and as a person who loves the Histories of Middle Earth...I can certainly appreciate that storyline. Especially with the understanding of why the union between an elf and a mortal is not encouraged.

[The Hobbit]

I have to agree! Arwen would ahve been awful in HD! Like her dad would even let her go in the first place! I strongly dislike Arwen and i would have HATED that...especially since in the books she is such a small character. I ADORE the movies, but the only thing i didn't like was how PJ played up Arwen's character.
The Hobbit

[Lady Galadriel]

I have to agree! Arwen would ahve been awful in HD! Like her dad would even let her go in the first place! I strongly dislike Arwen and i would have HATED that...especially since in the books she is such a small character. I ADORE the movies, but the only thing i didn't like was how PJ played up Arwen's character.
The Hobbit

Bravo! Bravo! That was a very insightful and constructive response. I am sure that there is some useful information, perhaps, that can be extracted from it. Blimey, if only someone would hand me a microscope. :rolleyes:

[Lady Arwen]

Lady Gal, i had a look with my microscope and guess what??i could find no intelligent aspects in that remark!!well, if people are blind enough to not see Arwen's importance in the story I dont know what we can do...its not that just cos a character doesnt appear like in every page of the book than this character is not important...and anyway if you are not able to read between the lines, well at least dont come here and bash some character you know NOTHING about...why dont you re-read LOTR and count how many times Tolkien says that Aragorn sighed or was wrapped in some fair memory whenever he is alone and thinking of Rivendell/Lothlorien/Cerin Amroth? or in the Tale of A/A Elrond said "my daughter shall not diminish her grace for no lesser man than the king of both Gondor and Arnor"...so, now, why do you think that Aragorn decided to leave aside the ranger and become who he was born to be??!since you are sooooo educated about the books you should know these things, dont you think?

and btw, the films have been done, the ppl liked them, the critics did as well so pls stop criticising someone who is in the films for 15 minutes out of 10 hours!

[LothlorienKiki]

Ahem, my small opinion on the matter: I am glad she wasn't placed in HD. I am an Arwen fan, and while I know many of my friends, who like myself, are long time fans of LotR, were upset that Arwen took up more scenes, more space, and took Glorfindel's place, but I'm thinking: be quiet! Many of the people who saw these films have NOT read the books. How are they to know about Arwen and Aragorn's relationship? PJ needed a way to show that Arwen and Aragorn were in love- he couldn't simply put in what we know already. Having said this, I am still glad she wasn't in HD. The story was a bit off kilter in the movie, but oh well. I still enjoyed the movie as it was presented. Which is what was meant to be achieved. How can millions of people be wrong? And also, millions of people won't even KNOW that she was in there.

[The Hobbit]

oooo excellent point Lothlorienkiki...i DID like how PJ did the love scene's between Aragorn and Arwen...those were sweet! And i wished Tolkien would have done more of those two together in the book. Sorry Lady Arwen, i met no offense! I've read the books TONS and you're right. What i should have said was that i didn't like how she was the one who saved Frodo at the fords and the whole her fate was tied to the ring. To me that didn't make any sense. Especially since she didn't have a ring. But since i'm not an arwen fan i might be missing something. Does anyone else get this? Cuz i could never figure that part out...was it becuase she decided not to go to the Grey Havens? But other elves did too... hhmm... any idea's Lady Arwen?

[The Hobbit]

Lady Gal, i had a look with my microscope and guess what??i could find no intelligent aspects in that remark!!well, if people are blind enough to not see Arwen's importance in the story I dont know what we can do...its not that just cos a character doesnt appear like in every page of the book than this character is not important...and anyway if you are not able to read between the lines, well at least dont come here and bash some character you know NOTHING about...why dont you re-read LOTR and count how many times Tolkien says that Aragorn sighed or was wrapped in some fair memory whenever he is alone and thinking of Rivendell/Lothlorien/Cerin Amroth? or in the Tale of A/A Elrond said "my daughter shall not diminish her grace for no lesser man than the king of both Gondor and Arnor"...so, now, why do you think that Aragorn decided to leave aside the ranger and become who he was born to be??!since you are sooooo educated about the books you should know these things, dont you think?

and btw, the films have been done, the ppl liked them, the critics did as well so pls stop criticising someone who is in the films for 15 minutes out of 10 hours!


Oh one other thing. Sorry about bashing her...i know how i would feel if someone bashed Frodo or Merry! So a million aplogize...i'll try to be more nice next time!
The Hobbit

[Lady Arwen]

ok apologies accepted...as for replacing Glorfindel try to understand, it would have been an extra-expense for the ppl involved in makin the movies to hire another actor to play someone for so short a part and they had to introduce her and her relationship with Aragorn so that is why she replaced Glorfindel.
As for saving Frodo..you know when she says "what the grace has given to me, give it to him" or something like that while saving Frodo?well in the commentaries PJ and Fran and Philippa explain that they used it to replace that scene in the book when she gives Frodo that jewel and tells him to go to the Havens instead of her...you know when she and Aragorn are sittin by the fountain in Gondor and singing some Elvish song and she feels Frodo's pain...
as for the fate tied to the one of the ring, well i have no idea there!!perhaps because if Frodo didnt destroy the Ring, Aragorn couldnt have become King, and couldnt marry her and perhaps he would have even died and she would have died as well since her choice was already made!but its just my guessing!

and sorry if i was "a bit" harsh...my friends call me Lembas Spice cos i get a bit spicy when people say bad things on things i love and care a lot about!!Blame it on the Sicilian hot blood! ;)

[ImDaMom]

"Arwen is dying" To Elrond, an immortal, Arwen giving up her immortality clearly means that she is now mortal, and, as such, dying (we all are, everyday of our lives)
"As Sauron's power grows, hers wanes" Again, she's now mortal, and much of her physical strength is dissapating. And as Elrond sees her as dying, he would also consider her strength as an immortal leaving her.
"Arwen's fate is now tied to the fate of the ring" Well, since she's not leaving MIddle Earth, if Sauron succeeds, she will die. If Sauron fails, she will live her life with Aragorn. So her fate is indeed tied to the ring.

I think a lot of it comes down to Elrond being quite the drama elf. But, he's just basically lost his daughter, so we should cut him a little slack if he wants to over dramatize the situation for Aragorn, besides hoping it will inspire Aragorn to "put aside the Ranger"

[Lady Luthien]

PJ didn't really "play up" Arwen's character as much as most people think he did. Most of the extra stuff(besides the Ford scene) came from the appendixes. Arwen may have been a relatively under-developed character in the story-line itself, but a great wealth of information is provided in the appendixes about her meeting with Aragorn, as well as the tension between Elrond and Aragorn. That wasn't made up. I don't see the harm in expanding something that was already there. Glorfindel was in no way a major character to the story, so it's not like taking him out was the end of the world. If you're going to have a love story between two characters, you need to develop both characters in order for it to mean anything to the audience. But of course it was not necessary to include her in Helm's Deep...that is completely against Arwen's character, and that's not to say that Liv couldn't have acted it well...I'm sure she could have.

[elen0sila]

as for the fate tied to the one of the ring, well i have no idea there!!perhaps because if Frodo didnt destroy the Ring, Aragorn couldnt have become King, and couldnt marry her and perhaps he would have even died and she would have died as well since her choice was already made!but its just my guessing!


By that argument, almost anyone's fate was "tied to the ring." I resent the fact that Arwen is given this false importance over everyone else, but I think you're right that it could just be Elrond being a "Drama Elf." Lol, that's nicely put. Arwen's fate wasn't "tied to the ring" in the books because, duh, Aragorn didn't need yet another reason to defeat Sauron. So I probably dislike that the most of any element in her character in the movies. :(

[ImDaMom]

Of course, everyone's fate is tied to the ring. And, in the BOOKS, Aragorn was not in need of any more motivation. But, these are the movies. We didn't know all of the backstory that bookies know from the appendices. We never heard about Cerin Amroth, and his profound love for Arwen. We didn't know about Elrond insisting that Arwen only marry the King of both Gondor and Arnor. So, by adding this little element (and for Eru's sake, it's such a SMALL part of the story), the novice LOTR fan, who has not read the books, gets the idea that Aragorn's love for Arwen is not easy, and as she sacrifices for him, he also must endure great hardship for her.

I've said it before, but here's Mom on her soapbox again (and I promise, no more- my knees are far too old to keep climbing up here lol )....For every book fanatic (and I am proud to be one of them) there are 15 who have never read the books, but are still in love with the films, and helped them become the major hits that they are. PJ could not in any way satisfy me, you, and the other 10 million who have read the books- getting every scene we wanted, each detail exactly as we've read them (countless times, I might add), and every nuance perfect. My Aragorn is MINE. Your Aragorn is YOURS. They may be exactly alike, but more likely, they are different. Who's idea should PJ have used? Why "resent" anything done? We got the movies. We've seen Middle Earth. We've met Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship. And, we love them. Why else would this site, and so many others survive? *IDM hops down* Ok I'm done.

[Lady Arwen]

well said IDM!

and who knows why with so many ohter characters who have taken on aspects that are not in the books (i.e. a certain girl called Eowyn who is barely in TTT books but in the film she is just all over the place, and yet you dont see Arwen's fans complaining about this like you do with Arwen elen0sila so pls stop it)why i wonder only Arwen's character is being so criticised and bashed?!(i dont need an answer btw!its just a rethoric question).
so pls pls pls stay this madness and stop this useless talk!!they ended shootin these films a year ago and they are there now so you cant change em, try to understand this!

[ImDaMom]

Well stated, Lady A!

Arwen's fate wasn't "tied to the ring" in the books because, duh, Aragorn didn't need yet another reason to defeat Sauron. So I probably dislike that the most of any element in her character in the movies. :(

I'm just a little confused here (not an uncommon occurence :p )- why dislike an aspect of Arwen's character because of something Aragorn thought? Arwen didn't say anything about her fate and the ring, it was Elrond.

[Lady Arwen]

thank you IDM!
and as for your question...well...its clear, i think its just part of a Liv bashing made look like a critique to the films...some people still think that Liv wrote her own script i guess so they just go around criticising her and that character without realising that its not her fault!

[Lady Galadriel]

Of course, everyone's fate is tied to the ring. And, in the BOOKS, Aragorn was not in need of any more motivation. But, these are the movies. We didn't know all of the backstory that bookies know from the appendices. We never heard about Cerin Amroth, and his profound love for Arwen. We didn't know about Elrond insisting that Arwen only marry the King of both Gondor and Arnor. So, by adding this little element (and for Eru's sake, it's such a SMALL part of the story), the novice LOTR fan, who has not read the books, gets the idea that Aragorn's love for Arwen is not easy, and as she sacrifices for him, he also must endure great hardship for her.

I've said it before, but here's Mom on her soapbox again (and I promise, no more- my knees are far too old to keep climbing up here lol )....For every book fanatic (and I am proud to be one of them) there are 15 who have never read the books, but are still in love with the films, and helped them become the major hits that they are. PJ could not in any way satisfy me, you, and the other 10 million who have read the books- getting every scene we wanted, each detail exactly as we've read them (countless times, I might add), and every nuance perfect. My Aragorn is MINE. Your Aragorn is YOURS. They may be exactly alike, but more likely, they are different. Who's idea should PJ have used? Why "resent" anything done? We got the movies. We've seen Middle Earth. We've met Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship. And, we love them. Why else would this site, and so many others survive? *IDM hops down* Ok I'm done.

**bows to ImDaMom** That was brilliantly said.

I had to share a comment that one of my co-worker's made yesterday. He is a non-bookie, but nevertheless a HUGE fan of LOTR. He said that he has visited some of these sites and he cannot believe how geekish we are...he said that the things we complain about is beyond him. As a non-bookie, he said PJ did an EXCELLENT job with the films and hopefully he echoes the sentiments of all the other non-bookies out there.

[Lady Arwen]

yes i think he echoes them well because also my friend who is a non bookie absolutely loves the films and well when i tell my friends about our sites, forums and arguments they usually stare at me as if i came from some other planet!!

[ImDaMom]

My dear spouse is a non-bookie, as are my children. All love the movies, and cannot figure out why people worry about things like this. A coworker (non-bookie) has also said that she's glad some of these things were added, because it gave her a better understanding of the films.

Elen0sila- Please don't feel like we've ganged up on you, but what I think we're all trying to say is enjoy the movies as the movies. Enjoy the books as the books. Understand that changes/adjustments/adaptations must be made to change a written medium to a film, and sometimes what works on paper doesn't work on film.

[Lady Galadriel]

" I resent the fact that Arwen is given this false importance over everyone else, but I think you're right that it could just be Elrond being a "Drama Elf." Lol, that's nicely put. Arwen's fate wasn't "tied to the ring" in the books because, duh, Aragorn didn't need yet another reason to defeat Sauron. So I probably dislike that the most of any element in her character in the movies. :(

Lets see, in FOTR, when Gandalf read Isildur's scroll, he distinctly said that Isildur wrote,

"All those who follow in my bloodline fate will be tied to this ring."

I stand corrected if it was not so. I have not watched it in months but I am pretty sure thats what Gandalf read. Anyway, I guess that means Aragorn's fate is tied to the ring. By simple deduction, when in ROTK Arwen gave up her immortality to bind herself to Aragorn, then her fate become tied to his. Hence, since his fate is tied to the ring, then hers become tied to the ring.

And yes, everyone in M/E was threatened by Sauron...but there is also the irrefutable fact that Sauron's passionate hatred was bent on the Gondorians. Why? It could be that it began with Isildur...but I suspect not. Sauron hated those people from since the days of Numenor. Hated them with an indescribable passion, it seemed. So, I would say when Boromir said in FOTR that his people protected the other lands...he was kinda telling the truth. Sauron was meddling with them for countless years. It must have been so wearisome. Poor Gondor.

[Lady Arwen]

Lady Gal, the quote was right...well the meaning of the quote!!Isildur did say (well write)that the fate of his heirs was going to be bound to the ring...and as it has already been said, being Aragorn one of the heirs and being Arwen his wife, she was going to be tied to that fate too...anyway all the explanations have already been given so i think all this should end here!

[ImDaMom]

And Sauron also had a long standing dislike of the elves, no doubt influenced by his teacher, Morgoth, so elves would especially bear the brunt of Sauron's anger.

[Lady Luthien]

While all of the points made above are valid, and most of us understand why Elrond said that Arwen's fate is tied to the ring, I DON'T understand why she has to suddenly start dying from it. Frodo has the ring, and he's taking it to be destroyed...it has not yet fallen into enemy hands...why would that physically harm Arwen?? Elves are strong...they do not fall into weakness just because a war is being fought. I get the correlation between the ring and Arwen's FATE, but I fail to understand the connection between Arwen's physical health and the ring's position at that time(NOT in the hands of the enemy). I understand that "the light of the Eldar" is leaving her so it may make her slightly weaker than she was before when she was purely immortal, but why would that make her start to die? That seems to be a bit overdone to me. You can continue to live as a mortal as well, not for as long of a time as elves. I guess I'm just missing something...I'm not trying to criticize the scene, I'm just trying to understand it.

[Lady Galadriel]

Lady Luthien, you do have a valid point. Arwen turning mortal, imo, represents her becoming like Elros/Numenoreans in the beginning of time. Though not immortal, they were most akin to the elves in that they never got sick, etc. And yes, I did not like that line either. I actually cringed when I first heard it. But then, the only theory I could devise to credit that change, is the one that I explained earlier.

And if you think about it, in the book, I do not believe that Isildur explicitly said that all those who follow in his bloodline fate will be tied to the ring. Sounds like that line was added for a purpose. It also could be that I am reading a lot into it. lol But hey, it makes a plausible support for that "uncomfortable" line in ROTK>.

[Lady Luthien]

lol True. Actually it's not the line "Arwen's fate is tied to the ring"(or some variation of that) that bothers me, it's the line..."Arwen is dying", and then they show her sprawled out pitifully on a bed, pale faced, mouth open, looking like she's been ill with some fatal epidemic and bed ridden for months lol I almost wanted to roll my eyes when I saw that...I mean come on we have enough problems already, don't we now? :p But again, I'm not bashing PJ for it. He probably did it for the non-bookies. It's not a huge deal to me, just a bit unecessary.

[elen0sila]

You're right; it probably made more sense for people who hadn't read the books. But what kind of excuse is that? They should have read them! :P Just kidding. No, I'm sure that making it accessible to a non-fan audience was really important.

One thing I try to remind myself of is that if the movies *hadn't* had these concession that made them popular with non-LotR-freaks they wouldn't have been as sucessful ... or, horrors, wouldn't have been completed! Can you imagine what would have happened if they made FotR and it was a financial flop and they *quit*?!?

[Lady Arwen]

about "Arwen is dieing"...didnt Elves die when they were overcame by the sorrow and grief?so maybe that is one explanation...but im just guessing.

Elen0sila...i had never read the books before watching FOTR and only after seeing Aragorn and Arwen's story i began reading them because it was a wonderful story but yet i couldnt understand some of the things considering the short time they had spent to explain it...i cared also about the other stories but A/A's was really the one that caught my attention the most.

[Lady Galadriel]

lol True. Actually it's not the line "Arwen's fate is tied to the ring"(or some variation of that) that bothers me, it's the line..."Arwen is dying", and then they show her sprawled out pitifully on a bed, pale faced, mouth open, looking like she's been ill with some fatal epidemic and bed ridden for months lol

**cringes** Yes. I DID NOT like that at all. I have heard an interesting explanation over at CoE but I forgot what it was. However, I think it was something to do with the effect evil has on elves...like in FOTR when Gandalf spoke in the language of Mordor...remember the reaction Elrond, Legolas and the other elves had? They closed their eyes as if they were greatly affected...well perhaps some explanation could be deduced from that.

Also, remember in ROTK when Legolas felt Sauron..the eye of the enemy is moving...

..and he immediately felt Sauron when he appeared in the palantir. Well, perhaps some explanation could be derived from that as well.

[Lady Arwen]

Lady Gal, thats a bit risky to take Legolas and one of his quotes for a serious discussion about Elves and Evil!!you know he always says the first thing that comes to his mind!lol! sorry, just kidding!

anyway, Elrond really got sad and also upset with Gandalf when he spoke in the black speech so that must be a reason!

[ImDaMom]

Just a quick question- How many of us have given up our immortality so we KNOW how it affects a person? lol The effect of evil (as above) seems like a good explanation, plus, the part where we see her "sprawled out pitifully on a bed, pale faced, mouth open, looking like she's been ill" is in Aragorn's dream, so it may just be HIS interpretation of the fears he has for her. Haven't we all worried about things and inflated problems?

[Lady Luthien]

I really can't criticize anything about the movie here, can I? Of course I rarely feel the need to about such a masterpiece anyway ;) lol You do have a good point, IDM: Of course I don't know what REALLY should happen, I just base my presumptions on my knowledge of elves and Tolkien, which I guess isn't that deep anyhow, so I will argue no further :p And like I said earlier, it's not a huge deal ;) But one other question: how do we know that shot is from Aragorn's dream? It just looked like a shot of what was really happening to me...:huh:

[Lady Luthien]

Ok this will sound really stupid...but I feel the need to say it anyway. After my first sentence, I meant to put a laughing smilie because I asked it as a joke, and without it, it seems rude and sarcastic. Just thought I'd add that in lol Ok I'm leaving now, really...

[Naru`vatar]

I can see it in front of me: Arwen running around at Helms Deep, killing Uruks as if they where bugs or somthing. Sure Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli had a bit of this Superhero thing, none of them getting hurt. Arwen would have been a real pain, seeing her kill 10 Uruks without getting hurt or anything. I, like most of us are probably glad that we wont have to see this. Seeing Eowyn fighting around was a diffrent thing....really ok.

[Lady Arwen]

sorry, why should Eowyn be better at fightin than Arwen??for your consideration, Eowyn immediately got her shield smashed by the witchking and if it wasnt for Merry...bye bye Eowyn...

[Isáwien]

In response to Lady Arwen;
Éowyn was brought up in a warriorlike community. She was brought up with horseback riding and sword practicing.
Arwen wasn't brought up that way, and by saying so I do not intend to bash on her or anything. Arwen doesn't have to fight for us to like her. That's not part of her character, and it's totally okay with us.
Legolas didn't have to play a harp and sing like an angel for us to like him, right? (Although I wouldn't have had anything against it ;))

Besides, this thread is called 'Why was Arwen cut from Helm's Deep' and not 'Why Éowyn needed Merry in order to kick the Witchking's a**' ;)

:wiggle:

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, none of us know what Arwen is capable of…both in the book and movie. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien said that elvish women did not really battle unless they had to. Actually, you know what, when I get home I will quote it directly from the book.

Does Galadriel look like a warrior? Well, just so you guys know, she fought in the kinslaying

[ImDaMom]

And she was a powerful force in the early days, including the kinslaying. And let us not forget Luthien's strength in battle.

(and Lady L...we would never take you as rude or sarcastic (Those are adjectives most often assigned to ME lol lol )...I think we all take this thread with a smile) I took it as from a dream of Aragorn's because (if I have the scene right) he wakes up after the Evenstar falls to the ground.

[Naru`vatar]

Ok...maybe Eowyn didnt stand a chance against the witch-king but I wasnt refering to these " Evil heroes of the film" (Witchking, Lurtz, Gothmog, etc..)
I was only refering to normal foes: Orcs, Haradrim, Easterlings etc I bet Eowyn could a least bring down some of them. See my point now Lady Arwen?

[Lady Galadriel]

Listen, we all know Eowyn is a capable warrior.

The point is, there is so little written about Arwen's character that we cannot know for sure what she is capable of. I will re-state that it was a good decision to forfeit that story line. As an avid Arwen supporter, it would be quite repulsive to me.

As Pippin told Faramir in ROTK SE, "Faramir's strength is of a different kind." Arwen's strength is of a different kind. There is one thing that we are certain of, because Tolkien says it...she was wise and knowledgable...imo, she would make an excellent Queen of Gondor....and if its not clear to any of you why...pay close attention to Gandalf description of Gondor's past during the Decline of Gondor . It was a beautiful addition to the film for those who do not know about Gondor's esteemed past....the kings of Old.

[Isáwien]

What? Does Gandalf talk about the old Kings of Gondor? I absolutely love the history of Gondor! Can't wait to see it! :grin:

And, I agree with Lady Gal. We actually don't know what Arwen was capable of. Gimli might have been an excellent Salsa-dancer for all we know, and Théoden might have been beating the hell out of puppies in his spare time. The point is, what we don't know, we aren't able to dig in to as much as with the things we do know :cool:

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes…there is all this additional talk of Numenor. I absolutely love it…I am a huge fan of the Numenoreans…even though they sometimes infuriated me. The additions, imo, tells the viewer more about Gondor’s/Numenor’s history. They weren’t a society of warriors…their strength lied in their wisdom…and that is brought out in the extended conversations. Ex: Denethor accuses Faramir of wanting to emulate the kings of old in WISDOM, grace and dignity.

[Isáwien]

Ooh, I can't wait to see that! But poor, poor Faz :( There's no need for him to emulate anything. He's already a man of great wisdom, grace and dignity. :nono:
Faramir Rocks! :rock:

[ImDaMom]

Gimli might have been an excellent Salsa-dancer for all we know, and Théoden might have been beating the hell out of puppies in his spare time. The point is, what we don't know, we aren't able to dig in to as much as with the things we do know :cool:


Thanks, Isa...now I have an image of Gimli dancing and Theoden beating puppies..and I don't know which is more disturbing!! lol

Anyway, this is both the great strength and great weakness of this fantasy. We all want to know more about these people (and I too love the idea of the Numenoreans) yet, there's nothing more we CAN learn, so it's up to our individual imaginations. And we apply our own thoughts to these characters. Makes for very interesting discussion, and one that will never end!

[Isáwien]

Sorry, Im. lol Now you know what's going on in my head... I think the image of Théoden and the puppies is the most disturbing of the two... Quite pervy, isn't it? *gets an image of Théoden beating puppies wearing a "Kiss the King of Rohan"-apron while singing Greensleaves*

Hmm... I think I'll shut up now.

[Lady Arwen]

well Naru'vatar i might get your point but you didnt put it in a very nice way in your first post!so weight your words the next time and keep the bashing to yourself.

and Isàwien, i didnt mean to say that Eowyn couldnt stand a chance with the WK...im sorry if i havent been too nice ... its just htat it looks like ppl can say bad and false things on Arwen and get away with it but as soon as i try to say somethin true about Eowyn ppl just read my words the wrong way!
so i apologise if my words have hurted you!i didnt mean to!i just tend to get carried away when it gets to silly and pointless Arwen vs Eowyn talks!

[ImDaMom]

First- let's all take a nice deep breath......Feel better???

I think JRR gave us 2 very different women, both strong, both capable, both attractive, and desireable. Both had their roles in life, and reached their destinys. In other words, both had very very postive impacts on Middle Earth, and trying to value one over the other, or say that one was better because she was a queen, or the other was better because she was a warrior is a pointless, useless exercise! This is not a thread of Arwen vs Eowyn, (and PLEASE let's not start one) but rather a discussion of why PJ made a change in his early vision of Arwen.
OK....I'm done. :grin:

[Isáwien]

Aw, it's ok Lady Arwen :) I tend to get a little carried away when someone bashes my favourite chars too. It's so irritating, don't you think? In the end you find yourself defending your favourite character with bare fists and a bloodstained sword... :battle: Hmm...
Anyway, my point is that Arwen and Éowyn are two very different characters and they don't really have anything to fight over. In the end Arwen got her Aragorn and Éowyn got Faramir. We Arwen and Éowyn-fans shouldn't have to compete with each other all the time. I'm sure we can get along perfectly :)

Thanks for being a peacemaker, ImDaMom. :grin: I feel so much better now after the whole breathing-thing. :wiggle:

[Lady Galadriel]

I agree with ImDaMom.

The thing is, last week we finally began a constructive discussion regarding PJ's changes to the character Arwen and so on and so forth. But it just takes one destructive comment to derail an interesting discussion. I know what Lady Arwen feels, because like her, I am an avid Arwen supporter and believe me, it can get frustrating at times to read the comments made by some posters. The best decision is probably to ignore them...they are afterall, one person or another's opinion, but sometimes it is hard not to make a stand for Arwen's character. For some reason, people see her as some pampered princess who does what daddy says. But, if you stop to think about it, why is Aragorn called Aragorn, son of Arathorn, or Denethor, son of Ecthelion, or Eomer, son of Eomund? To me, it conveys respect/pride of the father...why shouldnt Arwen listen to or respect her father? Afterall, Tolkien wrote that there was great love between the two and I think that is what PJ was trying to depict in the storyline he took. Tolkien himself wrote that most grievous among the sorrows of the Third Age is the parting between these two. And while it might not be interesting to some, it was interesting to others of us. Thank Valar he kept Arwen where she should rightly be and abandon the warrior storyline.

[Naru`vatar]

Guess I also got a bit carried away also. We often do that dont we? lol
Anyway. The way I see it is that Arwen comes from a noble and peaceful culture. Sure we all know that Arwen also have a sword of her own but i doubt she has used it often in battle. Eowyn on the other hand comes from a warrior culture (Like the northern vikings) where both men and women are used to handle a sword and from my point of view, the warriors of Rohan seems to carry their weapons wherever they go. So my simple answer is: Eowyn is more used to war and weapons that Arwen is. (Hope I didnt insult any Arwen fans now)

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, this thread is NOT about the comparison between Arwen and Eowyn. It is about why Arwen was cut from Helm's Deep.


There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death,even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than any special power that went with their womanhood.

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven men and elven women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.

The neri is male and the nissi female.

I repeat, there is so little information about Arwen, we do not know what she was capable of. Her mother, Celebrian was kidnapped and tortured by orcs...I would say that is another good reason to be able to defend herself.